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Discussion post points CA leak


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#51
RapatoR

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I am quite surprised that you guys are perplexed at no changes for CSM squads. We know that new models for them are on the way, so it is sensible they would be accompanied by new datasheet and new rules/stratagems/formations.
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#52
Juggernut

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Possible, but by no means guaranteed. A bit too exhausted to put much thought into it, but have any new sculpts for old units gotten new rules/datasheets?

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#53
Tyriks

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Possible, but by no means guaranteed. A bit too exhausted to put much thought into it, but have any new sculpts for old units gotten new rules/datasheets?


The cryptek in Forgebane is the only one I can think of. I don't know how likely it is.

#54
Iron_Within

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A question for me is - with the Cultist price hike, is the Cultist 40 man blobs still viable (I use Iron Warriors with the cold and bitter warlord trait) or has it just become too expensive? Is it better to load up on small 10 man units and rely on armour that has been buffed via points drops? I mean a dakka defiler (Havoc/Reaper autocannon) is now 136 points, which isn't bad for a tanky model. is that worth it?

 

My "competitive" army has now just gone up 86 points as a result of the changes, so I'm looking to make changes.


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#55
Raven1

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I dont play cultists, i prefer my tzaangors and pink horrors, but i do agree the changes are perplexing. I didnt know warp talons only had one attack. That is truely awful for a unit like that.

It would seem GW is setting the stage for a CSM primarising, but i truely doubt it. I think it is right up GW's alley to keep them unusable and not understand why cultists are popular.

Like if a unit choice without an honest box of models is more popular than your core faction choice you done messed up.
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#56
Sonoftherubric21

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A question for me is - with the Cultist price hike, is the Cultist 40 man blobs still viable (I use Iron Warriors with the cold and bitter warlord trait) or has it just become too expensive? Is it better to load up on small 10 man units and rely on armour that has been buffed via points drops? I mean a dakka defiler (Havoc/Reaper autocannon) is now 136 points, which isn't bad for a tanky model. is that worth it?

 

My "competitive" army has now just gone up 86 points as a result of the changes, so I'm looking to make changes.

 

Max unit cultist is 35 I believe, so 175 points for the 35 cultists. 

Still a good price point. I also use lots of space marines and don't care at all for competitive metas so I cannot relate, almost all of my list designs went down *DRASTICALLY* in cost. I consider that a huge balancing step in the right direction. 

My Black Legion (35 cultists) and Thousand Sons (20 cultists), have a single unit to either front line disrupt / pushout deepstrikers or to hold home objectives depending on list build.  The Iron warriors trait (and Abbadons) are phenomenal for stopping a big weakness for cultists. Id imagine they are worth 5 points each given that everything else in the Chaos list drastically reduced (dreads, walkers, several special weapon reductions) which should probably even out costs fairly well. 

My Thousand Sons use tons of daemon engines, I found at their previous points cost they were decent, they all dropped in cost significantly (to the tune of 20-40 each depending on load out) and to me that makes them incredibly potent units. Defilers already had good options, great survivability for their relative cost, and hit like freight-trains in melee and they got CHEAPER? Yikes.  

 

Helbrutes are decent, their price point now reflects their relative fragility on the table with solid weapon load outs.  You could alter your build to include more walkers or engines both of which seem better now. 



#57
Wayniac

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Cultist max is 40.

 

I still think it might be beneficial to have a big blob.  Multiple units if you want to just get the tax over with, but the big blob lets you buff it better.  Although, multiple squads does mean the enemy has to split fire to wipe them out.


Edited by Wayniac, 09 December 2018 - 05:19 PM.

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#58
RapatoR

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Possible, but by no means guaranteed. A bit too exhausted to put much thought into it, but have any new sculpts for old units gotten new rules/datasheets?

Calgar
Edit: Also fiends and hounds had some changes as far as I know.

Edited by RapatoR, 09 December 2018 - 06:31 PM.

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#59
Wayniac

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Possible, but by no means guaranteed. A bit too exhausted to put much thought into it, but have any new sculpts for old units gotten new rules/datasheets?

Calgar
Edit: Also fiends and hounds had some changes as far as I know.

 

 

New Calgar is technically a new unit.


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#60
old git

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What about ForgeWorld stuff? The only thing I've heard of is the Kytan gatling cannon getting a significant reduction.



#61
Drudge Dreadnought

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What about ForgeWorld stuff? The only thing I've heard of is the Kytan gatling cannon getting a significant reduction.

 

Yeah, it's down 104pts. Might be worth using now that its significantly cheaper than Lord of Skulls.


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#62
McElMcNinja

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If certain units cost more because they have access to certain stratagems then they should get rid of stratagems and just make them part of the units abilities. CP and stratagems are what hurts the game right now. Players tend to bring certain chaff units just to get CP's takes away from bringing what they would/want to actually bring.
The lists I want to take have next to zero CP, but to even be close to competitive I have to change a lot. It had taken the fun out of it for me till recently. The last 2 tournaments I have attended I've gone 3-7, but have had a blast playing. If it wasn't for that and winning best painted in both I probably wound not keep going.

#63
Trevak Dal

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I guess chaos terminators cost more because of access to everybody having a combiweapon and having infinite ammo on the underslung gun, essentially giving you a Terminator with a special weapon x5-10, and since most Combi weapons got a discount, that's what I'd guess it's about.

Vanilla loyalists get storm Bolter/powerfist (sword on Sargent...for reasons), lightning claws or thunderhammer stormshield, with a codex compliant 1 heavy weapon per 5 guys (like we have...)

Terminator base ranged weaponry shouldn't be just storm/twinlinked bolters, it should maybe be something like heavy bolters. IDK.

Them chosen though...kinda thinking about some for my world eaters.

I think warp talons (unjustly) have only 1 attack because gw over values close combat and they are our flying terminators (they get the 5++ save of a Terminator with lightning claws instead of the 2+ armor save like nipple Bois) the pair of lightning claws give +1 attack (they should be 2 base).

Edited by Trevak Dal, 10 December 2018 - 05:25 AM.

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#64
Trevak Dal

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I guess the issue across the board are, what are troop space marines really worth? What's their purpose?

Im talking basic bitch space marines, chaos marines, assault marines (which should be troops). Scrub t3 units outshoot, out fight and hold objectives better than them.

I think that sternguard/chosen seem where they want you to put your specials, and devestators are where they want you to concentrate your heavy, with tactical/CSM being a place you can project tactical board control presence with a special/heavy or 2 specials/2 heavies.

I think we need to try and use space marines differently, as a special forces army, because the Green Berets and the SAS can't stand toe to toe against 10 :cussloads of militia or regular army units, they hit concentrated targets to accomplish missions.

Figuring that out is just the tricky part, we got to let go of our guys being super soldiers (that would be Custodates), our guys are Special Forces, stuff like storm troopers are like...well ww1/2 German storm troopers or Airborne Rangers, space marines are like Green Berets or SAS.

Side note, if I could give scions/Stormtroopers an option to all throw grenades twice and then charge, GW would sell sell me a lot of models...

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#65
Drudge Dreadnought

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I guess chaos terminators cost more because of access to everybody having a combiweapon and having infinite ammo on the underslung gun, essentially giving you a Terminator with a special weapon x5-10, and since most Combi weapons got a discount, that's what I'd guess it's about.

Vanilla loyalists get storm Bolter/powerfist (sword on Sargent...for reasons), lightning claws or thunderhammer stormshield, with a codex compliant 1 heavy weapon per 5 guys (like we have...)

Terminator base ranged weaponry shouldn't be just storm/twinlinked bolters, it should maybe be something like heavy bolters. IDK.

Them chosen though...kinda thinking about some for my world eaters.

I think warp talons (unjustly) have only 1 attack because gw over values close combat and they are our flying terminators (they get the 5++ save of a Terminator with lightning claws instead of the 2+ armor save like nipple Bois) the pair of lightning claws give +1 attack (they should be 2 base).

 

It can't be this because Space Wolf termies can also get combi weapons (and storm shields, and more options than chaos) but are also 23pts.


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#66
Kythnos

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Do we expect an FAQ for CA in about two weeks after release as with the codices? If they get enough feedback about the Termi costs that might get changed as a printing error.
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#67
Iron_Within

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I guess chaos terminators cost more because of access to everybody having a combiweapon and having infinite ammo on the underslung gun, essentially giving you a Terminator with a special weapon x5-10, and since most Combi weapons got a discount, that's what I'd guess it's about.

However space wolf terminators get access to Combi and they are 23 points
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#68
1000 Sons

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Cultists are a pain, and needed a boost. 100+ cultists, conga lined with abaddon, rerolling hits, no morale, using tide of traitors, veterans, able to reroll wounds, and forward operatives. One of the most annoying lists to deal with.

Cheaper helbrutes and spawn is what I am excited about. A bunch of thousand sons spawn being able to choose their effect is awesome.
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#69
Iron_Within

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Do we expect an FAQ for CA in about two weeks after release as with the codices? If they get enough feedback about the Termi costs that might get changed as a printing error.

I just emailed, it's got to be a mistake, I'm emailing separately about cultists and chaos space marines. I'd suggest everyone do similar as well. The email address is:

40KFAQ@gwplc.com
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#70
ChazSexington

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I guess chaos terminators cost more because of access to everybody having a combiweapon and having infinite ammo on the underslung gun, essentially giving you a Terminator with a special weapon x5-10, and since most Combi weapons got a discount, that's what I'd guess it's about.

Vanilla loyalists get storm Bolter/powerfist (sword on Sargent...for reasons), lightning claws or thunderhammer stormshield, with a codex compliant 1 heavy weapon per 5 guys (like we have...)

Terminator base ranged weaponry shouldn't be just storm/twinlinked bolters, it should maybe be something like heavy bolters. IDK.

Them chosen though...kinda thinking about some for my world eaters.

I think warp talons (unjustly) have only 1 attack because gw over values close combat and they are our flying terminators (they get the 5++ save of a Terminator with lightning claws instead of the 2+ armor save like nipple Bois) the pair of lightning claws give +1 attack (they should be 2 base).

 

 

As mentioned, Space Woof Termies get combi-weapons. And access to Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers. And Cataphractii (not counting DG).

I honestly think the Termie price is a typo, or it might be the term I'm gonna coin now: Gwilya. I mentioned it earlier, but Zilya was the Ottomans' tax on non-Muslims. Gwilya is GW's tax on non-Emperor worshippers, often levied more directly at the spikey boyz.

 

I've run 8x Chosen, with IoE, 7x power swords, 4x plasma gun, 1x combi-plasma, and 1x power fist. If played very conservatively, it isn't bad. I play Alpha Legion, hide them as well as I can, preferably in cover, keep them out of rapid fire range, and cast Delightful Agonies. At the 2+ saves with 5+ FnP, and now only a point more than a CSM, I'm pretty pleased! A smart warp time, paired with a death hex and VotLW if needed, can do some work on heavy infantry and light vehicles. 

 

 

A question for me is - with the Cultist price hike, is the Cultist 40 man blobs still viable (I use Iron Warriors with the cold and bitter warlord trait) or has it just become too expensive? Is it better to load up on small 10 man units and rely on armour that has been buffed via points drops? I mean a dakka defiler (Havoc/Reaper autocannon) is now 136 points, which isn't bad for a tanky model. is that worth it?

 

My "competitive" army has now just gone up 86 points as a result of the changes, so I'm looking to make changes.

 

Absolutely - Cultists are still absolutely solid when viewed beside our other units! A Cultist bomb, in rapid fire range, puts 14 wounds on a Castellan. For comparison, a Predator Annihilator (4x lascannon) is a bit cheaper, but does a measly 5 wounds on average with the Chaos Lord re-roll, Prescience, and Killshot. Without Killshot (which is more realistic), you're at 3 dmg on average.

 

I think the main issue with Daemon Engines and Vehicles is their lack of Legion Traits (which I was hoping for would change in this CA). Using the Predator example, they're just nowhere near as tanky as e.g. an Alaitoc Wave Serpent and their damage output is underwhelming. While the WS is a bit more expensive and the Predator Annihilator is a bit cheaper post-CA, meaning they're almost the same price, the Predator still sucks balls compared to it. I run a Helbrute (which does get Legion traits) with a Reaper autocannon and a missile launcher (in casual games), and it always underperforms.


Edited by ChazSexington, 10 December 2018 - 10:16 AM.

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#71
Kythnos

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Do we expect an FAQ for CA in about two weeks after release as with the codices? If they get enough feedback about the Termi costs that might get changed as a printing error.

I just emailed, it's got to be a mistake, I'm emailing separately about cultists and chaos space marines. I'd suggest everyone do similar as well. The email address is:

40KFAQ@gwplc.com

 

 

I also just emailed them. Fingers crossed it will get corrected :)



#72
Cheex

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I can kind of understand Chaos Termies being more expensive, by virtue of having access to VotLW and/or Endless Cacophony, but being more than 20% more expensive? That's a bit much...


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#73
ChazSexington

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I've taken the time to write up an e-mail to GW, anyone have anything I might've missed? Always happy to lend my voice to the choir of Chaos!
 

 

 

Hello,

I saw some discrepancies in Chapter Approved - are Chaos Terminators meant to be 5pt more expensive than Loyalist Terminators? Or is this a typo?

 

I noticed in your Warhammer Community post that you increased the cost of Cultists partially due to them being so prevalent - is it then a mistake that you didn't increase the cost of the most common unit in the game, the Imperial Guardsman? I do not intend any snark, I am genuinely curious about the design team's train of thought or if there has been a mistake.

 

On the topic of Cultists, as an ardent CSM player and tournament organiser, I found your reasoning on the Cultist point increase rather lacking. Never mind the Guardsman cost and the diversity issue, the reason CSM players take Cultists is due to their point efficiency and how badly  Chaos Space Marines (the unit) is overcosted for what little it does. Cultists are still better, point for point, for CP generation, durability, and killing power, both at range and in close combat. If the player wants something more specialised, Chosen cost a single point more for extra attacks, leadership, and weapon options, so if I want something with much higher killing power, I can take them instead. This is the same for all Loyalist players as well, who opt for Scouts instead of Intercessors or Tacticals.

 

As you surely know, the lynchpin of the Cultist bomb is access to Veterans of the Long War. Without that, their damage output sinks dramatically. It would be a much more lore-friendly solution to remove access to this. A full Cultist bomb (Chaos Lord re-rolls, Prescience, VotLW, and Endless Cacophony) puts 14 wounds, on average against a Castellan with a 3+ invulnerable save. A Predator Annihilator puts 5 wounds on it with Prescience, a Chaos Lord re-roll, and Killshot, or 3 damage without Killshot, which is much more likely outside of going first. In price, the Predator was pre-CA 30pt more expensive, but is 20pt cheaper post-CA, so they're still comparable in price. As predictability is key in a game of chance, this makes Cultists even more reliable. Is this intentional?

 

While the Predator Annihilator's point cost went down a smidgen and the Wave Serpent went up a touch, the two units are simply not comparable in utility, in part due to Craftworld Traits affecting Vehicles as opposed to Legion Traits. An Alaitoc Wave Serpent vs. a Predator Annihilator is an extremely one-sided firefight. An Alaitoc Wave Serpent with Twin Brightlances and Spirit Stones vs. the Predator Annihilator with 4 lascannons works out as over 3dmg on average deal by the Wave Serpent, while the Predator averages 2 dmg, not counting the Shuriken catapult. Additionally, the Wave Serpent has 3 more wounds, Transport capacity, higher Movement, and its numbers are only restricted as per Dedicated Transports as opposed to the Rule of X. Points-wise, the Predator sits at 180pt, while this particular Wave Serpent sits at 171pt. This does not seem right.

 

Kind regards,

 

 

Chaz

 

 


Edited by ChazSexington, 10 December 2018 - 11:43 AM.

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#74
sfPanzer

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The thing is, if the Stratagems are this good then GW should balance those instead of the units that would theoretically benefit from them. They have separate CP costs for a reason. If you keep using those Stratagems on other units or are out of CP you are left with an overpriced unit.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#75
ChazSexington

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The thing is, if the Stratagems are this good then GW should balance those instead of the units that would theoretically benefit from them. They have separate CP costs for a reason. If you keep using those Stratagems on other units or are out of CP you are left with an overpriced unit.

 

100% agree. VotLW, Endless Cacophony etc should be tied to a certain power level, like so many other later Stratagems are.


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