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#76
Wayniac

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As I've stated a few times before, Cultists should not get <Heretic Astartes>.  That right there will curb most of their power.  I would almost say they shouldn't get Marks either, despite this being something in the fluff, only because of the interaction with Stratagems.  Overall though, the problem is the vast number of Stratagems which as a result encourage CP farming as cheaply as possible to open it up; this is why you see the "Loyal 32" in nearly every Imperium soup army.  If Stratagems and CP were rare things that you could use maybe once per game, maybe two at most, it wouldn't be a problem.  But as it stands you are rewarded for gaming the system to have cheap CP batteries to fuel the things that really want to use them.

 

I think GW made a big mistake putting so many rules behind stratagems.  It's what led to the issue we now face.


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- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#77
ChazSexington

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I think they could maybe take something from AoS in that aspect - it works much better there. HQs generate CPs during the game (so you don't further emphasise the first turn) and the Stratagems are keyed to the HQs.


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#78
Bulwyf

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Cultists should not have the astartes keyword. They are not Astartes. They should be weak chaff that costs almost nothing but is weak.


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#79
Cheex

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The thing is, if the Stratagems are this good then GW should balance those instead of the units that would theoretically benefit from them. They have separate CP costs for a reason. If you keep using those Stratagems on other units or are out of CP you are left with an overpriced unit.

 

Can't argue with this logic. I wholly agree.



#80
sfPanzer

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Cultists should not have the astartes keyword. They are not Astartes. They should be weak chaff that costs almost nothing but is weak.


Agreed. Same way as Kroot and Vespid don't have the Sept Keyword.


Edited by sfPanzer, 10 December 2018 - 10:06 PM.

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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#81
Raven1

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I guess the issue across the board are, what are troop space marines really worth? What's their purpose?

I think thats the biggest issue (Chaos) Space Marines have. Each book has an option that is either better for the points (scouts/cultists) or just a flat out better choice (Primaris/cult troops). Chapter Approved only exacerbated the problem since chosen/veterans are so cheap and terminators especially chaos terminators are just not good.

Edited by Raven1, 11 December 2018 - 04:33 AM.

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#82
ChazSexington

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Cultists should not have the astartes keyword. They are not Astartes. They should be weak chaff that costs almost nothing but is weak.


Agreed. Same way as Kroot and Vespid don't have the Sept Keyword.

 

 

 

Cultists should not have the astartes keyword. They are not Astartes. They should be weak chaff that costs almost nothing but is weak.

 

As Heretic Astartes is the Codex Keyword, we'd end up not being able to make a Battleforged Army with Cultists. Just specifying in VotLW that you can't use it on Cultists is good enough tbh. It does what you want in practice smile.png

Edit: Durr, <Legion> is also a Faction Keyword, my bad.


Edited by ChazSexington, 11 December 2018 - 08:54 AM.

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#83
sfPanzer

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Cultists should not have the astartes keyword. They are not Astartes. They should be weak chaff that costs almost nothing but is weak.


Agreed. Same way as Kroot and Vespid don't have the Sept Keyword.

 

 

 

Cultists should not have the astartes keyword. They are not Astartes. They should be weak chaff that costs almost nothing but is weak.

 

As Heretic Astartes is the Codex Keyword, we'd end up not being able to make a Battleforged Army with Cultists. Just specifying in VotLW that you can't use it on Cultists is good enough tbh. It does what you want in practice smile.png

 

 

Yeah that's the problem and solution I'd see as well. Or take away the Legion keyword from Cultists, give them a mention that you can take them without losing Legion benefits like Kroot and Vespid and change VotLW to use <LEGION> instead of HERETIC ASTARTES. That would probably be the better but also more convoluted approach. Maybe something for when there's a new Codex, tho not very likely to happen.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#84
ChazSexington

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Cultists should not have the astartes keyword. They are not Astartes. They should be weak chaff that costs almost nothing but is weak.


Agreed. Same way as Kroot and Vespid don't have the Sept Keyword.

 

 

 

Cultists should not have the astartes keyword. They are not Astartes. They should be weak chaff that costs almost nothing but is weak.

 

As Heretic Astartes is the Codex Keyword, we'd end up not being able to make a Battleforged Army with Cultists. Just specifying in VotLW that you can't use it on Cultists is good enough tbh. It does what you want in practice smile.png

 

 

Yeah that's the problem and solution I'd see as well. Or take away the Legion keyword from Cultists, give them a mention that you can take them without losing Legion benefits like Kroot and Vespid and change VotLW to use <LEGION> instead of HERETIC ASTARTES. That would probably be the better but also more convoluted approach. Maybe something for when there's a new Codex, tho not very likely to happen.

 

 

Oh, I just realised Abaddon's ability affects Heretic Astartes. It would nerf them further.


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#85
Wayniac

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I'm not so sure that would be a bad thing.  Abaddon only gets taken to make them Fearless, right?


- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#86
ChazSexington

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I'm not so sure that would be a bad thing.  Abaddon only gets taken to make them Fearless, right?

 

Iron Warrior Warlord Trait does it too, which is a Legion trigger.


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#87
sfPanzer

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As said it would be a convoluted change. It would require to review the whole Codex and all the keyword interactions to make sure there aren't any unwanted sideeffects. One more reason why it won't happen. ^^


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#88
McGibs

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A couple rough gems popping out of the forgeworld point adjustments as well as the obvious dreadnought flavours. I think these are worth another look too: 

Hellwright on Abayant: 136pts (down more than 40). Now we can actually run a proper Dark Mechanicus HQ that doesn't cost as much as a daemonprince. His aura of +1A and +1Ld to Helforged units might be a bit scatterbrained seeing as he can't repair them, but he CAN repair any other chaos vehicle, and even renegade knights! More importantly, he can actually keep up with them at M8", unlike the bargain warpsmith (who's also good). His guns also pack some serious punch at close range, making him one of the few shooty HQs

Inferno Predator (that is, Inferno cannon, 2x heavy flamers, and combiflamer): 161pts (down almost 40) for what is essentially a jacked up chaos hellhound. 5D6 autohits is nothing to scoff at, especially when 2D6 of them are 2 damage. Seems right nasty for burning... pretty much anything. It might be short range, but M12" helps out a lot with that. Oh. It also has powerswords for treads. 

Achilles Landraider: 355ish pts (down more than 50pts!) for what is frankly, a ridiculous tank. 19wounds, T8, 2+ save, its also got an insane 4++. Add to that 4 multimelta shots and 3D3 mortal wound soulburn mortar that ignores LoS, some transport capacity, and power-treads, and I think this thing is better than a Leviathan. Actually, this is the thing I'd take to eat Leviathans. It's only downside is lack of machinespirit (why FW... whyyyyy), but that can be mitigated a bit with stratagems, prescience, and nearby lords/princes. Once it's moved for a turn or two, it shouldnt have to move anymore.


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#89
RolandTHTG

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A couple rough gems popping out of the forgeworld point adjustments as well as the obvious dreadnought flavours. I think these are worth another look too: 

Hellwright on Abayant: 136pts (down more than 40). Now we can actually run a proper Dark Mechanicus HQ that doesn't cost as much as a daemonprince. His aura of +1A and +1Ld to Helforged units might be a bit scatterbrained seeing as he can't repair them, but he CAN repair any other chaos vehicle, and even renegade knights! More importantly, he can actually keep up with them at M8", unlike the bargain warpsmith (who's also good). His guns also pack some serious punch at close range, making him one of the few shooty HQs. 

Inferno Predator (that is, Inferno cannon, 2x heavy flamers, and combiflamer): 161pts (down almost 40) for what is essentially a jacked up chaos hellhound. 5D6 autohits is nothing to scoff at, especially when 2D6 of them are 2 damage. Seems right nasty for burning... pretty much anything. It might be short range, but M12" helps out a lot with that. Oh. It also has powerswords for treads. 

Achilles Landraider: 355ish pts (down more than 50pts!) for what is frankly, a ridiculous tank. 19wounds, T8, 2+ save, its also got an insane 4++. Add to that 4 multimelta shots and 3D3 mortal wound soulburn mortar that ignores LoS, some transport capacity, and power-treads, and I think this thing is better than a Leviathan. Actually, this is the thing I'd take to eat Leviathans. It's only downside is lack of machinespirit (why FW... whyyyyy), but that can be mitigated a bit with stratagems, prescience, and nearby lords/princes. Once it's moved for a turn or two, it shouldnt have to move anymore.

 

I'll definitely have to try the Inferno Predator out. That 2 damage is very tempting. 

 

If the achilles is actually at 355, it's lost almost 100 from last year, which would be amazing for my list. The 4++is a gods-send, and makes it actually survivable the way a landraider should be. I do have to point out that the soulburn Mortar is only 2d3 shots, so it usually ends up being effectively a smite. 


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#90
McGibs

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Sorry, my bad. 2D3 at 48" range ignoring LOS is still a decent slow-burn on high durability targets though. The 4++ and 19W is really the sweetspot though. Might actually feel like a proper heavy tank.


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#91
Marshlands

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Abaddons primary role shouldn't be buffing cultists. He should have a buff best matched to termies, chosen, etc. Like a FnP or damage reduction aura for termies.

Taking keywords from cultists would put them in a similar place to kroot etc but would only solve the issue of cultists. We'll then just use to the next most efficient use of stratagems or powers (e.g. 20 noise marines or whatever).

Most stratagems (buff/debuff ones) should be power level linked and going a bit further I'd say rather than limiting each one to once per phase id limit it by power level per phase... e.g. you could use vets once on a big or twice on two small units
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#92
Sonoftherubric21

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60 marines + abbadon is 890 + gear options. 

Then take another 60 cultists. Fearless waves of power armor and bodies. good luck killin all of that!  No morale chicanery for you. 



#93
Tokugawa

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8th is still an anti-powerarmour edition. Cultists nerf is just placebo to astartes units lover.
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#94
El_Dicko

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I’m suddenly motivated to finish converting my Achilles, which I started building at the end of 7th as center piece for a Steel bretheren army. Hopefully iron warriors get some love in the next Vigilus book!

#95
ChazSexington

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Abaddons primary role shouldn't be buffing cultists. He should have a buff best matched to termies, chosen, etc. Like a FnP or damage reduction aura for termies.

Taking keywords from cultists would put them in a similar place to kroot etc but would only solve the issue of cultists. We'll then just use to the next most efficient use of stratagems or powers (e.g. 20 noise marines or whatever).

Most stratagems (buff/debuff ones) should be power level linked and going a bit further I'd say rather than limiting each one to once per phase id limit it by power level per phase... e.g. you could use vets once on a big or twice on two small units

 

100% agree that shouldn't be his role; however, he needs it to allow for large squads of CSMs. The knock-on effect is that this makes him ideal for the even more Battleshock-prone and point efficient Cultists. 

 

60 marines + abbadon is 890 + gear options. 

Then take another 60 cultists. Fearless waves of power armor and bodies. good luck killin all of that!  No morale chicanery for you. 

 

I think 60 CSMs and Abaddon won some tournament in the US North East, but it's not actually competitive. Cultist bombs are still just so much more point effective against literally everything. 


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#96
Sonoftherubric21

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60 marines + abbadon is 890 + gear options. 

Then take another 60 cultists. Fearless waves of power armor and bodies. good luck killin all of that!  No morale chicanery for you. 

 

I think 60 CSMs and Abaddon won some tournament in the US North East, but it's not actually competitive. Cultist bombs are still just so much more point effective against literally everything. 

 

 

It was (I believe) 80 + Abbadon in 2k though I do not remember the rest of the list. Though my experience with using base chaos marines has been relatively positive I understand the communities issues with them.


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#97
Ishagu

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A couple rough gems popping out of the forgeworld point adjustments as well as the obvious dreadnought flavours. I think these are worth another look too:

Hellwright on Abayant: 136pts (down more than 40). Now we can actually run a proper Dark Mechanicus HQ that doesn't cost as much as a daemonprince. His aura of +1A and +1Ld to Helforged units might be a bit scatterbrained seeing as he can't repair them, but he CAN repair any other chaos vehicle, and even renegade knights! More importantly, he can actually keep up with them at M8", unlike the bargain warpsmith (who's also good). His guns also pack some serious punch at close range, making him one of the few shooty HQs.

Inferno Predator (that is, Inferno cannon, 2x heavy flamers, and combiflamer): 161pts (down almost 40) for what is essentially a jacked up chaos hellhound. 5D6 autohits is nothing to scoff at, especially when 2D6 of them are 2 damage. Seems right nasty for burning... pretty much anything. It might be short range, but M12" helps out a lot with that. Oh. It also has powerswords for treads.

Achilles Landraider: 355ish pts (down more than 50pts!) for what is frankly, a ridiculous tank. 19wounds, T8, 2+ save, its also got an insane 4++. Add to that 4 multimelta shots and 3D3 mortal wound soulburn mortar that ignores LoS, some transport capacity, and power-treads, and I think this thing is better than a Leviathan. Actually, this is the thing I'd take to eat Leviathans. It's only downside is lack of machinespirit (why FW... whyyyyy), but that can be mitigated a bit with stratagems, prescience, and nearby lords/princes. Once it's moved for a turn or two, it shouldnt have to move anymore.


Wow some great stuff here!

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#98
Juggernut

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Warpsmith on juggernaut conversion for one of those is a mighty enticing prospect with that points drop. Less convinced about the land raider, though.

Edited by Juggernut, 12 December 2018 - 10:43 AM.

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#99
El_Dicko

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Warpsmith on juggernaut conversion for one of those is a mighty enticing prospect with that points drop. Less convinced about the land raider, though.


Oh damn it now you’ve got this idea in my head for a six(or holy 8) legged juggernaut which almost an excuse to buy that AOS Khorne Start Collecting box!
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#100
Mallios

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Sleipnir of Khorne?




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