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Discussion post points CA leak


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#101
Sonoftherubric21

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Base land raiders being less than 300 looks fairly useful on the outset.  

 

Anyone think about using those? 



#102
McGibs

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I don't know if they're worth it yet. They're still easily locked in combat, and their weapons don't mix well with wither role as an assault transport. There's better ways to get 4 lascannons on the table. T8 with 2+ save also isnt that durable without an invul save, and any army capable of chewing through a knight wont have any trouble with a raider. It's why I think the Achillies is so appealing, as it seems like it can actually take some hits with a 4++ (and you can also throw on delightful agonies on it for another 5+++)

 

Personally, I think if you want a capable non-rhino transport, the Termite Drill is a much better alternative.


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#103
Excessus

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Sleipnir of Khorne?

 

So an old Space Wolf Iron Priest that has turned over to the correct side? :)


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#104
sfPanzer

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Base land raiders being less than 300 looks fairly useful on the outset.  

 

Anyone think about using those? 

 

Land raider still have the same problem as before. As transports they want to get close to the enemy asap to deliver their load, however they also are an expensive gunboat that pays a lot for its heavy weaponry and tough armour which both get completely invalidated once it gets charged by anything. Even if it's just a Rhino or a Gaunt. And since it wants to get close to the enemy the likelyhood it'll get charged by something is incredibly high.

The loyalists can circumvent that now with the Repulsor thanks to the FLY keyword but that doesn't really help old Marines and chaos Marines.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#105
Ishagu

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Why not use them to transport a shooting unit? You don't need to get too close then.

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#106
sfPanzer

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What kind of shooty unit do you want to transport that doesn't actually want to get close as well and that wouldn't be better put in a Rhino?

We have long ranged units that don't need transports, short ranged units that want to get close as well and mid-ranged unit that fall somewhere between of not needing a transport because they can get close with their own movement range and wanting to get close which would bring us back to the Landraider getting too close to units that can charge him.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#107
Ishagu

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Plasma chosen? Lol

They can move 9" from the raider to get in rapid fire whilst the tank continues to shoot at range.

Edited by Ishagu, 12 December 2018 - 08:30 PM.

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#108
sfPanzer

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Well they want to get within 12" which is pretty close if you don't want to get charged lol


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#109
Bulwyf

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So anyone besides myself that looks at the create your own character rules and want to update Lucius profile into something that actual resembles how great he is in the fluff?


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#110
Excessus

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Well they want to get within 12" which is pretty close if you don't want to get charged lol

 

They can handle themselves in a fight pretty well though with those three attacks each.


"Deception IS the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see. And fear what he doesn't know."

Alpha Legion Cell #379, Thousand Sons and other friends - The corruption of cell #379
The Serpent's Lair - Alpha Legion Forum
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#111
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Base land raiders being less than 300 looks fairly useful on the outset.  

 

Anyone think about using those? 

 

Land raider still have the same problem as before. As transports they want to get close to the enemy asap to deliver their load, however they also are an expensive gunboat that pays a lot for its heavy weaponry and tough armour which both get completely invalidated once it gets charged by anything. Even if it's just a Rhino or a Gaunt. And since it wants to get close to the enemy the likelyhood it'll get charged by something is incredibly high.

The loyalists can circumvent that now with the Repulsor thanks to the FLY keyword but that doesn't really help old Marines and chaos Marines.

 

Yeah. Hellforged Land Raiders are better in that regard because they can actually fight and help clear tarpits.



#112
sfPanzer

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Well they want to get within 12" which is pretty close if you don't want to get charged lol

 

They can handle themselves in a fight pretty well though with those three attacks each.

 

 

We're talking about the Land raider tho. :P


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpg


#113
ChazSexington

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Base land raiders being less than 300 looks fairly useful on the outset.  

 

Anyone think about using those? 

 

 

Plasma chosen? Lol

They can move 9" from the raider to get in rapid fire whilst the tank continues to shoot at range.

 

I was about to suggest this - Chosen have collapsed in cost, and my plasma and power sword Chosen might go in a Land Raider with a Chaos Lord and Exalted Champion in the near future! LRs are effectively down 50pt, 8 Chosen are almost that. While not competitive, it might be fun!


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#114
Ishagu

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It's all about target saturation. Turn 1 and 2 your opponent could destroy a Raider but might ignore it if you present him/her with more pressing threats. Turn 3 onwards when his forces are diminished it becomes a lot harder to deal with.

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#115
Bulwyf

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I will be using plasma and power sword Chosen in my LR next time I play just to see what they can do with the point decrease. It works as 40k versions of Palatine Blades in my EC list.


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#116
sfPanzer

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It's all about target saturation. Turn 1 and 2 your opponent could destroy a Raider but might ignore it if you present him/her with more pressing threats. Turn 3 onwards when his forces are diminished it becomes a lot harder to deal with.

 

I wasn't even talking about the Landraider getting destroyed lol


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpg


#117
ChazSexington

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I think potentially even screening the Land Raider with something - be it combi-flamer bikes, Cultists, or Rhinos - to avoid T1 or T2 charges. The Chosen are going to be in Rapid Fire range T2, and with a cheeky Prescience, Endless Cacophony, VotLW, and Chaos Lord, they can pump out 20 plasma shots at 2+, re-rolling 1s. Then charge something with power swords, pop VotLW again and have an Exalted Champion close by, and watch them hit on 2+, re-rolling 1s with power swords at +1 to wound, re-rolling all failed to wound rolls. If fighting something with an invulnerable save, pop a Death Hex. Watch Custodes die like flies. A well-placed Warptime will even allow you to potentially hug something to avoid being shot. If you're worried about being killed in CC, there's always Delightful Agonies.

I mean, sure, this isn't exactly competitive - requiring 4 CPs, 2 Characters, and 4 Psychic Powers - but it can potentially put a serious dent in someone's army if they're not careful. 

 

Some quick CC wound maths:

T4: 14.7

T4 (With exploding 5s): 19.6

T5-7: 12.4
T5-7 (With exploding 5s): 16.5
T8+: 9.2
T8+ (With exploding 5s): 12.2

 

Some quick ranged wound maths with 20 plasma shots (Endless Cacophony and VotLW), overcharged for 2 dmg.

T7 and less: 32.4

T8 and less: 25.9

 

The Chosen will take a Castellan with ease. 

The Land Raider is still overpriced as a transport, but T8 W16 can reliable get this thing into the opponent's line T2, as opposed to the Rhino. Another threat will be required, but that's the strength of Stratagems - we can run this along a Cultist bomb or two, and the opponent will need to make some serious choices. 

 

A sidenote, the Prepared Positions Stratagem is an understated boon to the CSMs, and especially our Vehicles. Suddenly our LR is sitting at 1+ and we can afford to go second, which is ideal in ITC and the new CA missions. I also think our army is better suited for a counterattack. We function, in general, best at 12" range, which is much more likely if we go second. 


Edited by ChazSexington, 13 December 2018 - 08:33 AM.

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#118
sfPanzer

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Yeah but that's a lot of efford to make something work and it's not like such a thing wasn't doable before. The Land raider became a bit cheaper but it's still the same unit with the same problems.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpg


#119
ChazSexington

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Yeah but that's a lot of efford to make something work and it's not like such a thing wasn't doable before. The Land raider became a bit cheaper but it's still the same unit with the same problems.

 

It requires 1 more CP than the Cultist bomb? Psychic powers to max it out are the same. It was doable before, but post-CA, the points have changed by 202 in the direction of the Chosen. The Land Raider isn't fire support and we shouldn't treat it as such - it's quite clearly intended as a Transport. The Lascannons and HBs are okay, but it has none of the firepower, point for point, of anything with true firepower. 

I also explicitly stated I don't think it's competitive msn-wink.gif

Pre-CA, 3x40 Cultists, Abaddon, and a Sorcerer conked out at 818, while 8 Chosen (7x power sword, 1x powerfist, 5x plasmagun, 1x combi-plasma), a Chaos Lord, an Exalted Champion, Sorcerer, and Land Raider came out at 856. 

 

Post-CA, it's 938 and 766. That's a 202pt swing towards the LR and Chosen, with the Cultists costing 172pt more now.  

I'll say it again, I don't think it's competitive choice and I still think the Cultists are more bang for your buck, but it is much more viable for casual play. If the LR got another price drop, and some rule that allowed it to move through enemy models (while attacking in CC to simulate crushing its enemies under its tracks) as it Falls Back and then fire, we'd possibly be talking a competitive spot.


Edited by ChazSexington, 13 December 2018 - 10:45 AM.

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#120
sfPanzer

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If you don't treat the Land raider as fire support then just go with a Rhino, seriously. And if you want pure Plasma output then I'd like to point you towards the good old Terminator bomb with combi-plasma everyone used before discovering Obliterators. Way easier to apply than juggling with a Land raider and Cultists to screen lol

 

I can just repeat myself. Literally nothing changed about what makes the Land raider a bad unit. CA only reduced the points but it being expensive was only half of its problem. By all means go and use Land raider. I'd be thrilled if it turns out to be suddenly a good pick. It won't tho.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#121
Ishagu

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If you can keep it from getting charged it's a pretty hardy fire support. T8 and a 2+ is vastly different to T7 with a 3+

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#122
Iron_Within

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Atm I'm considering flamer chosen, the sheer number of attacks jumping out of a transport is impressive if random. Combined with khorne berserkers they would make decent screen sweepers before the Berzerker charge.
Alternatively, chosen with flamers and chain sword plus VOTLW and endless cacophony would be nasty against hordes; average of 18 hits (36 with EC) with 12 (24 with EC) wounds on t4 targets and 15 (30 with EC) on T3, and then they charge with 3 attacks (total 16 in a 5 man squad) giving about 5 to 6 wounds on orks.
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#123
ChazSexington

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If you don't treat the Land raider as fire support then just go with a Rhino, seriously. And if you want pure Plasma output then I'd like to point you towards the good old Terminator bomb with combi-plasma everyone used before discovering Obliterators. Way easier to apply than juggling with a Land raider and Cultists to screen lol

 

I can just repeat myself. Literally nothing changed about what makes the Land raider a bad unit. CA only reduced the points but it being expensive was only half of its problem. By all means go and use Land raider. I'd be thrilled if it turns out to be suddenly a good pick. It won't tho.

 

 

If you can keep it from getting charged it's a pretty hardy fire support. T8 and a 2+ is vastly different to T7 with a 3+

 

Yep. T8, 2+ (1+ if you go second) W16 is MUCH more durable than T7, 3+, W10. I don't think it's that hardy, mind, but the amount of firepower it can suck up, relative to a Rhino can be good for other units. As has been mentioned, you need multiple threats to your opponent T1/T2 anyway. If you have 4 Khorne Berzerker units hidden in 2 Rhinos, they have some serious decisions to make.


Edited by ChazSexington, 13 December 2018 - 11:15 AM.

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#124
sfPanzer

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You don't have to tell me that. It's usually me who tells people they need to provide more target saturation lol


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#125
Iron_Within

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If the land raiders could shoot even if in combat like a titanic unit that would massively mitigate it's failings.
I guess one way you could use it is use the 3" disembark and warp time to propel a unit forward them use it as a pill box, though I think that still is poor use of 300+ points
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“From Iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron. This is the Unbreakable Litany. And may it forever be so."

The 144th Grand Company "The Reforged" fight in the http://alephsector.blogspot.co.uk/





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