Discussion post points CA leak

[adreal]

If your going for a chosen 'deathstar' in a land raider what else can you run to give target saturation, given that you'll need atleast 150 points sitting in cultists so you'll have the cp to burn.

 

Although yes, you did state that it wasnt a competitive choice.

 

 

Anyways I enjoy that chosen seem to be usable now, I'm looking at 5 with 4 plasma and 5 chainaxes supported by a blade of hydra lord tucked into a spartan. I'll have 70 odd cultists to throw around and 2 havoc squads, a butcher levi and scorpius to take the heat off, such a shame that basic csm didnt get a much needed price drop (seriously, they should be like 9 points, and chosen 10) but hey

[ChazSexington]

If your going for a chosen 'deathstar' in a land raider what else can you run to give target saturation, given that you'll need atleast 150 points sitting in cultists so you'll have the cp to burn.

Although yes, you did state that it wasnt a competitive choice.

Anyways I enjoy that chosen seem to be usable now, I'm looking at 5 with 4 plasma and 5 chainaxes supported by a blade of hydra lord tucked into a spartan. I'll have 70 odd cultists to throw around and 2 havoc squads, a butcher levi and scorpius to take the heat off, such a shame that basic csm didnt get a much needed price drop (seriously, they should be like 9 points, and chosen 10) but hey

Well, relative to the 3x40 Cultists choice, I've got 170pt to spend on something else post-CA. So... add a 3 squads of Cultists?

[adreal]

Any changes in hellforged units or war gear??

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

A couple rough gems popping out of the forgeworld point adjustments as well as the obvious dreadnought flavours. I think these are worth another look too: 

 

Hellwright on Abayant: 136pts (down more than 40). Now we can actually run a proper Dark Mechanicus HQ that doesn't cost as much as a daemonprince. His aura of +1A and +1Ld to Helforged units might be a bit scatterbrained seeing as he can't repair them, but he CAN repair any other chaos vehicle, and even renegade knights! More importantly, he can actually keep up with them at M8", unlike the bargain warpsmith (who's also good). His guns also pack some serious punch at close range, making him one of the few shooty HQs. 

 

Inferno Predator (that is, Inferno cannon, 2x heavy flamers, and combiflamer): 161pts (down almost 40) for what is essentially a jacked up chaos hellhound. 5D6 autohits is nothing to scoff at, especially when 2D6 of them are 2 damage. Seems right nasty for burning... pretty much anything. It might be short range, but M12" helps out a lot with that. Oh. It also has powerswords for treads. 

 

Achilles Landraider: 355ish pts (down more than 50pts!) for what is frankly, a ridiculous tank. 19wounds, T8, 2+ save, its also got an insane 4++. Add to that 4 multimelta shots and 3D3 mortal wound soulburn mortar that ignores LoS, some transport capacity, and power-treads, and I think this thing is better than a Leviathan. Actually, this is the thing I'd take to eat Leviathans. It's only downside is lack of machinespirit (why FW... whyyyyy), but that can be mitigated a bit with stratagems, prescience, and nearby lords/princes. Once it's moved for a turn or two, it shouldnt have to move anymore.

 

I'll definitely have to try the Inferno Predator out. That 2 damage is very tempting. 

 

If the achilles is actually at 355, it's lost almost 100 from last year, which would be amazing for my list. The 4++is a gods-send, and makes it actually survivable the way a landraider should be. I do have to point out that the soulburn Mortar is only 2d3 shots, so it usually ends up being effectively a smite. 

 

Join the Thousand Sons! Even our Land Raiders have Smite!!

 

(seriously, they were one of the first Legions to be gifted the Achilles by the Imperial Fists)

 

As for shooting, McGibs has the right of it. Keep the pedal to the metal and use strats/powers. Particularly Prescience, Warp Time, and Miasma, Weaver of Fates, or Delightful Agonies. Diabolic Strength is hilarious too.....since all that aggressive movement simply MUST end in a plunge into enemy ranks to recoup wounds. :)

[Sception]

Doesnt look like much in the way of meaningful change to me. Some point reductions, largely negated by the cultist increase. CSMs still bad and sad in the CSM army. Power armor in general still a bad idea this edition. I'm not quitting the game or dumping my army or anything. CSMs as an army have certainly seen worse days. But I'm not really seeing a reason to come out of hibernation either.

 

The laughably tonedeaf bit about raising the price of cultists due to overuse while leaving CSMs untouched really is peak GW.

[Khornestar]

Any changes in hellforged units or war gear??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*edit*

 

Hilarious to note is that the Chaos Space Marines crew for the chaos rapier cost 10 points each! 

[Tokugawa]

Hell! They nerfed Necrosius!

[Khornestar]

Huh. So they did. Must have been because you see him all the time on the tabletop in every Death Guard list. Oh wait... :P

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I may have to get an achilles at some point for my Death Guard and I can practically hear the squeeing from my World Eaters over the Inferno Predator. I'm gonna need to get a couple kill, maim, burn tanks at some point!

[Trevak Dal]

Man I wish you could just completely customize chosen/veterans. Like if you want all 10 to have combi-flamers and power swords (or chainswords) you could do it. Yeah you can take two units of 5 but you can only take 3 total.

[Excessus]

Man I wish you could just completely customize chosen/veterans. Like if you want all 10 to have combi-flamers and power swords (or chainswords) you could do it. Yeah you can take two units of 5 but you can only take 3 total.

 

Huh? One squad can take six combi-weps, can't they? And they can all take melee weapons since the FAQ, no?

[ChazSexington]

Man I wish you could just completely customize chosen/veterans. Like if you want all 10 to have combi-flamers and power swords (or chainswords) you could do it. Yeah you can take two units of 5 but you can only take 3 total.

 

 

 

Man I wish you could just completely customize chosen/veterans. Like if you want all 10 to have combi-flamers and power swords (or chainswords) you could do it. Yeah you can take two units of 5 but you can only take 3 total.

 

Huh? One squad can take six combi-weps, can't they? And they can all take melee weapons since the FAQ, no?

 

 

Yep.

 

I find the main issue is delivery. The Rhino is too easy to blow up, the LR is still too expensive realistically, the Dreadclaw means a 9" charge, and the Alpha Legion Stratagem is reliant on going first, as deploying outside your deployment zone means you don't get the cover save from Prepared Positions and not likely to get the -1 to hit. 

[Trevak Dal]

You would think drop pods/the dreadclaw for being so expensive would let you get closer than 9" with the disembark...

[RolandTHTG]

Sadly, that sheet shows that the Achilles comes out at an even 400 points, still a saving of 53 pts over previous, but not quite the steal 355 would have been. 

When battlescribe gets updated I'll have to check out what the new points totals are, and see what else I can fit into my tourney list. 

 

(That rapier crew points is a repeat of last year, for added hilarity. )

[Stofficus]

Nice to see they felt the Fellblade was still worth 917 points. 

 

Who doesn't like paying nearly twice as much for a slightly improved Baneblade?

[Ghorgul]

Wow, Hellforged Contemptor got quite significant point reductions!

[McGibs]

Sadly, that sheet shows that the Achilles comes out at an even 400 points, still a saving of 53 pts over previous, but not quite the steal 355 would have been. 

When battlescribe gets updated I'll have to check out what the new points totals are, and see what else I can fit into my tourney list. 

 

(That rapier crew points is a repeat of last year, for added hilarity. )

 

 

 

Ahhh, my bad! I didn't see the sneaky bombard pointchange to 90. Well, 400 is still not terrible. It's almost got a titanic statline, and because it's still a CSM unit, you can cast spells and strats on it. Delightful Agonies on that thing would be a monster to shift.

[WarriorFish]

Wow, Hellforged Contemptor got quite significant point reductions!

Mine has gone from 175pts to 145! Very nice indeed

[Iron_Within]

I tried using battle scribe this morning, a lot of the values are still incorrect. Just a heads up

[WarriorFish]

Updates are rolling across the lists I think, Daemons already have the updates out but still waiting on Chaos Marines and Sons unless they've been released since I played with some lists earlier today.

[Cheex]

Give it time. Remember that Battlescribe is not official and is run by volunteers.

[ChazSexington]

Since I'm a hugely excited nerd, I did the maffs on the Chosen vs 40 Cultists. It includes Rapid Fire range, CC, DttFE, VotLW, Endless Cacophony, Abaddon buff/Chaos Lord and Exalted Champion buff for Cultists/Chosen. Saves are 5+, 3+, 3+, and 3+. I didn't include the LR, Chaos Lord, the other 80 Cultists etc. 

 

Edit: Grrr. Typo'd Toughness.

[Iron_Within]

So trying to update my lists.... Increasingly annoyed as the cultist points increase is such a huge nerf and the points drops don't help with core troops. We've just been screwed over again in my mind.

[ChazSexington]

So trying to update my lists.... Increasingly annoyed as the cultist points increase is such a huge nerf and the points drops don't help with core troops. We've just been screwed over again in my mind.

 

It depends a bit on the amount of Cultists. You can still take 3x10 for 150pt.

 

I think we're boned for high-end competitive play, but I think we have considerably more options for casual play.

[Iron_Within]

I agree on that front certainly, high level competitive I think we are screwed, but I think we were never up there outside of the soup lists (which I largely don't care about). I mean what shocks me most of all was the Drukhari staying the same (though something something working times etc.)

 

I've been using https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/ to work out the viability of a 10 man Chosen squad with flamers (combi flamer on the Champion). Part of me thinks that combi Flamers would be better be hey ho I've not done the maths on that.

I worked out a 178 point squad of Chosen and pitted it against the same points of Cultists (175, yeah 3 points difference). The assumption in each case is they've got all the same buffs as the other, gone through each time. Each case ignores them dying on the way in - in reality each would have a method of delivery (more cultists, or a Rhino in each case).

 

First Vs Ork Boys

Scenario assumes Prescience has been cast, a Lord within 6", Veterans of the Long war has been used and the Units are shooting and charging, being fully in range to use all of their attacks.

 

Chosen - 83 attacks overall (after averages) 74.972 successful hits overall, 45.819 Wounds, 38.183 Dead Orks (Return of Investment - 150.158%)

Cultists -  175 attacks overall, 95.175 successful hits, 38.887 Wounds, 32.407 Dead Orks, ROI - 129.628%

 

vs Ork Boys part 2, no upgrades.

Scenario as said, no upgrades, no strategems, just unit vs unit.

Chosen - 52 total attacks, 41.667 hits, 20.833 wounds, 17.361 Dead Orks, ROI 68.274%

Cultists - 105 Total attacks, 52.5 hits, 17.5 wounds, 14.583 Dead Orks, ROI 58.332%

 

Vs MEQ

Scenario pits against MEQ with no upgrades

Chosen -  52 total attacks, 41.667 hits, 20.833 wounds, 6.944 Dead Marines ROI 27.308%

Cultists - 105 Total attacks, 52.5 hits, 17.5 wounds, 5.833 Dead Marines ROI 23.332%

 

EDIT: Interesting, in both scenarios it's more points efficient to use Combi Flamers....

 

The unfortunate thing is of course is old Cultists (and therefore Guardsman now) out perform both these units marginally in all cases.... Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhh.... But it's really marginal vs New Chosen.

I mean if they were nuking all hordes I'd be fine with it, but why *JUST* Chaos.