Idaho is going back to tournaments!

[Captain Idaho]

I'm fairly happy with Chapter Approved and the latest Formation for Ultramarines. The points changes aren't the sole positive but also the new mission rules seem to be more beneficial to Space Marines players.

 

Anyway, enough of the reasons why... let's look at the list I'm working on. It's not my normal preference to have such a deficit of Tactical Marines but I've increased my foot print elsewhere.

 

10 CPs from Battalion and 2 Vanguard Detachments

 

Vanguard Detachment

 

Captain - Jump Pack, Soldier's Blade (power sword) and Mastercrafted bolter.

 

10 Vanguard - Jump Packs, 5 Storm Shields and 5 Power Fists

 

10 Vanguard - Jump Packs, 4 Dual Lightning Claws, 3 Storm Shields and lots of Chainswords

 

8 Sternguard - Lightning Claw on the Sergeant

 

Rhino

 

Battalion

 

Tigurius

 

Techmarine - Chainsword and bolter

 

5 Tactical Marines - Heavy Bolter

 

5 Tactical Marines - Heavy Bolter

 

6 Tactical Marines - Plasma and Combi plasma

 

6 Devastators - 4 Missile Launchers and Cherub

 

Vanguard Detachment

 

Lieutenant - Mastercrafted Bolter and Chainsword

 

Contemptor - Kheres assault cannon

 

Dreadnought - twin linked Lascannon and missile Launcher

 

Dreadnought - twin linked Lascannon and missile Launcher

 

The 1st Vanguard Detachment (rather obviously) is the Victrix Guard Formation. Plan is to tear the heart from opponents with the Vanguard Veterans and Captain, followed up by the Sternguard who will either assist in the attack or push units off objectives as the clean up crew.

 

With the new emphasis on taking objectives even when wiped out, I'll be very much up for targeting the opponent's objective scoring elements.

 

Now, the list could have been changed to drop The Mastercrafted Bolter on the Captain, a Tactical Marine and the Cherub to upgrade a Dreadnought to Venerable (not essential but very nice).

 

I'm open to some changes. Does the Sternguard squad need to be included when a 10 Man Tactical squad with dual plasma could do a similar job? The points saved would need to go into a single Elites choice that can go into the 1st Vanguard Detachment.

 

My friend isn't enamoured by the Devastators though. I could swap them out but their firepower is useful. (I can also swap a Missile Launcher around with a heavy bolter for double Hellfire Shells bomb. Goes without saying, just showing the basics.

[Prot]

I'd probably change the Dev squad personally...

 

I think the rest looks test worthy. I am not sure about the Sternguard but I've only run them sparingly. Plasma Combi's on Sternguard would be my selection though, because you can get some shields in there too making them an extremely hard unit to shift.

[Captain Idaho]

I've contemplated Company Veterans for the very reason you've mentioned. Plasmas with Storm Shields (likely using the Breacher Shields models).

 

Regarding the Devastators - Yes I know they're average really but the double Hellfire Shells trick seems to be calling me. Plus Morticon takes Devastator squads and, well, it's Morticon...

 

What do you think? What would your suggestion be regarding an alternative to Devastators?

Edited December 12, 2018 by Captain Idaho

[HighMarshalAmp]

Now that list uses units I like as well, so let me try 

 

First, I'd keep with the two Dreadnoughts, the one Ven would be the center of attention between the two otherwise.

 

The Plasma Tac Squad will do less damage at full strength, but will keep more of its punch as the models die. But is there an Elite choice with 8W, 17A, and 8 AP -2 shots you could take instead? I'd take the Sternguard ;)

 

I'd keep the Missile Launchers just for the range and I'd definitely keep the Dev Squads. They provide a nice balance between firepower and bubblewrap and the Signum and Cherub can boost the former in the right situations. If you'd not just take Hellblasters instead, I'd stick with the Devs - with one exception: 3 Launchers, 3 ablative wounds.

 

Maybe, just maybe, I'd cut down the Sternguard to 5 and take 2 MSU Dev Squads with 2 MLs each instead.

[Prot]

I wouldn't get rid of the Dev squad(s); I just meant I would alter them. I'd get the Heavy Bolters in them, and share the load out with Missile/Hvy Bolter. Depending on the opponent you do the dual cherub thing with the Hvy Bolter or Flakk strat.

 

I personally don't get as much mileage out of Hvy Bolters in Tacticals so I don't personally use them that way. I'd rather do the double tap/mortal wound mechanism. But this is the way I've used them since day one, so it might just be me.

[Jolemai]

My firebase at 2k is currently triple Devastators with Cherub (ML/HB, ML/PC, HB/PC) with a Captain and Astartes Banner nearby. I then have two Tactical Squads with lascannons.

[Captain Idaho]

I wouldn't get rid of the Dev squad(s); I just meant I would alter them. I'd get the Heavy Bolters in them, and share the load out with Missile/Hvy Bolter. Depending on the opponent you do the dual cherub thing with the Hvy Bolter or Flakk strat.

 

I personally don't get as much mileage out of Hvy Bolters in Tacticals so I don't personally use them that way. I'd rather do the double tap/mortal wound mechanism. But this is the way I've used them since day one, so it might just be me.

Yeah my usual method is double plasma in demi-squads really (competitively speaking).

 

Great advice all round peoples.

 

I'll have a bit of a fine tune.

[Captain Idaho]

From what I've worked on, plus the models available (I can't add Centurions, for example).

 

10 CPs from Battalion and 2 Vanguard Detachments.

 

 

Vanguard Detachment

 

Victrix Guard

 

Captain - Jump Pack, Soldier's Blade (power sword) and Plasma Pistol

 

10 Vanguard - Jump Packs, 5 Storm Shields and 5 Power Fists

 

10 Vanguard - Jump Packs, 4 Dual Lightning Claws, 3 Storm Shields and lots of Chainswords

 

8 Sternguard - Lightning Claw on the Sergeant

 

Rhino

 

Battalion

 

Librarian - Force Staff and Bolt Pistol

 

Techmarine - Chainsword and bolter

 

5 Tactical Marines - Plasma gun and Combi plasma

 

5 Tactical Marines - Plasma gun and Combi plasma

 

5 Tactical Marines - Plasma and Combi plasma

 

6 Devastators - 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Heavy Bolters

 

Vanguard Detachment

 

Lieutenant - Mastercrafted Bolter and Chainsword

 

Contemptor - Kheres assault cannon

 

Dreadnought - twin linked Lascannon and missile Launcher

 

Dreadnought - twin linked Lascannon and missile Launcher

 

I have stuck with the Devastators but adjusted the armament. They're much cheaper now and I'd imagine less likely to be targeted as a matter of course.

 

Crucially, I've got a decent amount of numbers on the table to help attritional warfare against Hordes for when Narrow the Search is the mission.

 

I'm a bit disappointed I had to drop Tigurius for a Librarian but the points just weren't there.

 

I'm fancying taking this list against most opponents to be fair. Going to practice in the new year but what sorts of lists and combos do my fellow Ultramarines players and friends consider I'll struggle against?

Edited December 21, 2018 by Captain Idaho

[Kallas]

If my Battlescribe-fu is correct, you don't have a Cherub in the Devastator Squad; could you drop the Soldier's Blade for the Teeth of Terra (lose the AP-4 but gain d3 attacks, still great) as that would free up the points for the Cherub?

 

Looks like a pretty cool list, if a little light on CP (which is just Marines, really). Victrix Guard detachment will immediately eat up 2CP, plus another 1CP for a second Relic, and their stratagems aren't exactly cheap (well, I suppose Fight Like Demigods is fine; Strike First For Ultramar is the back breaker, CP-wise!) - are you running with the intention of Adept of the Codex Warlord Trait?

 

Edit:

To get Tigurius back, you could potentially drop:

 - 3pts spare currently (3)

 - Lightning Claw on the Sternguard Sergeant (8+3=11)

 - 1 Power Fist from the Vanguard (9+11=20)

 

Could be enough to give you a little extra resilience if you don't get first turn: slap the -1 on the more important Vanguard unit. Not sure if the loss of a Power Fist would put them below a critical mass, however.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Kallas

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Casting MoH on your Captain is going to be a lot of fun. My Techmarine has a combi-Plasma (BS2 FTW) and the Teeth of Terra... he’s such a beast.

[garreth]

You can take  one more battalion detachment (and make it victrix) instead of two vanguard detachments to gain more CP. You have exactly 6 Elite choices in both vanguard detachments.

Edited December 20, 2018 by garreth

[Captain Idaho]

But then I need to find points for more Troops, which I'm struggling to do.

 

Full reply later, but...

 

The way I read the Relic rules is the Formation Victrix Guard Detachment Relic is in addition and separate to the usual army Relic. I could be wrong and can easily drop the Primarch's Wrath.

[Captain Idaho]

Okay...

 

@ Gareth: Whilst I like the list a lot I will play around with Battlescribe to see how I can go about fitting in 2 Battalions. I could feasibly drop something like the Devastators etc.

 

I do recognise I'm going to be down from 10 CPs to 8 every game, 7 when you factor in Field Commander but then with Adept of the Codex I should recoup that over a game so it pay a for itself.

 

@ Black Orange: yes Might of Heroes is great fun especially late game for a character. Early game I cast it on the Contemptor to soak fire as people hate him. Toughness 8 with a Techmarine running up the field with him should be a nuisance.

 

@ Kallas: Yes Adept of the Codex on the Lieutenant. His job is to sit at the back with the Dreads and Devastator squad and give some added killing power. Wisdom of the Ancients helps here as it means I save on a babysitting Captain too.

 

I do want Tigurius and will fiddle around to see if I can find 19pts. At the worst I can drop a Missile Launcher off of the Devastators to find the points for him.

 

I must confess that the recent tournament (doubles) I attended, Tigurius saved the Contemptor from certain death against an Astra Millitarum army. 3 Leman Russ tanks fired for 2 turns and couldn't get through his T8 and -1 to hit with enough shots to cause any more than a couple wounds.

 

Of course the Techmarine wasn't in attendance that game so he should be even more annoying as a combination.

[HighMarshalAmp]

So that should total up to a max of 1700pts, right?

 

Take Tigurius instead of the Librarian.

Then, I'd drop the LC on the Sternguard Sergeant - if they get into CC, you've basically lost them already.

And then, you could drop one Sternguard. You have 3 Dreads, that one Sternguard won't really make an impact on this scale anyway.

All that takes you to 1695pts - that leaves the 5 for the fugly Cherub.

[Captain Idaho]

Right now the points should be 1747pts. I think I forgot to say that I'm aiming for that as most tournaments round here are that level. It's a fair amount to add and subtract so the list can remain at its core.

 

I have been looking at the Lightning Claw Sternguard Sergeant and thinking about his removal. In my usual lists he is useful as I use the Sternguard squad with a foot Captain to hit a line after shooting it a little etc but I might need a new Sergeant as I don't much need their combat capacity in this list.

 

And yes fitting in a Cherub for the Hellfire/Flakk missile shenanigans is a positive.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Right now the points should be 1747pts. I think I forgot to say that I'm aiming for that as most tournaments round here are that level. It's a fair amount to add and subtract so the list can remain at its core.

 

I have been looking at the Lightning Claw Sternguard Sergeant and thinking about his removal. In my usual lists he is useful as I use the Sternguard squad with a foot Captain to hit a line after shooting it a little etc but I might need a new Sergeant as I don't much need their combat capacity in this list.

 

And yes fitting in a Cherub for the Hellfire/Flakk missile shenanigans is a positive.

Now where do you want to go with this? A double Battalion would increase your numbers, but you'd have to cut down on the Dreads - and I like the Dreads in that list.

Cutting the Devs alone won't... cut it (Sorry 'bout the pun.) and the Cherub is too valuable to cut along with the Devs because it doubles the Mileage you'll get out of Hellfire Rounds.

Now of course, the two MLs could go into two Tac squads to keep the range, which is something that only comes from those MLs and the Dreads - one of which you'd have to cut.

 

Nah, it's too beautiful a list you made there. Cut one thing to make room for more Tac Squads and you severely impact the ranged combat section.

 

I'll stick with the suggestions I've made previously. The 7CP (effectively 10CP with Adept) should suffice to kick serious backside.

 

Edit: and about the points, I've replicated your list and got to 1719pts. How have you distributed the wargear amongst the VVs to get 1747?

Edited December 20, 2018 by HighMarshalAmp

[Captain Idaho]

The Vanguard are as follows:

 

Unit 1

 

Sergeant - Power Fist and Bolt Pistol

×4 power fists and Bolt pistols

×5 Storm Shields and Chainswords

Jump Packs

 

225pts

 

Unit 2

 

Sergeant - Dual Lightning Claws

×3 Dual Lightning Claws

×3 Dual Chainswords

×3 Storm Shields and Chainswords

Jump Packs

 

224pts

 

I hope Battlescribe isn't incorrect.

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

I hope Battlescribe isn't incorrect.

No, I use Battlescribe as well. I just forgot Jump Packs somewhere along the line. 

 

I'd honestly take it out on the Sternguard in this case. They're the one unit that's very expensive with little survivability. Every lost model hurts and once they get in range to be dangerous, they'll likely be targeted except if you have a Dread babysitting them.

 

Just hypothetically, if you were to drop the Sternguard altogether, you could take 2 5 Man Dev Squads with Cherubs and a Heavy Bolter and Missile Launcher each - that's 200pts total. Then you could take Tigurius and come out at 1692pts.

 

And now let's get crazy, if you dropped the LC on one VV and gave him dual CS instead, you could upgrade one Dread to a Venerable Dread for a grand total of exactly 1700pts.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The two squads have some duality. Let us know how it plays.

[Captain Idaho]

In light of the recent revelation to me that Relics all count the same even in this Specialist Detachment I have adjusted the latest list to include only the one.

 

***

 

After Play Testing it is quite possible the Sternguard might leave. I'd keep the Rhino and put a Tactical squad in there for dual plasma but more importantly objective scoring.

 

Looking forward to the new year and trying out this list on my victims, I mean friends.

[Brother Sergeant Scarus]

I'm surprised you didn't spend those last three points putting another storm bolter on your rhino ;)

 

I really like the list - what have you play-tested it against so far?

[Captain Idaho]

I do have a spare Storm Bolter that might find its way onto the Rhino yet ;) (I was clever enough not to hard glue my models this time lol)

 

My first game will be against Orks in the next few weeks. I am still recovering from the massive change in lifestyle that Christmas brings, but back to normal tomorrow!

 

Personally I fancy my chances as I love the Vanguard in the list.

[Brother Sergeant Scarus]

Haha well good to know the 2nd Bolter is still an option!

 

I'd be interested to hear how your game vs Orks goes, seems like you have a lot of useful tools in the list for taking them on.

 

Good luck!

[Dosjetka]

So, how did your playtesting go? :)

[Captain Idaho]

Been working extra lately so haven't played yet :(

 

But come February I might get a life back lol

 

I'm playing this Saturday against a competetive player so we shall see if there is a stress test here...