Black Legion Rivalries

[Marshal Rohr]

 

You just said three unrelated thing. The first isn’t true, it’s clearly stated Abaddon hears the whispers of the Gods but refuses to be their slave. Sigismund thinking the traitors are less than nothing is a reflection of how he feels about their character, not their material threat to the galaxy.

Willing or not, he IS a slave to the dark gods.

Whether he admits it or not is irrelevant. His soul is damned.

Fair enough on the second point, can't argue.

Their lack of caracther does not make them any less dangerous. But I would expect BT to have a pet peeve with the dudes that defiled the halls of the eternal crusader, killed their first High Marshall and vandalized the black sword.

You didn't address the third one.

Again, if a anyone is satan, it is Lorgar.

I said three and meant two :D

 

Abaddons soul IS damned, but all souls in 40k are damned. There is no 'good place' for anyone to go. Sigismunds Soul was eaten by a daemon. Abaddons soul will be too, one day. Also, Lorgar isn't Satan. He's Vishnu, or Thor, or Apollo, or Baal. He's a god from a forgotten age. He's no more real in the minds of people as Cadia comes under attack as we would be secretly worried its Baal and not Satan if a guy with horns and pitchfork sprang out of a lake of fire. But everyone on Cadia knows Abaddon. Everyone knows who is coming for them.

[Sete]

I bet with ya that siggys soul wasn't!

Codex SM:

Emperor Champion walks in shadow half possessed by visitations of a supernatural vengeance given terrible life.

It's safe to assume that Siggy still haunts the halls of the Eternal Crusader lol

Kudos for Canadian HF for cooking this up on his mad lad mind.

I personally think the Emps saved part of siggys soul and imparts it upon a Champion.

[Kinstryfe]

The Black Legion, whether they want to be or not, are at pray the spiritual successors of Horus. I'd imagine that the majority of the Imperium who realize what they are harbor hatred for them, and I'm not sure any have a specific rivalry as their modus operandi. I'd wager that all of the First Founding chapters hold a special hatred for all of the traitor 9 just on principle, even if it doesn't go to Iron Hands vs Emperor's Children levels. That said, I would imagine that while the relationship may not reach "rivalry" levels I'm sure that the Blood Angels at least consider it to be a bit more personal with the Black Legion, especially with those who profess to have ties to the old legion. Maybe something like "specific enemy" is better phrasing than "rivalry". The Vylka and Dark Angels were "rivals" in that they both had similar goals with different methods, in effect competing to see which was "better". A lot of rivalries were one sided as well, which may describe this better. The Blood Angels harbor a one sided rivalry with the Black Legion, hating them more than other traitors, while the Black Legion as a whole hates pretty much everyone.

 

I feel like we need a giant 18 legion flow chart just to keep this all straight sometimes...

[Laughingman]

They Described in Black Legion "impressive numbers" of the Sons Of Horus giving up the viridian green for the black and gold of the newly founded black legion. So at least some of them survived to see the legion reborn. I suspect they formed loyal stable core for the black legion to recruit outwards from (People are attracted to stable strength)

[Sete]

I disagree that BL are the spiritual successors of SoH. It's the exact opposite. They rejected Horus name and everything related to it.

[Marshal Loss]

They Described in Black Legion "impressive numbers" of the Sons Of Horus giving up the viridian green for the black and gold of the newly founded black legion. So at least some of them survived to see the legion reborn. I suspect they formed loyal stable core for the black legion to recruit outwards from (People are attracted to stable strength)

 

Unprecedented numbers, not impressive. Big difference. But yeah, I totally agree with you. I see the Sons of Horus as more of a solid cultural base at the heart of the Legion, given primacy by the fact that Abaddon is their Warmaster

[Jareddm]

I feel like the types of rivalries people are looking for is happening at a smaller scale between individual Black Legion warbands and specific chapters and companies. To me, the idea that the Black Legion as a whole has a rivalry is a bit silly, but Urkrathos of the Hounds of Abaddon likely has multiple rivalries with various Captains and Chapter Masters.

[Laughingman]

 

They Described in Black Legion "impressive numbers" of the Sons Of Horus giving up the viridian green for the black and gold of the newly founded black legion. So at least some of them survived to see the legion reborn. I suspect they formed loyal stable core for the black legion to recruit outwards from (People are attracted to stable strength)

 

Unprecedented numbers, not impressive. Big difference. But yeah, I totally agree with you. I see the Sons of Horus as more of a solid cultural base at the heart of the Legion, given primacy by the fact that Abaddon is their Warmaster

 

 

My bad for the misquote if its indeed a misquote ( I don't have the book in front of me),

 

The Core of the Black Legion (the former SOH legionaries) likely represented the most cohesive and trustworthy elements of his forces. True believers in his vision rather then allies of mutual goals (Though in a practical sense, the Black Legion is Organized into warbands that usually don't extend beyond a Grand Company (4000-5000))...

[Scribe]

I bet with ya that siggys soul wasn't!

Codex SM:

Emperor Champion walks in shadow half possessed by visitations of a supernatural vengeance given terrible life.

It's safe to assume that Siggy still haunts the halls of the Eternal Crusader lol

Kudos for Canadian HF for cooking this up on his mad lad mind.

I personally think the Emps saved part of siggys soul and imparts it upon a Champion.

 

Safe to assume?

 

You personally think?

 

Marshal Rohr has it right. Its 40K, all Souls are damned (or should be).

 

There's only one place you go when you die.

[Blindhamster]

Small thing, and whilst it's a rules thing, its the rules thing GW have used to represent the in setting "rivalry" or "hatred" of another faction. But BA have a specific stratagem that makes them fight harder against black legion than any other foe.

Also, i agree that as a legion, they probably don't have a specific hatred of any particular chapter of loyalists. It's not like 1k sons who hate the wolves or iron hands who still grudge match with imperial fists. It's likely to be far more one sided.

[Trevak Dal]

A lot of the legions seem to be made with a 1:1 paring. Blood angles : World Eaters, Deathguard : Ironhands, Alpha Legion : Ravenguard, White Scars : Emperor's Children, Imperial Fists : Iron Warriors, Dark Angels : Sons of Horus, Wordbearers : Ultramarines, Space Wolves : Ksons, Nightlords : salamanders

 

You got to wonder if this was done with intent, or 'they were running out of ideas'.

[Kastor Krieg]

Safe to assume? You personally think?

Marshal Rohr has it right. Its 40K, all Souls are damned (or should be). There's only one place you go when you die.

Why, exactly? Because that sounds exactly like the derpiest of the grimderp.

 

If there's no hope, there is no despair. If there's no chance for being saved, for deliverance from the God-Emperor or whatever other fate, even if it's becoming one of the Legion of the Damned and all souls feed the gods in the warp, always, there's no reason to fear death at all since you have zero control over your fate anyway.

 

Also, it's not true. Eldar who die join the craftworld "soul conditioning" systems or are placed in the soul crystals. Any creature who died can be summoned back to life by Yvraine, just like she did with Guilliman, who had to fully die after being brought out of stasis, to be brought back again by her.

 

There aren't any absolutes, there are always exceptions. If everything is predetermined, there's no hope and no drama. It's boring, tedious and inconsequential. The price of failure matters only if there is a prize for success.

Small thing, and whilst it's a rules thing, its the rules thing GW have used to represent the in setting "rivalry" or "hatred" of another faction. But BA have a specific stratagem that makes them fight harder against black legion than any other foe.

In Kill Team, Guard have a tactic vs "heretic astartes" called "revenge for Cadia" - which is basically Abaddon's and Black Legion's fault.

 

I think this is a much more interesting "grudge match" than ex-legion vs chapter / legion, etc.

[Sete]

 

 

I bet with ya that siggys soul wasn't!

Codex SM:

Emperor Champion walks in shadow half possessed by visitations of a supernatural vengeance given terrible life.

It's safe to assume that Siggy still haunts the halls of the Eternal Crusader lol

Kudos for Canadian HF for cooking this up on his mad lad mind.

I personally think the Emps saved part of siggys soul and imparts it upon a Champion.

Safe to assume?

 

You personally think?

 

Marshal Rohr has it right. Its 40K, all Souls are damned (or should be).

 

There's only one place you go when you die.

Tell that to good ol' Celestine.

 

Yes it is safe to assume, and i personally think that not all souls are damned.

 

Ironically legion of the damned also fits the bill there.

 

You cannot have shadow without light, despair without hope as Krieg eloquently said.

 

If you want to have a nihilist approach to 40k be my guest, I rather have my healthy dose of mysticism and superstition with it.

The God Emperor welcomes all the faithful in his ample bosom... Wait a minute!

[Scribe]

The new Eldar fluff, more than anything else in the 'new fluff' upsets the status quo, honestly I don't know if it's been explored yet, but I get the impression it shouldn't work with how the setting was before it was implemented.

 

If the Emperor As Warp Power is realized (and I'm a huge fan of the Starchild) then sure. The Saints of the sisters would point to 'Daemons of the Emperor' as would the Legion of the Damned.

 

However I prefer my BTs to not be religious fanatics, may the Imperial Truth live on.

[Sete]

Ah well. Me too. So far I feel like they had a plan for that lore change, and then abandoned it, and rolled with the fluff all the same.

[Scribe]

Oh, and the prize for success is to see another sunrise.

War is Eternal, the God's are forever laughing, and the Imperium will fall.

My enjoyment of the fluff is not decreased by these truths.

 

I mean was it not the Black Legion book laughing about how LORGAR was right, and proven as such by the Modern imperium?

[Ishagu]

Black Legion will probably end up with an Ultramarine rivalry following Vigilus.

 

I agree that they don't have any direct rivals that stand out. It's probably safe to say it's because they aren't defined by a particular trait which is mirrored by another force.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Think you guys are mixing Black Legion with Sons of Horus.

They are not the same entity.

While Black Legion rose from the ashes of the Sons they are their own thing.

 

Yeah Abbadon uses the Talon that killed Sanguinius, and it drives BA a bit crazy.

 

Sigismund almost killed Abbadon almost destroying the nascent Legion. Their first major encounter after leaving the eye almost destroyed them.

 

I think that would qualify the BT for a bitter rivlary.

 

While I've said before how much I dislike that entire suite of 'new fluff' for Abby and co, isn't it a major point in Black Legion that Abby kills all witnesses (except maybe Khayon? I've heard very contradictory things about the details of that book) to that duel? So the BL wouldn't actually know how close they may have come to destruction, so why would that be fuel for a rivalry?

 

For all their size and strength, the Templars are still only the size of a single middling grade warband when all together. That is not a rivalry. That’s a righteous and ancient hatred, but the Templars could not have beaten the million legionaries the Black Legion brought with them through the Eye during the First Black Crusade. The Black Legion doesn’t spare a thought to the Black Templars.

 

 

Something of a tangent, but is this actually stated in the BL novels? A million BL Marines? If so that's kinda nonsensical and mad. Isn't the First Black Crusade relatively soon after the Legion Wars, and the massive losses sustained by all the Traitor Legions? Where did Abby get so many dudes so quickly? Why does Abby even need the other 8 Traitor Legions, or his '10,000 years and 12 Crusades of prep time' plan when he personally commands as many/more Astartes than the entire Imperium (and that's assuming the Imperium even had the 1000-odd Chapters we're used to in late m31)?

[Panzer]

I feel like many people here are confusing grudges and rivalries.

[grailkeeper]

The whole point of the Third Black Crusade was to desecrate the tomb of Saint Gerstahl. That strikes me as an incredibly powerful rivalry with a specific Guard Commander, albeit one that is over in the current setting because the Black Legion won.

 

Edit: There are also pretty powerful rivalries within the Black Legion itself, if that counts for anything.

[Ishagu]

There definitely aren't one million BL Marines, or even 1 million traitor Marines in total. They would have almost equaled the numbers of the entire Imperium prior to the Gathering storm. They'd have no excuse not to have won an all out direct attack, especially as the Imperium is fighting a dozen massive conflicts at any one time.

 

I imagine there are quite a few Chaos Marines out there. The forces of Chaos would talk themselves up and exaggerate. There are probably around 350,000 tops, including the Legions of the chaos Primarchs.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Black Legion has over at lest 200k during the first Black Crusade per the first page of the chapter titled Vindicta in ADBs book, for what it’s worth.

[Morovir]

The Word Bearers said that the Black Legion outnumber them 10 to 1 in Dark Creed.

[Sete]

But forces are just Marines or are there cultists included?

[Marshal Rohr]

It specifies there are millions of non-legion troops. The black legion is huge.