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Black Legion Rivalries


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#51
Sandlemad

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The BA's feelings about the talon and its wielder feel more interesting because they're not a blunt IF/IW or SW/TS matchup. They're specific, historically contingent and largely one-sided. The BA go berzerk at the sight of the talon (in part because of some psychic resonance thing, I think?) but it certainly doesn't seem to extend beyond that to the wider BL or to be the kind of thing that has coloured 10k years of their history.

 

Abaddon might screw around with them but it's not the defining grudge and it's clearly not a big deal for the wider BL. I think it's good to have a range of different relationships rather than trying to artificially make neat pairs of loyalists/traitor legions where it doesn't actually contribute much of interest.

 

 

They Described in Black Legion "impressive numbers" of the Sons Of Horus giving up the viridian green for the black and gold of the newly founded black legion. So at least some of them survived to see the legion reborn. I suspect they formed loyal stable core for the black legion to recruit outwards from (People are attracted to stable strength)

 

Unprecedented numbers, not impressive. Big difference. But yeah, I totally agree with you. I see the Sons of Horus as more of a solid cultural base at the heart of the Legion, given primacy by the fact that Abaddon is their Warmaster

 

 

I think this cuts to the quick of it. Khayon kind of equivocates about how much the SoH heritage really means to the BL, consciously and unconsciously, but most of it does seem to be in traditions and culture (the heart tapping thing, Cthonian terminology, topknots probably) rather than drawing from particular moments of their history or adherence to old personalities/hierarchies (see Abaddon being venerated because he's Abaddon the Warmaster, rather than because he used to be first captain).

 

Seeing as any feelings about Sanguinius are routed through Horus, a figure who is rejected by the legion, I can't see that as reasonably being part of SoH legacy.


Edited by Sandlemad, 16 December 2018 - 12:28 PM.

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#52
Ishagu

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The Word Bearers said that the Black Legion outnumber them 10 to 1 in Dark Creed.


So assume there are 200k black Legion, means there are around 20k word bearers (and they are supposed to be quite numerous)

So yeah, around 350k in total for all chaos Astartes makes sense.

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#53
Marshal Rohr

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You have no proof of that.
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#54
Brokejaw Gutripper

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I think a rivalry needs to be old, continuous, and even. The two sides should have a history of hatred, wins and losses, famous confrontations, and be thought of in the same breath with ease.

Thousand Sons/Space Wolves and Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors are the two that stand out as legitimate rivalries. I think the Iron Hands have a hatred of the Emperors Children for how close the legions were and that Fulgrim gave Ferrus too close a haircut, but I don’t think the EC give two thoughts about the Iron Hands enoughto be a rivalry. Even Ultramarines and Word Bearers don’t really get to that level in my opinion.

As far as Black Legion/Black Templars or Blood Angels, I don’t think either one has a true rivalry. They aren’t really consumed with thinking about the other, even though the Blood Angels probably have more reason to hate the Black Legion than anything else.

It’s ok to have the history these legions do without feeling the need to assign rivalries to them.
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#55
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The BA's feelings about the talon and its wielder feel more interesting because they're not a blunt IF/IW or SW/TS matchup. They're specific, historically contingent and largely one-sided. The BA go berzerk at the sight of the talon (in part because of some psychic resonance thing, I think?) but it certainly doesn't seem to extend beyond that to the wider BL or to be the kind of thing that has coloured 10k years of their history.

Abaddon might screw around with them but it's not the defining grudge and it's clearly not a big deal for the wider BL. I think it's good to have a range of different relationships rather than trying to artificially make neat pairs of loyalists/traitor legions where it doesn't actually contribute much of interest.



They Described in Black Legion "impressive numbers" of the Sons Of Horus giving up the viridian green for the black and gold of the newly founded black legion. So at least some of them survived to see the legion reborn. I suspect they formed loyal stable core for the black legion to recruit outwards from (People are attracted to stable strength)


Unprecedented numbers, not impressive. Big difference. But yeah, I totally agree with you. I see the Sons of Horus as more of a solid cultural base at the heart of the Legion, given primacy by the fact that Abaddon is their Warmaster

I think this cuts to the quick of it. Khayon kind of equivocates about how much the SoH heritage really means to the BL, consciously and unconsciously, but most of it does seem to be in traditions and culture (the heart tapping thing, Cthonian terminology, topknots probably) rather than drawing from particular moments of their history or adherence to old personalities/hierarchies (see Abaddon being venerated because he's Abaddon the Warmaster, rather than because he used to be first captain).

Seeing as any feelings about Sanguinius are routed through Horus, a figure who is rejected by the legion, I can't see that as reasonably being part of SoH legacy.

BA rules wise have a generic anti black legion rule. So that suggests the animosity goes further.

There have been a few specific BA/BL events where BA came off pretty badly and it probably has only fuelled that over the millenia

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#56
Marshal Rohr

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That wouldn’t be unique to the Blood Angels though. For every Blood Angels and Black Legion engagement there’s hundreds of other chapters who’ve fought the Black Legion too. The Blood Angels only ever being a thousand means they can’t really rival the Black Legion, so those famous clashes don’t extend beyond the famous clashes. The psychic effect of the Talon on the Angels is a cool piece of flavor, but it’s like the old Dark Angels rule where they’d get extra points for capturing a model that knows about the fallen. Does it make sense for someone to know about the fallen in every engagement? No, but it was there and made the games more fun. Same for the Blood Angels.

Edited by Marshal Rohr, 16 December 2018 - 01:20 PM.

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#57
Morovir

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Five Hosts of Word Bearers numbered almost seven thousand brothers in Dark Creed, and it is said that:

 

"‘More than twenty Hosts have sworn their allegiance to the Brotherhood,’ said Ashkanez. ‘Dozens more will join before Erebus has any idea of the danger he is in.’"

 

This suggests that the Word Bearers are sizeable, and far more than just 20k strong.


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#58
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You have no proof of that.


Just using common sense and my very deep knowledge of the lore to come to a reasonable conclusion.
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#59
Morovir

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And what leads you to the conclusion that the Black Legion is 200,000 strong?


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#60
Marshal Rohr

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You don’t have ‘very deep knowledge’, Ishagu. You are making things up to make chaos marines look weak because it bothers you that the Ultramarines aren’t a threat to the Black Legion.

Edited by Marshal Rohr, 16 December 2018 - 01:28 PM.

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#61
Ishagu

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And what leads you to the conclusion that the Black Legion is 200,000 strong?


Apparently it's in an ADB book lol
I'd have guessed a lot less personally. Maybe 30-40k

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#62
Morovir

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Source?


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#63
Ishagu

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You don’t have ‘very deep knowledge’, Ishagu. You are making things up to make chaos marines look weak because it bothers you that the Ultramarines aren’t a threat to the Black Legion.


Lol no I'm not. I've read more 40k novels and have been in the hobby longer than 90% of people. I'm just pointing out what makes sense.

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#64
Marshal Rohr

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Source?


I gave it earlier. First page of the Chapter named Vindicta in Black Legion. Talks about hundreds of thousands of legionaries and millions of auxilia and mutant forces.

You don’t have ‘very deep knowledge’, Ishagu. You are making things up to make chaos marines look weak because it bothers you that the Ultramarines aren’t a threat to the Black Legion.

Lol no I'm not. I've read more 40k novels and have been in the hobby longer than 90% of people. I'm just pointing out what makes sense.

No, you’re taking an oblique shot at the Black Legion because your an Ultramarine fanboy and you don’t like the fact that a Black Library author has laid out that Abaddon is more powerful and important than Guilliman.
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#65
Marshal Loss

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You have no proof of that.


Just using common sense and my very deep knowledge of the lore to come to a reasonable conclusion.

 

 

Your deep knowledge of the lore appears to have missed the fact(s) that

 

1) You're forgetting a minimum of 140,000 Death Guard (upwards of 250,000 highest possible estimates) which already turfs your numbers

2) Those BL numbers are from the very beginning of their rise to power

3) Estimating overall numbers of (insert x) is completely pointless because of the dearth of available evidence. You can no more put an accurate numerical figure on the number of Chaos Space Marines than you can precisely determine how many mountain goats are present in the setting

 

I'd also point out that Anthony Reynolds' WB trilogy was from an era where the Legions were not as large as they are now (even taking into account disparity between 30k & 40k), so using his numbers as more than an incredibly rough indicator isn't really valid.

 

And finally and more importantly, ADB's Black Legion doesn't actually say 200,000 Legionnaires. It says hundreds of thousands of legionaries. How on earth does your common sense lead you to a conclusion of c. 30k-40k marines?

 

Evidently a deep knowledge of the lore and common sense isn't a substitute for actually reading the relevant literature.


Edited by Marshal Loss, 16 December 2018 - 01:40 PM.

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#66
Ishagu

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I'm not arguing against Abaddon. I just think that his transformation into a wise, cunning Warlord isn't particularly believable following his depiction as a less than bright, blunt instrument in the 30k novels...

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#67
Morovir

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OK, my mistake, though Ishagu, hundreds of thousands does not mean 200,000.


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#68
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That ‘less than bright, blunt instrument’ also sacked Hive Illium and bled the entire VIth Legion during the wolf cull. You’re picking and choosing sources to make Abaddon look stupid, and he’s the premier marine commander of twenty full legions of brilliant commanders.
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#69
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The Word Bearers said that the Black Legion outnumber them 10 to 1 in Dark Creed.

So assume there are 200k black Legion, means there are around 20k word bearers (and they are supposed to be quite numerous)

So yeah, around 350k in total for all chaos Astartes makes sense.
What? Death Guard alone are around 200,000 in the 41st (now 42nd) millennia. That's per numbers in the codex. And Black Legion is larger.

Edited by DuskRaider, 16 December 2018 - 04:58 PM.

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#70
Morovir

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From The Lords of Silence:

 

Spoiler

 

This indicates that the Black Legion outclasses the other legions by far.


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#71
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Cool thread !

 

I tend to think the Black Legion, as it stands, is above rivalries, unlike the Black Legion warbands who are Chaos marines, led by Chaos Lords who aren't really that different from other lords. Plus, on the battlefield, it's easy to hate on an individual level.

 

Being so huge, sets them in a league of their own, where no single military entity can really rival them, that's a given, but I really think that's something else that prevents them from having rivalries.

 

The Black Legion's view on individuals isn't determinist. They don't believe you're meant to be as you are. They aren't only the sons of their respective fathers, they have chosen their own way, chosen a new brotherhood. At the core, the Black Legion is built around recognizing you have the choice. What makes them alike (for the most part, it's way more diverse in detail) is the crusade they took : the Long War. From Abaddon to Low-Ranking Chaos Marine #35698723. Taking that into account, you could very well be a son of any Primarch, even loyalist and become a black legionnaire. There's even a Fallen Angel among the founding members of the Legion. And why the hell not ? He has made the same choice for himself.

 

That prevents them from essentializing (is that a word in english ?) their enemies. So they don't hate them. Khayon doesn't hate loyalist marines, he finds them pityful, deluded, enslaved (isn't he too, in a way ?). But I like Khayon, because he's a great example. For him, like probably many others, becoming a Black Legionnaire was letting the past go. Stop thinking about Space Wolves destroying his homeworld. Moving on. He even goes on telling us the Black Legion calls the Space Wolves "the deceived" in Chtonian, and not in a mocking way but a way emphasing the skill of the deceiver. This isn't hatred, this is pity.

 

Remember Abaddon asking Sigismund and the Templars to join him. He did not hate Sigismund, he admired him, and wanted him to become his brother. Because he could've been, from a Black Legion point of view, had he chosen so.

 

They still have a huge amount of hatred, that's for sure, but that's probably more for the Imperium as a whole. Maybe the Emperor and his freakish primarchs. Or the gods.

 

Sorry for the potentially shoddy english !


Edited by Vesper, 16 December 2018 - 09:48 PM.

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#72
Lord_Caerolion

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I'm not arguing against Abaddon. I just think that his transformation into a wise, cunning Warlord isn't particularly believable following his depiction as a less than bright, blunt instrument in the 30k novels...

 

...Because he spent decades wandering the Eye of Terror following the Scouring, on an endless pilgrimage, learning from the failures of the past, watching the endless infighting, and studying daemonic lore. That was kinda the whole point of his introductory sequence in Talon of Horus. He vanished from the Legion Wars because he was seeking a better way.

 

EDIT: Also, "less than bright"? Sure, he was shown as aggressive and blunt, but he wasn't stupid. He was the First Captain of the Sons of Horus, the most-esteemed Legion in the Imperium. Stupid doesn't get you a captaincy, let alone First Captain.


Edited by Lord_Caerolion, 17 December 2018 - 12:06 AM.

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#73
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About 10 thousand years of time and Ishagu doesn't believe a Marine could learn a thing or two. Sorry man sometimes your pro loyalist bias is really showing. :D


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#74
Brokejaw Gutripper

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Perturabo had a consuming need to prove himself against Dorn, who in turn had an aloof air of superiority to Perturabo. They both commanded legions that shared the same war doctrine, and both were widely considered the best at what they did. Their legions bled each other from almost the start of the Heresy, and engaged in the greatest siege in the history of the galaxy twice. The old Legion descendants continue to seek each other out and continue to have a hatred of each other above being enemies.

Magnus and Russ had two completely opposing views on a central conflict to the Imperium, and both legions nearly beat each other to oblivion. Their continued engagements into the 41st millennium often stem from the fact they are actively seeking the other out, not they happen to be in the same campaign areas and engage each other by chance.

The Black Legion is above all these types of rivalries and to bring up numbers or who their leader is adds nothing constructive to the argument. They simply don’t have as tightly bound a history with another group as other more defined rivalries. I’d argue they are more rivals to the Emperors Children than they are to anyone else. A Black Legionary doesn’t give two craps that they slaughtered Samguinius. That was a victory that’s over and done with. It doesn’t matter the Blood Angels still might be seeking vengeance.

There needs to be an equal give and take over a long period of time for a rivalry to exist.

#75
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Let's also not forget that a whole bunch of the Black Legion are recent converts or recruits. To them, the Heresy was ancient history, the Long War is the only thing they know. What does it matter to Brother Timmy, who was originally a Praetor of Orpheus, that the Black Templars fought the Black Legion during the first Black Crusade, or that the Talon of Horus was used to kill Sanguinius? He was born in the year 39,475. Those events are literally ancient history to him. The key point of the Black Legion is "we are not the Primarchs".


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