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2000 pts of sorcerers, dusty bois and daemons

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#1
Quixus

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I cobbled together a list:

 

Spoiler

 

The daemon detachment is intended to be made up of three Start Collecting! Tzeentch Daemons boxes and a Blue/Brimstone Horrors box to keep it cheap money wise. If you have a cheaper idea to make a good daemon battalion please tell me. With another box of Blue/Brimstone Horrors I would probably go with two units of one blue nine brimstone horrors and give the TDA sorcerer a combi melta.

 

Warlord, warlord trait and psychic powers are not yet set in stone but I would like your suggestions.

 

Any other ideas how to make the list better, that are not "more goats"? I don't want goats in that list.


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#2
Tokugawa

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If you go full Tzeentch, you should bring best mages of Tzeentch.

What are best mages?

Ahriman, 3x DP, (Magnus). Cost effective(both on money and points), and don't need to build too many models.
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#3
Quixus

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Thanks for the tip. The list actually includes more Tzeentch daemons than I originally had in mind. Initially I wanted a cheap(ish) battalion with screening units for my Thousand Sons (remember, no goats), but instead of using the different boxes I looked at the Start Collecting sets and then wondered what to do with all the other models. As you can see everything but the screamers is in the list.


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#4
Tokugawa

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Thanks for the tip. The list actually includes more Tzeentch daemons than I originally had in mind. Initially I wanted a cheap(ish) battalion with screening units for my Thousand Sons (remember, no goats), but instead of using the different boxes I looked at the Start Collecting sets and then wondered what to do with all the other models. As you can see everything but the screamers is in the list.

 
Remember, Ahriman(once riding disc), TSons DP and Magnus also have "Tzeentch daemon" keywords, and could receive buff from your daemon detachement. e.g. +1S from Changecaster(not very relative) and 6+FNP from Changeling(useful).

#5
Quixus

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Thanks for the tip. The list actually includes more Tzeentch daemons than I originally had in mind. Initially I wanted a cheap(ish) battalion with screening units for my Thousand Sons (remember, no goats), but instead of using the different boxes I looked at the Start Collecting sets and then wondered what to do with all the other models. As you can see everything but the screamers is in the list.

 
Remember, Ahriman(once riding disc), TSons DP and Magnus also have "Tzeentch daemon" keywords, and could receive buff from your daemon detachement. e.g. +1S from Changecaster(not very relative) and 6+FNP from Changeling(useful).

 

Interesting. While stratagems are no longer available Daemon psychic powers still work on the Thousand Sons daemons.


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#6
CrystalSeer

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This is very similar to my list. Main critiques would be: burning chariot is bad, it's stronger to just use exalted flamers for 45 points less that then can't be targeted as characters. They are also very unreliable as anti-tank due to short range, low bs, and low damage.

Flamers can be grouped together to spread 'flickering flames' to more models. Pairing it with a well placed herald allows you to get 9d6 shots that auto-hit, and wound most infantry on 2's / tanks on 4's.

Warlord could be herald with daemonspark. Makes your pink horrors s4 and re-roll 1's to wound. That's pretty good at 90 shots. Other option is termi Lord for +2 on first cast and +1 on subsequent powers.

You need some plan for anti-tank.
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#7
Quixus

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This is very similar to my list. Main critiques would be: burning chariot is bad, it's stronger to just use exalted flamers for 45 points less that then can't be targeted as characters. They are also very unreliable as anti-tank due to short range, low bs, and low damage.

I went for the burning chariot because of the better movement, but I missed that the exalted flamers also had FLY. So I will use them instead. Now what to do with the chariots? Fateskimmers?
 

Flamers can be grouped together to spread 'flickering flames' to more models. Pairing it with a well placed herald allows you to get 9d6 shots that auto-hit, and wound most infantry on 2's / tanks on 4's.

Good idea, I totally forgot about that option. It makes the flamers more vulnerable to morale though. Alo you may waste a couple of shots.
 

Warlord could be herald with daemonspark. Makes your pink horrors s4 and re-roll 1's to wound. That's pretty good at 90 shots. Other option is termi Lord for +2 on first cast and +1 on subsequent powers.

Both sound tempting. Why not Ahriman?
 

You need some plan for anti-tank.

My plan is smite which is always 5+ on Thousand Sons and the DPoT, exalted flamers as backup.

I updated the list:
Spoiler

Too bad I cannot fit chanting horrors or staffs of change in that list. Do you think they are a great loss? Should I make room for them?

Edited by Quixus, 29 December 2018 - 04:31 PM.

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#8
Paladin777

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Smite makes for unreliable anti-tank as getting that many Psykers closer to tanks (which typically want to be far away from the front lines) is quite difficult.

#9
CrystalSeer

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This is very similar to my list. Main critiques would be: burning chariot is bad, it's stronger to just use exalted flamers for 45 points less that then can't be targeted as characters. They are also very unreliable as anti-tank due to short range, low bs, and low damage.

I went for the burning chariot because of the better movement, but I missed that the exalted flamers also had FLY. So I will use them instead. Now what to do with the chariots? Fateskimmers?
 

Flamers can be grouped together to spread 'flickering flames' to more models. Pairing it with a well placed herald allows you to get 9d6 shots that auto-hit, and wound most infantry on 2's / tanks on 4's.

Good idea, I totally forgot about that option. It makes the flamers more vulnerable to morale though. Alo you may waste a couple of shots.
 

Warlord could be herald with daemonspark. Makes your pink horrors s4 and re-roll 1's to wound. That's pretty good at 90 shots. Other option is termi Lord for +2 on first cast and +1 on subsequent powers.

Both sound tempting. Why not Ahriman?
 

You need some plan for anti-tank.

My plan is smite which is always 5+ on Thousand Sons and the DPoT, exalted flamers as backup.
]
Too bad I cannot fit chanting horrors or staffs of change in that list. Do you think they are a great loss? Should I make room for them?

 

 

I usually don't make my TSons the Warlord because their WL traits aren't really that great. Ahriman's is +1 to invuln, but he is optimally not the closest unit so should not be getting targeted. Most sorcerers get a +1 to cast, which is ok, but only a 15% increase and is very fickle for a single roll. An extra power is kinda redundant when you can already cast with almost every unit. Most others don't get used. Compare that to Daemonspark which grants re-rolls of ones to nearby units. Next to your horrors, that's 15 re-rolls on average right there, not even counting if you get multiple units in range.

 

And Paladin is right, smite spam will not be enough to counter serious armor. Frankly, tzeentch suffer from this as a whole. 

 

If I use every caster in my 2k list to cast smite, AND they're in range, AND it goes off, AND I max wounds, that will be 18 mortal wounds from smite. That is enough for one rhino. It will not kill a knight.

 

Smite is a good supplemental anti-tank, for when you just need to knock off a couple of wounds, but you really need something stronger if you expect to not be owned by armor,



#10
Quixus

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So what would you take out to make room for proper AT? What good AT units do we have?


Edited by Quixus, 10 January 2019 - 09:58 AM.

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#11
CrystalSeer

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So what would you take out to make room for proper AT? What good AT units do we have?

 

I'm still looking at this as a whole. The consensus is that the codex options are not good enough "for competitive play". However, I grew tired of tournaments long ago (been playing 20 years) and don't want to use that as a rational to buy forgeworld units that cost an arm and a leg while still dying easy and making all my opponents hate me. I'm also avoiding using CSM allies for the time being because I'm already using two books (TSons + Daemons) and don't really want to use a third, though to be fair, it is an option.

 

Given those personal constraints, I'm looking at the obvious: options in the TSons codex are forgefiend, maulerfiend, hellbrute, or pred for dedicated AT. Daemons have either buffed mass shooting or Exalted flamers.

 

Forgefiend and maulerfiend I ruled out. They cost too many points to run multiples without sacrificing the main strengths of playing TSons in the first place (high rend anti-personnel fire en -mass), and maulerfiend needs multiples in order to get to combat. Exalted flamers look good at first, but their damage output is too low to work in low numbers.

 

What remains is what I'm using / would recommend. Hellbrutes, Predators, and massed daemons fires. Hellbrutes and predators are straight forward: they are buffed by spells, strategems, get-rolls from sorcerers, etc. Give them Las and missiles and point them at the enemy. Just make sure to keep them bubble wrapped and positioned to avoid enemy fire.

 

Daemons have the spell 'flickering flames', which opens up some tasty options. Combine it with the herald's aura, Cast on 30 horrors, and you have 90 shots that can wound most armor on 4's. Cast on flamers, and you can get up to 12 d6 auto hits, wounding on 4 with ap -1.

 

My take is combine these elements:  Use daemons to do mass wounds, hellbrutes and preds to do some heavy hitting, and finish it off with smite.

 

 

If this doesn't work for you, you can always buy the latest ultra-killy turbo laser spammer 5000 from forgeworld, or ally in havocs or obliterators from CSM. 


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#12
Quixus

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Sounds good, which "turbo laser spammer 5000" are you talking about?


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#13
CrystalSeer

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They have several. The one I was thinking about when I wrote that is called a Cerberus I think? Saw it while perusing batreps on YouTube. It did something like 33 wounds in one volley.

Effective yes, but if I played that in my club I'd stop getting games.

#14
Quixus

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Holy moly, the hellforged variant is even more powerful than the loyalist one. I was thinking more along the more friendly vehicles like a sicaran or a spartan.


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