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SoH Combined Arms 2500/3000 points


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#1
BackBreakinBane

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RoW: The Black Reaving

LoW
Horus
500 pts

HQ
Maloghurst
140 pts

MoS
Power Axe
110 pts

Troops
Tactical Squad x10
Extra Chainswords, Melta Bombs
Rhino
Heavy Bolter
195 pts

Tactical Squad x10
Extra Chainswords, Melta Bombs
Rhino
Heavy Bolter
195 pts

Reaver Attack Squad x15
x15 Chainaxe, x12 Banestrike Bolters, x3 Flamers, Jump Packs, Melta Bombs
445 pts

Elites
Justaerin x5
Multi-Melta, x3 Power Axe, x2 Chainfist
300 pts

Fast Attack
Outrider Squad x3
x3 Plasma Gun, Power Axe
175 pts

Outrider Squad x3
x3 Plasma Gun, Power Axe
175 pts

Xiphon Interceptor
Armoured Cockpit, Chaff Launcher, Ground Tracking Augeries
225 pts

Heavy Support
Sicaran Battle Tank
Heavy Bolter, Lascannons
215 pts

Heavy Support Squad x8
x8 Volkite Culverin, Melta Bombs
Rhino
Heavy Bolter
325 pts

Total: 3000 pts

Maloghurst and the MoS go with the Volkite squad and their Rhino, Horus goes with the Justaerin

List is either 2500 or 3000 depending on if I take Horus or not

Also I know the MoS really shouldn’t be in melee, but I gave him the axe mostly so I could use the other guy the Maloghurst model comes with

#2
Spiritual Liege

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No point in running Black Reaving. It is quite crap, and you get Reavers as troops anyway with Maloghurst. Also no need for Tactical squads, Horus makes Justaerin troops so you already have 2 troop choices.

 

Why do you have two separate Outrider units? Make them a single bigger unit to reduce the point cost.

 

Reavers shouldn't have all that wargear. Either make them shooty (in which case its wiser to take Veterans anyway) or melee. I'd suggest dropping all the bolters and the flamers and just stick with the chainaxes and some power weapons. For Justaerin, get rid of the multi-melta and give everyone some combi-weapons and power fists. Not only does this reduce the IRL cost since you don't have to purchase both fists and Justaerin axes, fists are also better in every case and combi-plasma is great with Death Dealers and teleportation,

 

Rhino is useless for your HSS. They don't need to be mobile.


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#3
Varyn

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Good feedback from Spiritual Liege, I have a couple more things to add:

 

As mentioned above, you don't really gain anything by using the Black Reaving RoW. I would suggest The Long March, it'll give your heavy support squad relentless in your deployment zone and gives you shooting re-rolls to hit of 1 in the first turn (amongst other benefits)

 

I'd say you're a little light on anti tank, the reavers/tactical marines only get melta bombs on the chieftan/sergeant, which means they will probably struggle to take out dreadnoughts/tanks.

 

I would recommend taking some machine killer vets in an anvillus dreadclaw, you can drop them in turn 1 and with the Long March RoW bonus, you'll be hitting on 2's (death dealer), rerolling 1's with your combi melta's.


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#4
Vykes

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-ponders and looks around- I dunno, I kinda systemicaly disagree with SL on a lot of it here, but I go for a minimum alteration approach to suggestions.  If you already have all the models then no worries, play it how you like ti and make it work for ya, mate!  

 

Black Reaving isn't great, but if we're set on it, then leverage it: Cut them Down is about the only really good advantage and that's gonna be... interesting to take advantage of.  Encircle is just pure odd and very situational as a positioning bonus (Fleet on a unit from non-deepstrike reserve).  And the rite requires an additional compulsory troop choice (so, 3 on top of the Master of Signals). 

 

Reavers, they're fun and I think the question isn't 'ranged or melee' it's 'Ranged?'  Banestrike is horrifically pricey, and flamers are interesting but to what end?  To what role will they contribute?   If it's about sweeping out infantry, I think it might be a bit underpowered in the ranged department for how expensive they are.  But chain axe Reavers are a nice way to go even for light to medium emergency tank hunting due to the St.5 and flurry of attacks they'll be getting.  For such a minimal investiture of points, they more than double their effectiveness against Armour 10 vehicles (as they can get a pen over glancing).  Likewise, while I'm not the biggest fan of power axes on Sons of Horus,(we get few enough bonuses, why lose that Ruthless extra attack for AP2 when you can take a power fist and get a chance to ID a character or seriously crump a tank?)   this is an enormous investment unit with one glaring issue of 'rubber lance syndrome'.  They can't tackle other astartes, terminators, or characters with reliability.  Is there a way we might at least toss the chieftain a bone with a power fist?  I'd even go that mile and sacrifice the flamers for another.  I like Reavers, I think even ranged Ravers are charming, and spend however many points you want but don't forget that you just need one cheeky character to come along and bop that unit on the nose with a rolled up newspaper, locking them in place for a while. 

 

Now, lets talk about the bikes. 2 outrider units are pricey, but what use are they gonna fill?  Are they assassin units meant to take down the big meanie units in other armies?  Because 2 sets of twin-linked plasma is expensive and not really enough to bring them down.  It's a role that plasma support, or the ever classy seekers do very very well (now that Marksmen Vets isn't a thing).  And if it's because you need more Fast Attack than Heavy support choices (which you do, because it's the Black Reaving), how much do you want to use that plasma as plasma? Because outriders can be a good way to make that elusive Cut Them Down actually trigger!  Engage a unit, then mop up with a secondary charge in the following turn with your Reavers or tacticals after the unit has been tarpitted.  But with plasma it makes them far less expendable which makes that a less readily disposed-of tool.  

 

Now the Volkite: -taps foot a bit- Choom is cool, we all know it, but to what end?  The Rhino (and all the heavy bolters) are pricey enough, and in this case it's not doing you a lot of good.  The Rhino (and the melta bombs) are just excessive for a unit that wants to loiter around (their snap firing stumbling isn't cute when they clown car it from a Rhino). 

 

I'm definitely in agreement when it comes to the mechanics of Spiritual Liege's take on Justaerian.  Power weapons are expensive, Sons of Horus don't get much out of power axes, power fists are going to contribute a lot more, exponentially so if they're having to take on other elite 2 wound terminators.  Combi-weapons are, likewise, great for them.  But hey, if it's about the look of the axes, take 'em, I getcha: I have 10 Justaerian and 6 of them have single lightning claws because I think they look absolutely rocking, then 4 chainfists... no it's not super effective, but man I love the look and wouldn't trade 'em out for on paper effectiveness quotients. 

 

Y'know, just you do you, we're here for advice. 


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#5
Varyn

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Y'know, just you do you, we're here for advice. 

 

One of the best bits of feedback you can get on any list :)



#6
BackBreakinBane

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Hey guys
Sorry it took a while to respond to this. You’re feedback has been fantastic so a huge thanks to all of ya!
Does this look any better?

RoW: The Black Reaving

LoW
Horus
500 pts

HQ
Maloghurst
140 pts

MoS
95 pts

Troops
Tactical Squad x10
Extra Chainswords, Melta Bombs
Rhino
Heavy Bolter
195 pts

Tactical Squad x10
Extra Chainswords, Melta Bombs
Rhino
Heavy Bolter
195 pts

Tactical Squad x10
Extra Chainswords, Melta Bombs
Rhino
Heavy Bolter
195 pts

Reaver Attack Squad x15
x15 Chainaxe, Jump Packs, Melta Bombs
305 pts

Elites
Justaerin x5
x5 Combi-Plasma, x3 Power Fist, x2 Chainfist
325 pts

Fast Attack
Outrider Squad x6
x6 Plasma Gun, x2 Power Axe, Sergeant, Melta Bombs
295 pts


Xiphon Interceptor
Armoured Cockpit, Chaff Launcher, Ground Tracking Augeries
225 pts

Heavy Support
Sicaran Battle Tank
Heavy Bolter, Lascannons
215 pts

Heavy Support Squad x10
x10 Volkite Culverin
315 pts

Total: 3000 pts

Since the HHS with Maloghurst and MoS don’t have to fit into a Rhino any more I thought I’d bump them up to full size to maximise their firepower

Took the advice for the Justaerin, but thought it’d be good to keep the chainfists for some better AT potential when Horus isn’t with them (also because I already ordered two chainfists lol)

Thought for a while about what I could fit in with the leftover points, thought it’d be best to put in another squad of troops to better contest with objectives, it also means I can use all the Rhinos I got in the Demios bundle I got already from FW

Thanks again for the advice :D
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#7
Vykes

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Aye, it's looking good.  Just remember, it's "The Black Reaving" so you need more Fast Attack slots than Heavy Support: so switching Reavers over to Fast Attack would give ya the 3-2 split and let you keep both the Heavy Support Squad and the Sicaran.  It's merely an organizational switch is all. 


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#8
JDizzle

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Aye, it's looking good.  Just remember, it's "The Black Reaving" so you need more Fast Attack slots than Heavy Support: so switching Reavers over to Fast Attack would give ya the 3-2 split and let you keep both the Heavy Support Squad and the Sicaran.  It's merely an organizational switch is all.

Although, they will no longer be scoring. In fact, those Reavers should be 355 points. I think OP forgot to account for their jump packs!

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the heavy bolters on the rhinos. I reckon dozer blades would be a better investment.

60 points on CCWs for the tacticals might be points better spent elsewhere. I'd be tempted to make the points back there.
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#9
Vykes

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Aye, good catch on the Jump pack miscount, JDizzle, mate!  And true, the Reavers wouldn't be scoring, but then the Outrider group would have to be split again so the Sic and Heavies could stay around.  Otherwise one Heavy Support would have to get dropped. 

 

I'm definitely on board with not having heavy bolters on rhinos, and it's probably my go to for reductions.  As for the 60 points for CCW's, it's a really tough call but I am incline to agree.  Those Rhino's aren't assault transports, and while I like CCW's on troopers like 16th Legion (so they can occasionally tip the balance of a combat, then get another attack on top of that with Merciless) they aren't in big numbers where they can guarantee that numerical supremacy or even that they'll get into close combat on favorable terms.  In conjunction with the Reaving's Cut them Down it might be enough if the Outriders can engage then try to domino some squads and protect the debarking troopers for the round that they're really vulnerable but that's a fairly slim hope. 


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#10
BackBreakinBane

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Darn it, sorry bout that lol
Putting the Jump Packs back on the Reavers, I could drop those Heavy Bolters like you said and one of the HSS guys to bring it back down to 3000. Also I could drop the Heavy Bolter on the Sicaran to give the HSS an Augery Scanner and the Reaver Chieftain a Hand Flamer for some added utility

All things considered I might switch to the Long March RoW, those bonuses look far better, plus I can keep the Reavers as scoring troops when Maloghurst is the Warlord at 2500 points

#11
BackBreakinBane

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Oh also it probably is a good idea to drop the CCW’s on the tacticals, but MK IV Marines with underslung Chainswords are aesthetic as hell dude, plus more attacks never hurt in a pinch lol
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#12
Spiritual Liege

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All things considered I might switch to the Long March RoW, those bonuses look far better, plus I can keep the Reavers as scoring troops when Maloghurst is the Warlord at 2500 points

Do this. Then you can opt to cut the Master of Signal, if you find that 95 points for +1 bs and a bombardment attack isn't worth it. Getting rid of the third Tactical squad would be good as well, I don't think you need that many points invested in troops. Get a second Xiphon or Sicaran with those points, or at least upgrade them to Veterans if you absolutely need more power armour.

 

I still don't understand why would one run Tacticals as troops with Horus in the list, but if it is for theme or something then by all means keep them. Just acknowledge that Veterans are better in every way in game.



#13
Vykes

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I don't think I normally agree with Spiritual Liege on much when it comes to the listing front, but cutting the Black Reaving to the Long March is probably a good idea mechanically, as is cutting extra hand weapons in the list (keep the underslung weapons, they look awesome like ya said).  No comment on cutting tacticals*, or that notion that veterans are just 'better' in every way.  At the 10 man size, though, yeah pretty big difference. 

 

But if we're going on the gamey front: dropping the Master of Signals, heavy bolters on Rhinos, take the jump packs, now you've opened up your heavy support a bit so you aren't stuck having to split the bikes or lose a Heavy Support.  

 

* I think it's fundamentally wrong in every way that gives me gross shivers, and I'm prepping 60+20 breachers for a 3K game tomorrow so do what ya like. 


Edited by Vykes, 11 January 2019 - 03:00 PM.

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#14
Spiritual Liege

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Tacticals accomplish pretty much nothing except securing objectives, Veterans can actually do some killing while securing objectives. Death Dealers and Horus making them troops seals the deal, at least for me.

 

Tacticals are the backbone of the Legion, yes. But Horus specifically makes Veterans and Justaerin troops so you could play him with his elite instead of Tactical Squads. You now have 5 troop choices in the list, which I think just isn't good for you. 4 is enough, and you could use some extra firepower. How do you counter any heavy armour with the above list? Horus, Xiphon and a single squad of Terminators just aren't enough in 3k. If you know you will be against little armour and have a strong themed reason for keeping the third Tactical Squad in, then do it. Otherwise, it would be best to just cut them and take something else.


Edited by Spiritual Liege, 11 January 2019 - 03:30 PM.


#15
Vykes

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I don't fully disagree, though part of that is born from experience: with the death of the Marksmen Vet, unless we're going Machine Killer, then I see people's expectations of Vets get kinda crazy.  They're flexible but it's still a bit of a points sink and not quite as reliable as Death Dealer Plasma Seekers in the field clearing department. 

 

Veterans get stuck at 10 and  blown to bits just as easily as tacticals while paying more, the extra bodies that tacticals can provide and their ability to outnumber enemy infantry so I get a chance with Merciless Fighters tends to put them over the edge for me. Other legions are different, but it's just how I've found I like my Sons of Horus. 

 

The melta bombs aren't an all-in-all solution, not without something else to follow it up, but they work decently for area saturation for being at least a threat.  I do agree that it's lacking in ways to deal with truly heavy armour.  But I'm looking at the culprits being the Outriders and Volkite's, not the tacs.  Outriders and Volkite Culverns are getting pricey: either of them would return the cost of the Reaver's Jump packs and, and either get a lightning with Kraken penetrators that'll punch the lights out of a Spartan in strafing run, or a pair of Vindicator Laser Destroyers.  Meanwhile, adding Vets isn't going to get you any closer to not running away from a Fellblade or whatever Super Heavy they could bring out in 3K.  


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#16
Spiritual Liege

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Veterans die very easily in the Age of Darkness, you are right. But when taking them in Rhinos, like in the above list, fact that Tacticals can get 20 isn't relevant, and 20 Tacticals will get blown to pieces by enemy artillery. Don't get me wrong, Tacticals definitely have a place in a legion and I run footslogging Tactical Squads myself as well, but when taking mechanized squads in Rhinos with Horus allowing Vets as troops, I'd definitely get the Veterans. 

 

But that was besides my point. Getting more serious dakka in to the list is the first priority, and I think the third Tactical Squad is the best squad to cut. You suggested getting rid of the Outriders or Volkite Culverins instead, but I don't think this is very good. Which will accomplish more, 30 Tacticals, and two anti-tank units or 20 Tacticals, a Heavy Support Squad and two anti-tank units? I think the latter. 



#17
Vykes

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I don't like switching lists too much until they're tried, but I wouldn't remotely call Outriders or Volkite Culvern's anti-tank.  They're anti-infantry, and given the penchant for Death Dealers, I've never seen the purpose in twin-linked plasma gun bikes for that price-point.  Other legions can use it, but I can't get behind it.  When you have tacticals/veterans, you have Reavers, you've at least got a good chance at saturation in light infantry suppression, the outriders and culverns are overkill to me when the primary issue is heavy armour, not light armour.  

 

So it's how to stop a Spartan+ tank. How should we do that?  And it's not being snarky for the record, like legit, what are we seeing that compliments this?  Assault Squad with melta bombs? Vindi-destroyers, Venator, etc. 


Edited by Vykes, 11 January 2019 - 04:31 PM.

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#18
Spiritual Liege

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I wasn't saying Outriders or Culverins were anti tank. I never did. The point is that something needs to be cut in order to include more anti tank in the list. And what should we cut? A good unit that can deal damage to targets its supposed to, or a fifth troop choice that has laughable damage output and only scores objectives, when we already have enough scoring? Four troop choices is more than enough in my opinion, so why would we drop the Outriders or Heavy Support marines when we can drop that almost useless Tactical Squad?

 

For the actual units, Laser Vindicators and Lightnings seem the best to me. A Lightning can crack open almost any tank, barring super-heavies, but it unfortunately becomes useless after it has unloaded its payload. Other than those, either a Contemptor or Leviathan in a Drop Pod handles the job quite well and is very fluffy for Sons of Horus. The Leviathan just costs so many points that in order to get one some additional cuts need to be made.



#19
Vykes

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Yeah, and Vets for scoring are just there for padding too without giving them the upgrades to make use of their specializations which inflates their price even more.  So if they're there for mechanized scoring, why not take minimal naked tac squads and save the 55+ points per squad for actual killers?  I'd cut the immobile 10 man power armour unit that costs as much as a pair of battle tanks before shrinking my troop options, especially if they're supposed to just be seizing far-flung objectives rather than killing. Outriders can work but with that many, that big, I wouldn't be keeping em over a mobile flyer.  It's not that good when it unloads its ordnance, but unless there's an augery flak missile battery or something weird like a mastodon around, at least there's a decent chance that it'll get to make its rocket run and then bail.  I fear the shatter shells and bassie batteries that liquify troop choices that aren't in 2+ armour.  Like I said, I have baaaaad bad luck with veterans, who die quick and cost more while having to be in the same deployment vectors as cheap tac squads.  They can work but they need to have a purpose for me, and given merciless fighters and Death Dealers, it's really down to making a big psuedo command squad with a 3+ save, or machine killers (which is a totally legit use for them).  

 

I agree: the Vindicator and Lightnings, Venator, even some melta bomb stripped down outriders or assault marines might have the numbers to crack open even the super heavies which is what I kinda fear for (Typhon in particular).  If we follow the Long March (which I think you nailed as the right and effective rite), the drop pods or anvillus become very real options. The Leviathan can work, but that's a deep cut that's almost at the point of "Horus and pocket change". 


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#20
Spiritual Liege

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I still don't agree with playing any Tacticals with Horus, but I don't think we are making any progress in this debate so let's just leave it at that.

 

 

Yeah, and Vets for scoring are just there for padding too without giving them the upgrades to make use of their specializations which inflates their price even more.  So if they're there for mechanized scoring, why not take minimal naked tac squads and save the 55+ points per squad for actual killers? 

Exactly this. The minimum two squads + additional scoring from Reavers and Justaerin are enough, the third squad isn't needed in the list in my opinion. The list would benefit more from another unit dealing damage than even more troop choices.



#21
Vykes

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Aye, it might well be a lot of stuff that goes into the perspective (still a good discussion mate, no hard feelin's eh?) 

 

My only problem with Justaerian (more than reavers) is that they need to be in the thick of it, so unless they're pushing to contest objectives they aren't gonna have the luxury of sitting on an objective.  They're so small in number, so slow, and so expensive that it feels they need to really be working every turn, every time.  I just hate feeling led around by my nose with the elite terminators. 

 

I do agree that this could really benefit from more firepower, and more AT firepower in particular.  I like the Long March, I think that it makes heavy support squads a lot more viable if only so you can readjust and get a better line of sight on targets that could otherwise bob and weave behind a telephone pole as it were. It's also a lot less limiting, so more heavy support and options for infiltrate and deep strike which bring drop pods back to the menu.  Volkite Culverns are cool, I just... they fit a weird role for me compared to something like autocannons.  Leviathans, contemptor-mortis, and (as you pointed out) Sicarans are probably the ones I'd be suggesting, too. 


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#22
Spiritual Liege

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Aye, it might well be a lot of stuff that goes into the perspective (still a good discussion mate, no hard feelin's eh?) 

 

 

None, I really enjoy a good conversation whether we agree or not.

 

Sicarans are good, but the Battle Tank version isn't very good vs heavy armour. Venator is the one if you are looking to include another Sicaran. 


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#23
Vykes

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  • Location:Canada
  • Faction: Sons of Horus 65th company

Aye, they're really a nice fast medium battle tank and not too much more.  I mean, they can take a heavy tank... if you're supremely lucky, which I totally am not.  Venator feels like the right fit here.  They aren't super expensive either.  

 

Anything but Omega, really.  I want to like them, I really do. 


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