28 replies to this topic

[Deafbok]

Hey all,

With the points drops in CA2018 one particular unit stood out for me immediately - Company veterans.

With one of our primary complaints being a lack of durability, the discount on storm shields seems to make these guys worth a look.

It also really appeals to me as a fluff option - almost a "DiY Chapter Special Unit", so to speak. "Phalanx Guard" seems to be the name sticking in my head for this concept, basically:

5 company veterans with storm shields and Combi-plasmas.

They come in cheaper than devs or Hellblasters, are mobile, can fit most transports, and should be a pain to deal with if they get proper support (apothecaries, ancients, captains & LTs all add something).

That said, given that their ideal range of engagement would be at 12", is it possibly worth mixing the unit slightly and dropping one or two shields for close combat weapons like power fists, hammers, axes etc, or would they likely be fine with a support captain & LT in tow to countercharge most threats?

I also haven't given much thought to chapter tactics for these guys. IH would probably add to the frustration of taking these guys out, IFs would give them a bit of bite against targets in cover, & UMs would keep them mobile even if caught by dedicated assault units. I don't see WS, Salamanders or RG being great for them due to loadout in the former 2 cases, preferred engagement range for the latter. BTs might allow slightly more threat range with the Crusader Helm on one of the support characters, but are also lackluster at first impression.

So, worthwhile unit? Drop a couple of shields for CCWs?

[Brother Adelard]

You clearly haven't read Vigilus Defiant if you think BT Company Vets are, "lacklustre".

Please step into our forum, for your re-education...


In order to fill you in, for a CP you can pay for the new Sword Brother detachment and have access to 2 new strategems which can give company vets an extra attack plus the ability to re-roll wounds and a second which confers a 5+ FNP.

[Deafbok]

You clearly haven't read Vigilus Defiant if you think BT Company Vets are, "lacklustre".

Please step into our forum, for your re-education...


In order to fill you in, for a CP you can pay for the new Sword Brother detachment and have access to 2 new strategems which can give company vets an extra attack plus the ability to re-roll wounds and a second which confers a 5+ FNP.

 

Indeed! Though I see BT Company vets tend to lean towards the "Sword" in "Sword Brothers"!  

For a combi-plasma "Breacher"-style unit, though, I think the latter of the 2 stratagems you mention is likely the one with more utility, since I for one would prefer to have my plasma shooting instead of bashing! 

[MARK0SIAN]

I really like company vets, although I tend to keep them simple with storm bolters and chainswords but shields will help if you intend to keep them at range. They’re still quite vulnerable to a reasonable weight of fire though so I wouldn’t expect them to be seriously tanky.

The biggest problem with company vets though is the units size. Being limited to 5 men means sticking a captain and an LT with them is a serious points investment for a small unit. I’d be more tempted to either run another unit of vets or spend the points from the captain elsewhere. Then you can use the vets as a mobile, heavy firepower unit and harass the enemy.

TL:DR the vets plan sounds good but I wouldn’t bother with the captain to support them unless he’s also buffing other units with them.

[nusphigor]

I was looking to try out a unit of 5 with 1 combi plasma and 4 plasmaguns, see how different are they in comparison to hellblasters (other than the wounds, of course)

[Deafbok]

Based on models I either plan to get or already own, this was the idea I had for this mini-detachment:


++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [40 PL, 761pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**

+ HQ +

Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Lieutenants [5 PL, 87pts]
. Lieutenant: Jump Pack, Plasma pistol, Power sword

+ Elites +

Apothecary [3 PL, 55pts]

2x Company Veterans [8 PL, 135pts]
Veteran Sergeant:Combi-plasma, Storm shield
4 Space Marine Veteran: Combi-plasma, Storm shield

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 110pts]: Twin lascannon

Razorback [5 PL, 115pts]: Lascannon & Twin Plasma Gun

++ Total: [40 PL, 761pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

DiY chapter, as noted, so CTs are fair game

[Captain Idaho]

Company Veterans seem like a great unit to have 2 units working in tandem from the same transport. 3 such units can fit into a Crusader. It helps over their weakness of lack of numbers.

[Panzer]

We've had a few of these threads in various subforums now, which is understandable since it's about a super customizable unit that just got much better, however I feel like I have to remind everyone again that while Stormshields are great against Plasma which is the bane of Space Marines it still doesn't help with most other anti-infantry shooting which Marines also suffer greatly under with their one wound.

Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannons and similar will barely notice a difference against SS Veterans except that the model they killed was 2p more expensive and shooting from other Troops which usually have AP0 don't notice any difference at all except that they killed more points without any additional efford.

Stormshields on Terminators is great because their 2+ armour swallows all the AP0 shooting easily and they have more than one wound so most anti-infantry shooting requires more efford to get rid of them. Same goes for characters with Stormshield due their multiple wounds. Veterans with only one wound and a 3+ save will become prime target for all the basic Troops your opponent has in the army. Bolter, Lasguns, Pulse Rifles, whatever Skitarii are carrying, Stormbolter on vehicles ... they all will be just as threatening to SS Vets as before.

 

So keep that in mind when kitting the unit out.

I personally would go with full Sword&Board for thematic reasons but if I wanted a more competetive loadout I'd probably go with just two SS in a unit and the rest with Stormbolter and/or Chainswords as side-weapon to keep them cheap.

[Deafbok]

Well, I've just picked up a Deathwatch Getting Started kit as a base for my two units. Enough options in there to play a bit with loadouts!

[Lemondish]

So, regarding that durability issue...here's a thing...

 

Company Vets on Bikes are still valid per the Index.

 

Run them with storm bolters and storm shields and you end up with a 200 point unit with 10 T5 3++ wounds that spit out 40 shots in rapid fire and moves up to 14''. Can only tank wounds for biker characters, though.

 

There's also a slight chance this goes away when they inevitably make Index entries open play only  

[Acebaur]

Well if you are going to take CC oriented company vets then BT is by far the best option. 5 sword and SS is only 100 points and can pump out an enormous amount of damage when paired with Helbrecht who just got a nice points drop himself.

[Deafbok]

Well if you are going to take CC oriented company vets then BT is by far the best option. 5 sword and SS is only 100 points and can pump out an enormous amount of damage when paired with Helbrecht who just got a nice points drop himself.

I imagine mixing in other, more specialist CCWs would add some serious oomph, especially given the points drops on things like power fists!

[Acebaur]

Yeah a couple of powerfists couldn't hurt but I think the consensus in the BT forum is to have a squad of pure PS&SS as well.

[MARK0SIAN]

If you’re going sword and shield with that list then I wouldn’t go with Black Templars, I’d go with Blood Angels. There’s nothing that Black Templars can do in assault that Blood Angels can’t do better (if you look at my picture you’ll see that I say this with a heavy heart).

With some support, a BA unit can have those power swords wounding meqs on a 2+. Black Templars can’t get anything like that, even with Helbrecht. Plus no one can build Jump pack HQs like BA.

BA are not the best choice for the ranges set up but if you’re going purely CC then they beat Black Templars any day.

[Captain Idaho]

Play like a Space Marines army with a decent attacking element. I know my Victrix Guard aren't breaking the BA assault record but they perform the job well and the rest of the army shoots and takes objectives.

(Whilst the theory is BA can also do such roles, most BA armies aren't built like that and those that are lack some of our flavour)

[Acebaur]

If you’re going sword and shield with that list then I wouldn’t go with Black Templars, I’d go with Blood Angels. There’s nothing that Black Templars can do in assault that Blood Angels can’t do better (if you look at my picture you’ll see that I say this with a heavy heart).

With some support, a BA unit can have those power swords wounding meqs on a 2+. Black Templars can’t get anything like that, even with Helbrecht. Plus no one can build Jump pack HQs like BA.

BA are not the best choice for the ranges set up but if you’re going purely CC then they beat Black Templars any day.

Depends on what we're talking about here. As a whole yeah BA are better going pure CC army but even then you need shooting to survive these days. If we are talking about the company vets? I would definitely argue BT are far superior to BA with that unit. With the new detachment, BA can't come close to the amount of damage ours can put out. Run with Helbrecht and applicable strats, you reroll everything have +1S, an extra attack and a fnp roll. BA mat be able to wound on 2s but statiscally wounding on 3s with rerolls is better.

[MARK0SIAN]

If you’re going sword and shield with that list then I wouldn’t go with Black Templars, I’d go with Blood Angels. There’s nothing that Black Templars can do in assault that Blood Angels can’t do better (if you look at my picture you’ll see that I say this with a heavy heart).

With some support, a BA unit can have those power swords wounding meqs on a 2+. Black Templars can’t get anything like that, even with Helbrecht. Plus no one can build Jump pack HQs like BA.

BA are not the best choice for the ranges set up but if you’re going purely CC then they beat Black Templars any day.

Depends on what we're talking about here. As a whole yeah BA are better going pure CC army but even then you need shooting to survive these days. If we are talking about the company vets? I would definitely argue BT are far superior to BA with that unit. With the new detachment, BA can't come close to the amount of damage ours can put out. Run with Helbrecht and applicable strats, you reroll everything have +1S, an extra attack and a fnp roll. BA mat be able to wound on 2s but statiscally wounding on 3s with rerolls is better.

But BA would also get the hit rerolls from a chaplain and there’s less that would need rerolling if you’re wounding on 2s. The sanguinary priest not only increases their strength which enables them to wound on 2s, he can potentially revive one if he dies. Plus BA do all that without having to spend a single CP which is not the case for BT. I’m not saying BT are bad, just that BA are better. The end result in terms of casualties may actually be quite similar but BA got there with less investment in terms of points and CP.

I take your point about shooting but the list that’s being asked for help on isn’t a shooting list. The only units hat would shoot in it are the razorbacks and they’re identical for BA and BT.

[Dracos]

I keep hearing Black Templars got a sweet Formation in the Vigilus book. Long War guys were saying it was at least as good as Blood Angels if not better.

Vigilus sold out at my LGS so waiting on a replenishment to get all the facts in print

[MARK0SIAN]

I keep hearing Black Templars got a sweet Formation in the Vigilus book. Long War guys were saying it was at least as good as Blood Angels if not better.

Vigilus sold out at my LGS so waiting on a replenishment to get all the facts in print

1 CP to upgrade a BT detachment to a Sword Brethren detachment. Helbrecht, Emperors Champion, Captains and Company Vets get ‘Sword Brethren’ as a keyword.

Gives access to a couple of stratagems:

1 CP to give a unit of Sword Brethren a 5+ FNP save

1 CP increase the Attacks characteristic of a Sword Brethren unit by 1 and lets them reroll failed wounds.

[Acebaur]

I keep hearing Black Templars got a sweet Formation in the Vigilus book. Long War guys were saying it was at least as good as Blood Angels if not better.

Vigilus sold out at my LGS so waiting on a replenishment to get all the facts in print

1 CP to upgrade a BT detachment to a Sword Brethren detachment. Helbrecht, Emperors Champion, Captains and Company Vets get ‘Sword Brethren’ as a keyword.

Gives access to a couple of stratagems:

1 CP to give a unit of Sword Brethren a 5+ FNP save

1 CP increase the Attacks characteristic of a Sword Brethren unit by 1 and lets them reroll failed wounds.

The second strat is 2 CP not 1

[Panzer]

The only thing BT got over BA here is the additional attack and that they pay CP instead of relying that much on multiple characters. So yeah if we add all those things I'd say BT are the better pick as long as you don't try to hit T6+ with your Powerswords.

[MARK0SIAN]

The only thing BT got over BA here is the additional attack and that they pay CP instead of relying that much on multiple characters. So yeah if we add all those things I'd say BT are the better pick as long as you don't try to hit T6+ with your Powerswords.

But BT still need Helbrecht or a chaplain to reroll the hits, just as BA do. It essentially boils down to: is +1 attack that still wounds on 3s (4s if you don’t take Helbrecht) and reroll wounds at the cost of 3CP (BT) better than Normal number of attacks that wound on 2s with no reroll at the cost of bringing a sanguinary priest (BA). I don’t think it is,

I think the BA one is better, particularly as it applies to both units of veterans in the list whereas the BT can only affect one of the units.

Edited by MARK0SIAN, 29 December 2018 - 06:40 AM.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe we should calculate the exploding 6s too?

On that basis I feel the BT version of this combination is good used alongside 2 units of Company Veterans at least. Also remember that the Warlord Trait works on characters.

[Panzer]

 

The only thing BT got over BA here is the additional attack and that they pay CP instead of relying that much on multiple characters. So yeah if we add all those things I'd say BT are the better pick as long as you don't try to hit T6+ with your Powerswords.

But BT still need Helbrecht or a chaplain to reroll the hits, just as BA do. It essentially boils down to: is +1 attack that still wounds on 3s (4s if you don’t take Helbrecht) and reroll wounds at the cost of 3CP (BT) better than Normal number of attacks that wound on 2s with no reroll at the cost of bringing a sanguinary priest (BA). I don’t think it is,

I think the BA one is better, particularly as it applies to both units of veterans in the list whereas the BT can only affect one of the units.

 

 

BT get a 5+++ via 1CP Stratagem from the specialist detachment while BA need an Ancient with relic banner for that. Also Helbrecht combines the buffs from a Chaplain and a Sanguinary Priest in a single model.

So that's two less characters. Unless we want to emulate the re-roll for the to-wound roll from the 2CP then it'd be an additional Lieutenant but lets just say it balances out with the Red Thirst. Especially with the additional attack the Stratagem gives.

It's MUCH easier to handle having a single character in range of your melee unit and then pay 3CP for the remaining buffs if you want all of them than trying to have 3 characters in range (especially when the banner requires to be in range of every single model) I'd say. ^^

 

So the only difference really is that BT combine two characters in one, pay 1CP to remove the need for a third character and finally to compete with Red Thirst they can pay 2CP and I'd say +1A and re-roll to-wound rolls beats +1 to-wound rolls. It makes them more CP dependant but also more reliable and much more flexible.

Luckily it doesn't really matter which is superior because both are good melee units and BA still have their chapter specific melee units like Sanguinary Guard which are basically flying Terminators that don't just fall over against mass shooting as easily as Company Veterans regardless of Stormshields or not.

Edited by sfPanzer, 29 December 2018 - 11:15 AM.

[Schlitzaf]

Also secondly even outside of company Vet Deathstar. We can keep our guys in range easier with Crusader’s Helm (9” aura’s) with our Marshall’s. While it’s not Helbrect +1 Strength it makes the Congo question less of an issue.

Secondly, in terms of fueling Strategems. We have three good troop options. Have one of the best backfield Troops with Faux Devi’s.