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Detachment Hopes and Speculation

- - - - - Iron Hands Vigilus White Dwarf

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#1
Dumah

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++Commencing Simulus++

...

...

...

 

Brothers in Iron, with the recent attention lavished on certain Chapters in Vigilus and White Dwarf, my hopes for something new and interesting for the Iron Hands and their successors is kindled anew. Not being one normally prone to flights of fancy or distasteful mortal frailties such as optimism, I find my cognitive functions warming to the calculus of probability. Considering the order of battle, It stands to reason that we may expect a Specialist Detachment in Vigilus book 2 for either the Hands themselves, or one of their two Successors present. Failing that, White Dwarf is a reasonable alternate possibility.

 

What then, brothers, do we expect or hope for? 

 

Addendum: do try to keep within the bounds of realistic expectation.

 

 

>>Improbability is simply inevitability viewed over too short a time frame<<


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#2
The Ergonomic Enginseer

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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

But I do feel we have had a bit more attention lately.


Edited by the ergonomic enginseer, 31 December 2018 - 06:40 AM.

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Head of ire, lead and wires"

 

The Stupendium - Lyrics to "The house always wins"

 


#3
Iron Father Ferrum

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Our schtick if you will is resilience and vehicles, so improvements to those is what should be focused on; Templars got bonus attacks, for example, which reinforces their theme of being zealous in close combat. So I would do something like +1 to Flesh is Weak rolls (bringing us on par with Death Guard); an Automated Repair stratagem that repairs d3 wounds on a vehicle (or character!) and can stack with a Techmarine repair roll; bring back the Gorgon's chain as a relic that grants +1 to invulnerable saves to a max of 3+ and +1 to FiW rolls to a max of 4+; and a warlord trait called Interlaced Targeting Matrix: chapter units within 6" ignore the first -1 to be hit when shooting at an enemy unit.

I'm sure I can think of more.
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#4
Dumah

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+ 1 to Flesh is Weak does seem like a safe bet, considering we've had it before. I really like the idea of Interlaced Targeting Matrix too, very fluffy!

 

Given the way detachments have worked so far, I expect any kinds of buffs would be limited to certain units. Something for Dreadnoughts would be most welcome - maybe allowing for them to be taken as HQ choices and/or given Captain auras. As an unabashed fan boy of Terminators, I'd like to see some unique stratagems and perhaps an option for upgrading standard squad sergeants with TDA like in the old days; anything to make them more relevant or, failing that, fun to use. OR, if we're getting really pie in the sky, Terminator alternatives in the form of highly cyborgized veterans with integrated weapons systems and extra resilience - reflected by a stratagem upgrade or two to give them heavy weapon options that function as assault weapons and an in-built invulnerable save.

 

As always, a special character would be a logical addition. However, I have doubts that would be possible through Vigilus detachments. Perhaps WD?



#5
Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch

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I think a stratagem/warlord trait that may spring from Vigilus/WD would be something akin to the rule we have in HH, where shooting attacks are at -1 strength against us.
However, given how the rules changed, I think a more logical option would be a flat -1 to wound rolls against models with keyword IRON HANDS.
Renders us immune to Str2 weapons, greatly improves chances of survival against equal-strength weapons (Str4 requires 5+to wound) and reduces the effectiveness of antitank weapons and poisoned weapons. This would have to be a bubble warlord trait to avoid it being wasted/too good, but I think GW may provide it for us.

Pipe dream? Yes. Improbable? Perhaps. Eventual? With enough time given to the wait.

That said, everyone else’s suggestions make a lot of sense. Gorgon’s chain was an amazing relic and I want it back.
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#6
Dumah

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I think a stratagem/warlord trait that may spring from Vigilus/WD would be something akin to the rule we have in HH, where shooting attacks are at -1 strength against us.
However, given how the rules changed, I think a more logical option would be a flat -1 to wound rolls against models with keyword IRON HANDS.
Renders us immune to Str2 weapons, greatly improves chances of survival against equal-strength weapons (Str4 requires 5+to wound) and reduces the effectiveness of antitank weapons and poisoned weapons. This would have to be a bubble warlord trait to avoid it being wasted/too good, but I think GW may provide it for us.

Pipe dream? Yes. Improbable? Perhaps. Eventual? With enough time given to the wait.

That said, everyone else’s suggestions make a lot of sense. Gorgon’s chain was an amazing relic and I want it back.

 

I think this would be excellent, though maybe a bit too strong; making toughness 8 immune to small arms seems to go against 8th edition design philosophy. Adding a caveat of "always takes a wound on a 6" and I think it would be more palatable.



#7
Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch

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Wouldn’t be needed because no infantry model has T8 and our vehicles can’t get Chapter tactics.
Fair point about for the infantry and S2 weapons though.

Either way, I think the number of situations where it would come up—


Never mind. Dreadnoughts. They could end up immune to lasguns. I take back everything I said. Fair point. Though given that 7+ saves exist, I think it isn’t impossible to have 7+ to wound, given that (I think) there are to wound mods in the positive range.

Dosjeska: But then again we are Iron Hands, we will use a hammer as a scalpel. Ace Debonair: Loyalists bow to The Emperor, Heretics bow to their Dark Gods, but everybody bows to Captain Semper. Brian Blaire: Bolted for emphasis
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#8
Dumah

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As long as we're drawing inspiration from HH, what about a character class similar to the Praevian to represent Iron Fathers? An HQ choice that unlocks access to Admech bots in the detachment would be fun and fluffy. This could be easily implemented as a detachment upgrade for Techmarines or Chaplains (or both?).


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#9
lhavoc

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The new novels suggest some possibilities. Those Uber-Terminators that function as Guards (and Enforcers) for the Voice of Mars? Advanced data links within squads and Clans for Targeting? A Death Cult dedicated to Ferris Manus? Deploying an entire Clan Fortess-Crawler in combat?

Increasing our Feel No Pain to match Death Guard would be great, but it doesn’t quite make the mark as my concept of the Iron Hands. Unlike Death Guard, which placed heavy emphasis on heavy infantry, I think of Iron Hands as heavily mechanized or armoured. So not as fast and dynamic mech as White Scars, nor grinding slow seige and trench Warfare as Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors, etc. Something more in between.

Fast as but tougher Infantry. An emphasis on heavier assault vehicles (ala Land Raiders as options for standard squads). More accurate and devastating Artillery (add some Guard Medusa’s?) Some form of Fast Armoured/Air Cavalry (Transports and Anti-Tank/Ground Supression) and an emphasis on pinpoint Targeting. Standard tactics would focus on WWII Blitzkreig or Soviet “Red Tide” assaults with massive/short duration Artillery prep followed up with close assault mech advances.

Edited by lhavoc, 16 March 2019 - 01:25 AM.


#10
Marshal Valkenhayn

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As an outsider with a fondness for my fellow loyalists, I would like to see you guys get an army wide 5+ feel no pain. However, where the DG get the ability to ignore heavy weapon and assault weapon penalties, you should probably get something to represent your more mechanical style, as mentioned above. It doesn't need to be a complicated rule. it could be as simple as 'treat all heavy weapons mounted on vehicles as assault weapons' which would shift the focus away from your infantry and make all of your vehicles better mobile firing platforms. Basicly the exact same rule as DG, but applied to vehicles.

 

That aside, I'm sure the rest of you could come up with some nifty strategems, relics, and warlord traits to build off of that foundation. But honestly, I'd rather you not make an appearance as a special detachment in Vigilus. You guys deserve a White Dwarf and an update to your core rules, not a -1 CP specialist detachment with a single warlord trait and some over priced strats. Trust me. The shininess of that peace offering wares off pretty quickly.

 

Then again, I'd love to see Iron Hands stomp some skulls in the fluff, so it wouldnt' be all bad.



#11
Iron Father Ferrum

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Honestly? I'm open to both possibilities. I'd prefer revamped & expanded rules via IA rather than a detachment, but if all we get is a detachment, I'll take what I can get.
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#12
Dumah

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In light of the surprise introduction of the Lord Discordant for the filthy traitors, I can't help but wish they had done something to that effect for us... One can only hope for something special when we finally (hopefully?!) get our Kardan Stronos.



#13
Iron Father Ferrum

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Oh I hope we never get that trash character as a model.
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#14
MasterHQ

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It's probably too much, but I would like to see a return to the old days of fluff, before the Clan Raukaan fluff completely changed the chapter...
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#15
Amadeo

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"Wrath of Iron" & "Flesh" represent the Iron Hands that I identify with the most.
Both were excellent examples of the cold, calculating & ruthless blackk Angels of death that I envision.

Edited by Amadeo, 17 March 2019 - 12:03 AM.

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#16
Dumah

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Oh I hope we never get that trash character as a model.


I only meant something new and outside the norm of space marine characters. Iron Fathers should be something unique and innovative.

#17
Iron Father Ferrum

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Oh I hope we never get that trash character as a model.

I only meant something new and outside the norm of space marine characters. Iron Fathers should be something unique and innovative.

But they're neither of those things. In the old fluff I cling to, Iron Fathers were *literally* Chaplains with power axes and a servoarm. In the new fluff, they're any Techmarine, Apothecary, Librarian, Chaplain, or officer nominated to the Council. They have never been anything special or unique in rules terms.

The only things that ever set the Chapter apart in terms of access to cool stuff was Venerable Dreadnoughts (only us and the Wolves had them in 3rd Edition) and Terminator Sergeants in Tactical Squads (options in 3rd & 4th Edition, and which only Wolves can do now via Wolf Guard).

Now, if we got a Helfather kit, that would be all right with me. It's one of the few newly introduced fluff elements I actually like. They could be a single model Elite choice, maybe even a character.
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#18
lhavoc

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Since it appears that we won’t be seeing any Iron Hands love in. Vigilus II, I believe that this could be the start of some suggestions for an Iron Hands Supplement for White Dwarf. Let’s start with some things that I think would be good and very one can feel free to slap me down to get the discussion started👍🤓

As we have seen in the latest books there are some interesting ideas. Such as:

1. A model for Kardan Stronos. (Oh! Please!)
2. A model for Iron Father Kristos ???
3. A model for a Helfather
4. Some form of datalink capability between squads and support elements that allow + to hit or extra damage caused by superior Targeting capability.
5. Upgraded toughness
6. Upgraded Feel No Pain
7. Superior Armour (such as “It Will Not Die” and/or Relentless/Fire on the Move)
8. Increased Invulnerable Saves for Dreadnoughts and Terminators
9. Upgraded/More devastating Artillery.
10. A Unique “Iron Father” model.

Is it too much to ask?

#19
Dumah

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I'm not so sure how sorry I am we won't get anything in Vigilus Ablaze. From what I've seen so far of Chaos detachments, it's all rather low effort gimmicks. White Dwarf seems a much safer route if we want something of substance. I wouldn't get my hopes up though.



#20
MegaVolt87

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I'm not so sure how sorry I am we won't get anything in Vigilus Ablaze. From what I've seen so far of Chaos detachments, it's all rather low effort gimmicks. White Dwarf seems a much safer route if we want something of substance. I wouldn't get my hopes up though.

 

Wow, just wow. I can't believe there was nothing for Iron Hands in the new book when there was such a setup for them in the first book. Maybe FW has something in the pipeline for you guys hopefully. Just doesn't make sense. 


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#21
Iron Father Ferrum

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I believe it. We've always the least popular of the First Founding Loyalists among both the fans and GW staff.

I've been a fan for so long though that I'm inured to it
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#22
Johanhgg

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The thing is i just cant understand why Iron Hands never, ever, ever get any attention. Not since clan raukaan any way, and a conversion frame.

It seems like IH in 7th just by mistake got popular due to cpt smash:cusser and gorgons chains.

Im not asking for much at all. A Dreadnought-character and a relic. The CT im ok with and even the strategem.

Its the Iron X for emperors sake. 5th founding successor chapters gets more love it feels like.

#23
lhavoc

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The sad thing is there were more Iron Hands on Vigilus than Ultrasmurfs. The Iron Hands get about 5 mentions in “Vigilus Ablaze” and the only battle they are listed in is a failed assault to set up the Mechanicus for the decisive attack.

The new novels set up so much for Iron Hands:

Battlefleet Gothic:
Iron Barque (Super Battleships/Battlebarges)
Datalinks (like Tau?!)

Apocalypse:
Clan Fortress (Superheavy Crawlers)

40k:
Datalinks (Clan and Squad)
Iron Fathers (Kardan Stronos model)
Helfathers (Super Terminators)

Personal:
Medusas (Artillery)
Gorgons (Heavy Transport)
Bionics (Feel No Pain) saves upgradable by Rank or Veteran status
Self-Repair (It Will Not Die) (Better than standard Imperial?)
Improved Targeting (Stabilized Weapons) (No penalty for advance and fire)

Get GW from thinking of us as a lesser, loyalist Death Guard. Think of us as halfway between Imperial Fists and White Scars. Heavily armoured yet fast & relentless in the attack.

“Death Before Dismount!”

Will someone send this to GW?

Edited by lhavoc, 01 April 2019 - 12:05 PM.






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