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Land Raiders


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#26
sfPanzer

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There's not a massive need for them to move around. They move up the table, debark 3", move then charge if necessary. Assault Terminators will move an average of 15" across the board in 1 turn! That's 25" from the Land Raider movement the turn before!

The beauty of it is you debark first so the tank can pull away if you want.

Land Raiders are just as competetive as Repulsors since the "weakness" is negligible whilst having better survivability for less guns.

 

I can't say I can confirm that from my games. I move my units around quite a bit. And if Land Raiders were just as competetive as Repulsors I'd say we'd see them as often as Repulsors, but we don't. The weakness is a real weakness and it does make a difference apparently.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#27
Captain Idaho

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Cor just think of the roasting they could do there. That's another point to think of - if your unit has debarked then the Land Raider is probably the last thing on the mind of the opponent. (Well maybe not quite last)

I do think Redeemers will be the most difficult to use due to the range. Still, those Flamestorm cannons... wow.

I like the Crusader personally. Beta Bolters is just great in that thing.
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#28
Joukernaut

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I like the crusader as well, but I play deathguard regularly and the boltershots seem rather ineffective against them.

I do love the volume of fire they put out, especially when combined with 4 assault centurions whistling.gif .


 

 


#29
Captain Idaho

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Ouch that must be horrific to face! All those dice...

Edited by Captain Idaho, 14 March 2019 - 12:00 PM.


#30
Captain Idaho

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I can't say I can confirm that from my games. I move my units around quite a bit. And if Land Raiders were just as competetive as Repulsors I'd say we'd see them as often as Repulsors, but we don't. The weakness is a real weakness and it does make a difference apparently.


Hmm. It's an interesting discussion to be had... why do people take Repulsors over Land Raiders?

I think this could go off topic but I suspect it's a case of Primaris purists. Few people taking Classic Marines will take a Repulsor and just about no Primaris lists will take a Land Raider.

Not because of idealoglies etc. I suspect it is because Classic Marines won't fit all their eggs into one basket when they can get 2 tanks for the same price or cheaper Transports/free teleports etc.

Primaris players likewise need a transport option and can't get Lascannons into the list any other way so again they fall onto Repulsors.

I feel it's not a competitive issue really.

#31
Prot

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I think it's all about how you play the Repulsor vs the Landraider.

 

Too many people on forums have advice based on thoughts, or numbers... I prefer playing the game, several times, with the options in question and coming to my own conclusion.

 

And this particular conversation is one I feel I have a very large amount of experience in-

 

Over the last 2-3 months I've played a high number of games with Ultramarines, and Black Legion almost exclusively. But by far most of these have been Ultra's.

 

So I accept this is just my opinion but without sounding harsh... I disagree with a large portion of what's been 'observed' about Landraiders vs Repulsors. I will say again it's just my opinion, and although from experience, it's also heavily meta dependent. In a nutshell:

 

- Landraider is substantially better in my games.

- I started with dual Repulors. It's an easy to make list for Primaris and it's nothing new to maximize it with Guilliman in the middle. (I haven't used them with Guilliman).

- I then tried dual Landraiders, and settled on a split of Landraider and Repulsor.

 

- They have to be played differently. The Landraider is best used to protect characters and important units. You really shouldn't move it high in the battle field until late game or to bait people (IE: Leverage a bad charge from your opponent to sling shot your CC squad into a favourable counter charge the following turn.) Otherwise they're too easy to destroy, and kiting cover is a real thing where I am. Anything short of a Castelan can be hidden from to large degree.

 

- The Repulsor really NEEDS to go forward. Too much of it's fire power demands it. It NEEDED fly because it has 24" guns, and depending on secondaries, a 24" set of las cannons and/or 30" Cawl heavy bolters (various flavours of Onslaught)

 

- The Repulsor therefore dictates a favoritism towards a medium-to-close support unit inside of it. - You take advantage of fly, and all its weapons get to participate.

 

- The Landraider conversely favours a long range passenger list. I have had immense success with Centurions in Landraiders (of any type). Some times people ask me why I bother since I don't typically move landraiders a lot until  mid game: The reason is really straight forward: I lose turn 1, then people who know my army will do -anything- in their power to annihilate my Centurions. (Yes, they are that big of a threat, but it's not a centurion thread so I'll leave it at that.)

So the goal with a Landraider is; park it, hide passengers, prevent a 'seize' roll from ruining your day, then use the 3" disembark + move to create a strong, mildly mobile base, or start going forward with assault Cents, or whatever your cargo is.) The Landraider has largely done the first half of it's job. VERY different from playing a Repulsor.

 

- The Landraider having a 2+ save is an incredible difference maker. In all of these games if I told you the amount of Las, or las equivalent type saves I've made on that 5 up save you wouldn't believe me. In the span of the last few months it has convinced me (reluctantly) that this alone makes it a better choice for me over the Repulsor. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who really likes the Primaris aesthetic.

 

- The Repulsor loadouts have been very long and varied for me. Since you should play it different it should be holding a different type of passenger. Often I sling shot Calgar out of it. And/or an entourage of support characters (prevent sniping). Sometimes these guys support the Centurions with Banners, and Apothecary, LT, etc etc. Sometimes they are meant to very aggressive... using Aggressors. I used to use Helblasters, I just don't like them enough. Centurions put them to shame in my lists. I feel like I have to overcharge them all the time, and rely on banner bonuses/coming back from the dead too much. (I might feel different if I was a Dark Angel player).

 

That's the second problem with the Repulsor.. it holds units that I don't think work as well. I'd love to put assault Cents in one for example... Aggressors (used in this manner) are horrible... I still despise Power Fists... even if they were free. I hate the -1 to hit.

 

- One of my strongest lists features one Repulsor and one Landraider. I love it when people pick on the Landraider first... it almost 100% lasts longer. Plus since it's a better backfield producer, it doesn't need fly. And it's cargo reflects that. Plus it works VERY good with certain combo's.... a long range Dread (cheap) dread with Wisdom of Ancients, placed beside a Landraider and hiding a Thunderfirec Cannon? That's a really decent combo that can also heal itself!

 

Recently to further explore Indomnitus Crusaders I've been using much more Intercessors, and they cost a lot and I'm finding it harder to include dual units like this so I've gone back to the single Landraider over the Repulsor and it just works better... 4 lascannons, 48", and Centurion protection, plus that 2+ save just is a great combo.

 

Perhaps if I could put something more.. potent in the Repulsor (sorry not going back to multi-Helblaster lists anymore.. yawn.) it would be different.

 

- Black Legion lists I've used feature a lot of stuff being extremely aggressive, so I can't really leave the Landraider at home. Most games I expect to lose the LR turn one, simply because of the playstyle change... this is a real factor in determining the 'value' of these units in your army... anyway, the Landraider holds Berzerkers loaded up with axes and a Dark Apostle. I use this combo to get heat off my Daemon Princes. The point is the Landraider's 2+ save is just huge here, and again I've had Dark Angels with 3 Damage Helblasters allowing my Landraiders to have  at least a 6+ save.... against multiple medium damage shots, that's huge over time (especially with the Thunderfire Priest or Warpsmith nearby).

 

Again, just my experiences, but right now as similar as the vehicles appear the Landraider significantly outperforms my Repulsors.


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#32
sfPanzer

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Fair enough, Prot. Outside of theoryhammer I can only speak as a Blood Angels player on the loyalist side and there I don't have Centurions but I do have the 5++ psychic power to give my Repulsor a similar save against AP-3 and better. ^^


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#33
Prot

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Fair enough, Prot. Outside of theoryhammer I can only speak as a Blood Angels player on the loyalist side and there I don't have Centurions but I do have the 5++ psychic power to give my Repulsor a similar save against AP-3 and better. ^^

 

True enough. Plus Tiggies 'hide and seek' power sure is helpful.

 

I do like the Blood Angels + Repulsor a lot better. I have to play against Blood Angels fairly frequently and it always amazes me how flexible they are.


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#34
Captain Idaho

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BA are incredibly powerful up close so I imagine heavy transports like this go a lot further.

@ Prot: I think you're essentially saying what I'm saying... the Land Raider is as competetive as a Repulsor. I've seen Repulsors doing some nasty stuff in tournaments so that means they're in a fairly good place.

Could you provide us with some feedback in perhaps another thread how your play is going, please? I'm very interested in how the Centurions are doing.
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#35
Prot

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BA are incredibly powerful up close so I imagine heavy transports like this go a lot further.

@ Prot: I think you're essentially saying what I'm saying... the Land Raider is as competetive as a Repulsor. I've seen Repulsors doing some nasty stuff in tournaments so that means they're in a fairly good place.

Could you provide us with some feedback in perhaps another thread how your play is going, please? I'm very interested in how the Centurions are doing.

 

Sure. I'm just more or less illustrating that in all my testing/games that they are different enough to be treated differently.

 

The most competitive build I've personally seen with dual Repulsors has Guilliman in it .So I take that with a grain of salt because you can put Guilliman beside a squad armed with the Emperor's best potato peelers, and you're still gonna kill something.

 

The split I've been using has been good to me but I think one of the big differences is the payload. I just don't value the Primaris stuff enough to convince me (for the time being) on the Repulsor.

 

But I still use, and test both. I have a game tonight with Calgar and his Victrix. The only time I leave the Landraider out is if I'm using the Centurions. If we could deep strike them like Oblits it would be different. For the time being they are just to easily killed and many of my opponents know to go straight for them now.

 

For the time being the Repulsor is back in for my playtesting of the new Vanguard marines.


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#36
Lemondish

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Middle of the board is middle of the board. Land Raiders can operate perfectly well in that location.

I beg to differ.

We're clearly playing in entirely different metas. The middle of the board is a bad place for a tank that expensive given how easy it would be to silence it without ever firing a shot.

Ultimately the point I was making is that they aren't comparable in purpose, so it makes little sense to compare them for the same job.

Edited by Lemondish, 14 March 2019 - 11:18 PM.

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#37
Joukernaut

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I tried the landraider crusader filled with centurions yesterday in a match against deathguard and have mixed feelings about it.

My plan was to see what bolter shots combined with the storm of fire warlord trait.

I was unfortunate enough to loose two ironclad dreadnoughts and an Armiger in the first turn.

So most of my pressure units and two of my hurricanes bolters were gone straight away.

The survivability of the landraider is great. He took a lot of shots and survived the entire battle.

Unfortunately I had to charge him in to deny my opponent a lot of shooting, so I didn't really get to see its shooting prowess.

A lot of bolter shots with storm of fire do seem be potent to remove even plague marines from the field.

I held the centurions inside the raider for a very long time to maximise their potential.

When the time was right......they......wiffed horribly. nothing but ones and two's on shooting and in combat.

They didn't even manage to take out one lousy hellbrute with 6 melta shots and seven close combat attacks.

I do feel the combo is very potent so I'm looking to try it a couple more times.

Maybe they need my captain/chaptermaster and a lieutenant to babysit them


 

 


#38
Captain Idaho

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Cor a very unlucky game. Losing 3 vehicles in the 1st turn like that... ouch. What were you up against?

I'd like to see more games with it. See how that particular combination works.

A Captain in the midst of the Land Raider and Centurions helps a lot. He can provide his bonus to the Land Raider as needed but more crucially is another tough nut to crack in close combat.

Edited by Captain Idaho, 17 March 2019 - 05:50 PM.


#39
Joukernaut

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He was running a version of his latest tournament list, which took him to second place in our FLGS, ending behind me msn-wink.gif (I took the win with grey knights) .

It was a deathguard battalion with 3 units of 10 plague marines loaded with plasma, 7 terminators, 3 plague burst crawlers, 2 hell brutes, a drone, a demon prince and a plague caster.

he slowly walks up, puts miasma on a unit of marines, cloud of flies on another, all within the crawlers cover bubble then shoots anti tank first with crawlers and brutes.

This particular match his dice were burning hot and mine were stone cold. worst was a supersmite on the armiger doing 5 wounds. Then he hit and wounded with nearly all shots of his crawlers brutes and plasma.

We were doing a narrative battle this time, the Ambush one. Normally I would have LOS'd more of his units, but still, he was very, very lucky.

The game was still very tight until the very last turn.

We're in a small campaign atm and probably play again next week.


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