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Veterans and razorbacks


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#26
Black Orange

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You got it Vel !


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#27
IronDreddKnight

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Ok back on subject :)

Twin las razorbacks along with twin las ven dreads would sufficient anti T8?

Is it a good idea to design a veteran squad to also takle T8 or leave them with SB? If yes what would that look like?

#28
Mobius0288

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I have brought both before and when I would bring the Las-back, I typically stuck in the back like a Predator and just shot stuff. You can move it I preferred the accuracy. To maximize the efficiency of "To Hit," I'd probably keep any camping character near the Las-back and put the dreadnaught on a different flank. It can force the opponent to commit deep strikes reinforcements to one side or the other.

 

I used to run a Ven Dread (Lascannon/missile), Razorback (Lascannon, maybe hunter killer missile) and a stalker/missile vet squad as my anti-tank. Either a watch master or captain would roll with the stalker squad and razorback, deployed and in position (cover when able) during deployment. The Ven Dread really is good enough to be by itself. Give him a close combat weapon instead of a missile if you want him to be completely self-sufficient.

 

I switched to a sprinkling of plasma recently due to any necron engagements with their quantum shielding.


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#29
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I still prefer the Ven Dread loadouts. Just so much better use of the codex in my opinion. Razorbacks for las are a tough sell for me.


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#30
Mr4Minutes

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I’m in agreement with Prot. The twin las Ven Dred has the better BS and benefits from our chapter tactic. Personally I’ve been running 2 with a stalker squad and a captain with the relic SS. If you can get them in cover they become 2+/5++/6+++.

Without FW for the assault cannon, I like the twin HB Razorback. Cheaper, and can be sent into the enemy with less of a concern of losing you AT.

But the Assback is pretty good I think. Turn one advance and pop smoke. Turn two unload the vets and shoot stuff.
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#31
vigitant

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The Chaplain VenDread is still pretty dang good.  for about 40pts more than a TLC/ML vendread you get a 5++, character rule, 9 wounds, and a neat little melee buff.

No missile launcher, but he hits like a truck in melee, and its worth moving him behind some screen popping off TLC shots on a 3+


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#32
IronDreddKnight

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Ven dreads seem like the favourite choice to tackle T8 targets. I do have a chaplain dread with TLC + fist and a ven dread with TLC + fist.
Would four lascannons shots enough?
Is this a suitable time to bring in a las razorback? Or do I avoid for a different (non dread) option

Edited by IronDreddKnight, 12 January 2019 - 05:06 PM.


#33
spacewatch

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Before chapter approved 2018, I would say take a Ven Dread and supplement with a razorback (lascannon) as necessary. Now I would just say take a Ven Dread and supplement with either hellblasters or some missile vets. This is both a chapter approved and experience decision. Hellblasters are good because they can be stacked with an intercessor unit and they do better against Necron quantum shield vehicles. For razorbacks I would prioritize twin assault cannons, then maybe a twin heavy bolter. Some argue the twin heavy bolter is a waste of time but if your just trying to rush them down the field without an HQ to support, then that's probably the best (cheapest) choice to still get some anti-infantry pot shots.

 

...

 

I like Twin-HB Raz too but things change... I mean Beta Bolter rule makes 2xSB Rhino as good as Twin-HB Razorback (without SB), when moving and shooting Guardsmen/Orc Boyz/similar. That's 4 extra seats and Self-Repair rule 13 pts cheaper. How do you see this?


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#34
Mobius0288

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Before chapter approved 2018, I would say take a Ven Dread and supplement with a razorback (lascannon) as necessary. Now I would just say take a Ven Dread and supplement with either hellblasters or some missile vets. This is both a chapter approved and experience decision. Hellblasters are good because they can be stacked with an intercessor unit and they do better against Necron quantum shield vehicles. For razorbacks I would prioritize twin assault cannons, then maybe a twin heavy bolter. Some argue the twin heavy bolter is a waste of time but if your just trying to rush them down the field without an HQ to support, then that's probably the best (cheapest) choice to still get some anti-infantry pot shots.

 

...

 

I like Twin-HB Raz too but things change... I mean Beta Bolter rule makes 2xSB Rhino as good as Twin-HB Razorback (without SB), when moving and shooting Guardsmen/Orc Boyz/similar. That's 4 extra seats and Self-Repair rule 13 pts cheaper. How do you see this?

 

I agree completely. I haven't done much consideration with the new bolter rule on vehicles. It definitely bring the rhino up to par with a HB razorback. And you can still pop smoke and not feel bad about getting shots off. I would mismatch razorbacks and rhinos because that's what I had but I would definitely just rock 2 rhinos instead of a HB razroback. I'm still on the fence about the twin assault cannon razorback. I've been focusing more on bikes lately since they're fast, cheaper and affected by the bolter rules (SB or combi-melta Sgt).

 

And plus, everyone ignores my rhinos once I disembark... so I just charge them into random enemies. Please, let's see your guardsmen overwatch and melee my rhino. I'll just lock up your squad the rest of the game while I take out the important stuff.

 

Don't want to stray too far off topic but the bolter rule also gives us more consideration for the blackstar or landraider as well (hurricane bolters specifically).

 

 

Ven dreads seem like the favourite choice to tackle T8 targets. I do have a chaplain dread with TLC + fist and a ven dread with TLC + fist.
Would four lascannons shots enough?
Is this a suitable time to bring in a las razorback? Or do I avoid for a different (non dread) option

If those 4 lascannons are your only anti-armor choices (meaning no plasma, meltas, missiles, smash captains, etc.), I would say that's the minimum amount of anti-vehicle in a 1500-ish point type of game. In 2000, ya you're gonna need a bit more. It's different for everyone but I look for 25-33% of my list doing anti-tank things. If you go up a knight list, it will definitely not be enough.

 

You can try for things that double into killing non-vehicles such as plasma and missiles. Melee is another option but it does get expensive quick.

 

At this point in the meta, I would recommend staying away from a las razorback and stick to a couple of ven dreads. Mortis dreads are ideal, as well as a few other forgeworld options like the Sicarian Venator or Sicarian Battle Tank. You do have landraiders as an option as well. Taking twin-las over single lascannons is always better if your bring a lot of them anyway.


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#35
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Spacewatch, that’s a really strong case for the rhino. It’s now making me reconsider it. Taking 2 min vet squads.

Mobius, I’ve recently invested in two more dreadnoughts. Would 2-3 ven dreads, a chaplain dread (melee + H.flamers) smash captain + X amount of frag cannons be enough anti tank options? Also mortal wound strats.
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#36
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Spacewatch, that’s a really strong case for the rhino. It’s now making me reconsider it. Taking 2 min vet squads.

...

 

Yep, basically there's nothing new except better 24" rapid fire range but it makes Rhino comparable to HB Raz when shooting light infantry. I think transporting two (rather cheap) MSU squads with Rhino is an idea worth trying. 
 
Hmm... this goes a bit off-topic now (sorry) but as Mobius already mentioned Corvus gets same boost and anti-infantry dakka Corvus (TAC, rockets, HB, auspex) especially looks rather interesting now (why, just see how it compares to pre bolter rule Corvus having PotMS).

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#37
Qui-Gon

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I do not see that the Corvus has really gained much in the way of improved anti infantry firepower, when it only gained a net 6 bolter shots. Rhinos get more and they're 1/3 the cost of the corvus.


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#38
Mobius0288

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Mobius, I’ve recently invested in two more dreadnoughts. Would 2-3 ven dreads, a chaplain dread (melee + H.flamers) smash captain + X amount of frag cannons be enough anti tank options? Also mortal wound strats.


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#39
Chris521

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While the change hasn't done much to increase the chances of taking the Corvus, it does make the hurricane bolter a no brainer if you do.

 

I have 4 razorbacks which are basically my Frag cannon delivery service.  I went with the heavy bolter version for a cheap transport that can put out some fire power.  After the bolter change, I think I'm going  to switch to rhinos with storm bolters.  I think the cost, capacity, and wound regen outweigh the small difference in firepower.



#40
Black Orange

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I can’t get behind the Corvus there are too many armies that shoot it down first turn.

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#41
spacewatch

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I can’t get behind the Corvus there are too many armies that shoot it down first turn.

 

All I meant was to picture the difference in efficiency (using PotMS as a reference) this buff gave to dakka Corvus. Personally I think this buff made dakka Corvus interesting choice in some cases. But I agree with you that in broader perspective this buff did not make Corvus good enough as a gunship.



#42
Qui-Gon

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In the hypothetical world where the Corvus actually got PotMS, yes, I can say that the Corvus just became better. But it doesn't, sadly.


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#43
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I would prefer it if they gave us the option of using it as a Rhino(Full Transport Capacity but no PotMS) or a Razorback(Reduced or even no capacity but giving us a proper Gunship).


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#44
Syward

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What about Drop Pods and Veterans now? Have the thoughts changed on those now they they get 4 SB shots too? I know we have to wait until turn # 2, but compared to using a Rhino/Razorback, it'd probably be turn 2 by the time you got them where you want them anyway, and their safety would be guaranteed until the drop and they're cheaper than the Rhino plus saving a CP or 2.

 

I've been debating between Rhino/Razorback and Drop Pods for either 2 MSU or 1 10man KT.


Edited by Syward, 30 January 2019 - 05:31 PM.


#45
Black Orange

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Why spend points when you can use the strat ?

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#46
Syward

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Why spend points when you can use the strat ?

 

Well, if you're going to spend the points on Rhino/Razorback anyway, why not use a DP?



#47
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@Syward

I do not recommend using DP, but if you like the idea and DP fits your plan and you want to save points then why not? Just be careful where you deploy it since it has no attacks and cannot move. Enemy may use this to be safe from your shooting.


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#48
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@Syward

I do not recommend using DP, but if you like the idea and DP fits your plan and you want to save points then why not? Just be careful where you deploy it since it has no attacks and cannot move. Enemy may use this to be safe from your shooting.

 

Is that generally the reason a Rhino/Razorback would be taken for Veterans in favor of the DP the lack of mobility after deployment? Or am I missing something else? Seems like in terms of getting a unit from Point A to Point B, if you want to get more than 36" down the board by turn 2 the DP is the way to go unless you have enough free CP for the stratagem or aren't already using the stratagem on 3 other units.

 

Not trying to argue BTW, I'm genuinely asking to understand. I keep seeing players talk about it's not recommended to use a DP over a Rhino/Razorback for a transport option, never see why. I understand not utilizing the Corvus (as cool as the model/unit it is) it just costs too much. I always thought that the choice against the DP in favor of the RB was due to the weapons, but reading through the discussion, seems like a Rhino w/2x SB is just as favorable as the Razorback?

 

(I'm fairly new to playing, only started in the middle of last year)



#49
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@Syward

I do not recommend using DP, but if you like the idea and DP fits your plan and you want to save points then why not? Just be careful where you deploy it since it has no attacks and cannot move. Enemy may use this to be safe from your shooting.

 

Is that generally the reason a Rhino/Razorback would be taken for Veterans in favor of the DP the lack of mobility after deployment? Or am I missing something else? Seems like in terms of getting a unit from Point A to Point B, if you want to get more than 36" down the board by turn 2 the DP is the way to go unless you have enough free CP for the stratagem or aren't already using the stratagem on 3 other units.

...

 

Well, I'm not veteran player either but I'll try to do my best to explain (I really hope that Brothers here who have played 40k way longer than me help by commenting/correcting this.)

 
Earlier (7th ed.) DP was cheap, you could load it full Frag Cannons and do alphastrike. Now you can't use FC's flamer profile after deepsrike because of rules and turn 1 alphastrike is gone. Yes DP can go anywhere but does it in practice? People use cheap screens and DP is actually quite big model when doors are opened. But I think the maiin reason is that now we have strategems and teleportarium strategem does DP's job better and quite a lot cheaper. We are expensive army and we don't like to pay for something we can do for free.
 
So is not just the lack of movability. I mentioned it because if you accidently put your DP too close to objective and enemy wipes your squad then you have to fight that objective back. And we don't like to fight, we like to shoot.

 

...

 

Not trying to argue BTW, I'm genuinely asking to understand. I keep seeing players talk about it's not recommended to use a DP over a Rhino/Razorback for a transport option, never see why. I understand not utilizing the Corvus (as cool as the model/unit it is) it just costs too much. I always thought that the choice against the DP in favor of the RB was due to the weapons, but reading through the discussion, seems like a Rhino w/2x SB is just as favorable as the Razorback?

 

(I'm fairly new to playing, only started in the middle of last year)

 

 

Asking questions is good way to learn and understand. Ask, argue, challenge opinions, test your ideas, try different units and strategies in test games, take sometimes non-optimal units and try to figure out how to make best use of them, talk to your opponents after game what worked and what you should improve and soon you will see how your units complement each other and how much your units can damage enemy units, where your units need to be and when, and so on. I've played this game couple of years and I'm still asking questions and I'm still trying to understand. So, just keep asking, Brother!
 

 

Rhino w/2x SB is comparable to Razorback w/twinHB when your tactics is to move as fast as you can and at the same time shoot light infantry. In this specific (and rather common) case Rhino is comparable to Raz. Need more firepower - take TAC-Razorback. Don't plan to move - take HB or even TwinLas-Razorback. It's all about your tactics and roles you're giving to your units.

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#50
Black Orange

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You can’t even begin to compare a drop pod to a rhino or razorback. On top of that the drop pod is doing nothing for you.
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