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Calgar, Phil Kelly, and Primaris: The first of the 3rd Gen.


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This is something I wanted to bring up but have hesitated because of the heated debates it often gets bogged down in. So I wanted to share this info, and enjoy conversation about the future without so much negativity and I will shut the thread down if it heads into that sort of grey cloud of negativity....

 

WARNING: The conversation that follows undoubtedly contains minor spoiler information regarding the events surrounding Vigilus, Dark Imperium / Imperium Nihilus, the Cicatrix Maledictum, and the time frame following the Indomitus Crusade specifically.

 

That said I found some very interesting information surrounding conversation about Vigilus, and of course Primaris. The nuggets of info come from the latest Vox Cast Podcast, which is also published on youtube. If you are unaware of the content, you can check it out here:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I, personally, am a big fan of Calgar and I wanted to understand the motivations here and only some of this information is actually held within the pages of the Vigilus Campaign book (Part 1.)

 

What motivated Calgar to do it?

 

At first it seems obvious he may be experiencing a bit of inferiority complex. We can draw that from the novels surrounding the events of Dark Imperium. There are scenes where Calgar shows moments of feeling almost a sense of obsolescence. His own interaction with Primaris marines during that conflict show a level of tension and uncertainty.

 

The Primarch's decree: Phil Kelly refers to this in broader terms during the interview stating there is a need here for the Primaris as the Imperium is on the 'precipice', but these new comers are not entirely welcomed. Firstly the original Primaris are thousands of years old. They come from a different era, they speak different, they act different. Culturally they are a different breed. Secondly there's the trust issue. Phil states not all Chapters have been as welcoming of Guilliman's ideas as the Ultramarines have. He uses Dark Angels as an example of this. (shocker, I know!)

 

I am your Cousin but we don't get along: There are some interesting examples of the challenges between the new and the old marines establishing trust in the sequel to Dark Imperium in the pages of Plague Wars. I recall a few scenes where veteran marines call into question the questionable skill level of the Primaris marines. At one point a veteran mentions several Primaris dying in basic fire fights due to lack of experience. The Primaris on hand establish they do not share that shortcoming but the friction is there.

 

At one point Guilliman gives command of an important operation to a Primaris marine. In my view this is to establish that the Primaris are -worthy- of the role, and not superior to the older marines. But do even the Ultramarines see it this way?

 

On the Primaris side of it there is a character in that novel who was a Grey Shield and now sent to the Nova Marines and he is experiencing a disconnect from his new chapter. So the challenges are from both sides of the fence.

 

Bridging the gap: So it's established that Calgar felt sidelined perhaps, even if it was a ridiculous thought.... this is the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines after all, but it shows a human side. Beyond that we see there is obvious divide is the Astartes themselves.

 

And then there's something else that's mentioned in the Phil Kelly interview I thought that was interesting; the need for Calgar to bond with his Primarch is also a motivating factor. As we know the conversion of marine to Primaris marine is life threatening. (* In the interview Phil throws out "60%" as a ball park number for survival rate of the process.)

 

It would be a bonding moment between Calgar, his geneseed father, and the Primaris to go through this process. In the first case, Calgar would die in the process of becoming a Primaris (Vigilus part 1), and that would be a shared experience with Guilliman who also died in the process of being renewed by Eldar trickery and Cawl's techno-magic.

 

In the second case, the resurrection of Calgar as a Primaris would be the marriage of the old and the new, blurring the line, and creating a new breed of warrior. Phil Kelly referred this to the '3rd' Generation of Primaris.

 

Primarily speaking: A few interesting tid bits came out of the conversation. Some of it I found interesting because we've debated it here on the BnC. As we know Cawl was set with the task of creating new war machines and Primaris. The Primaris were continually created in Guilliman's absence to the tune of thousands, and thousands of marines held in stasis on Mars. He never stopped making them.... why? Cawl was acting like any diligent Mechanicus discipline would. He kept building them because no one told him to stop.... no one filled out that correct form and had it processed.  Welcome to the age of bureaucracy. Sometimes it works in a back handed sort of way.

 

In the interview they spoke of creating the risk associated with the change. There's a serious chance of death, and Calgar died, but pulled through in the end. They didn't want it to be a simple procedure considering the history of becoming a marine, and the risks associated with attempting the conversion in adulthood.

 

I think the future's going to be very interesting. The Vigilus campaign itself sees the Imperiun trying to plant their back foot. They're on the edge, and Abaddon is pushing hard. It becomes apparent during this interview that Phil saw the creation and use of Primaris as essential for the continued existence of the Imperium. I found the conversation entertaining and I particularly enjoyed the added understanding of why Calgar became the first of the 3rd Gen Primaris.

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I'll need to listen to this podcast in order to fully respond to this, but I'm confused by the term '3rd Generation'.

I've read A-D-B's Spears of the Emperor, and this also covers the transition between regular Astartes (dubbed 1st Generation) and the Primaries (the 2nd Generation) as the 'Calgarian Rites' due to this taking place after the Chapter Master's transition to Primaris. In fact this is attempted in the novel, and details the massive undertaking this process is. However this feels more like an 'upgrade' from first to second Generations, rather than a separate third Generation - as this would indicate that those from the first generation who underwent the transformation to Primaris were superior to Primaris in some way. It would be closer to a Gen 1.5, a Gen 1 with additional parts to make them compatible with Gen 2.

 

Ultimately this is somewhat irrelevant as the transition from 1st Gen to 2nd Gen is a stop-gap solution, as I can't imagine chapters still creating 1st Gen Astartes when they can create 2nd Gen straight away. For new recruits into the chapter, and receiving their gene seed, they would still get the same level of training and indoctrination (for lack of a better word) in how the chapter operates regardless of their generation. So as the number of newly created 1st Gen Astartes reduces to zero, and the number of remaining 1st Gen also reduce to zero (either through attrition or transition to Gen 1.5) then all that would be left is the 2nd Gen Primaris that we know now. 

 

And without trying to get this thread de-railed, this is why I didn't like Phil Kelly's take on Dark Angel Primaris in War of Secrets. With the ending that was written, it showed that there wasn't thought given to how the intake of chapters would change with the introduction of the Primaris (at least, in my opinion)  especially for those chapters who would be less accepting of imposed changes. The use of the Primaris Lieutenant in Vigilus does correct that somewhat, and feels more in line with what the Dark Angels would be using Primaris for. 

 

Whilst I can see why Calgar has undergone the change (and Spears of the Emperor makes it a nobler statement, Calgar going first as not wanting to order others to do what he hasn't already done), I still feel for Agemman - the first captain. Here was someone who was the undeniably the next-in-line to be Chapter Master, and then was started to be passed over in favour of Sicarius. Now with the Primarch of the XIIIth back, where does the first captain go? That's the story I want to hear about.

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I'm just listening to the interview now so haven't got a comment.

 

What I am looking for, which I won't derail the thread with, is something that appeals to me - recognition that validates my preference to Classic Marines from GW. I'm not optimistic and personally feel the whole thread with Calgar was justification to port characters into Primaris rather than for true literary reasons.

 

Now Calgar's bridged the gap does that mean everyone is happy with Primaris? All misgivings gone now? What happened to the potential civil war? Conflict?

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Being an "old" marine fan myself, I don't have much hope for them surviving. I voted with my wallet and the only kit I bought in 2018 was the Space Marine Heroes collection to let GW know classic marines are still relevant to some, for what it's worth. That said, I'm not opposed to Primaris: I like the models and I don't mind the fluff which is being improved over time via additions and mild retcons, just like AoS fluff.

 

While I'm not particularly fond of GW's direction with the marine army, I do appreciate VoxCast and the insight it provides. Previous episodes were very interesting as well. It's a good thing to listen to while painting.

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Interesting discussion. It's good to hear that GW recognises folk are still using their old Marines hence why they haven't been phased out yet, though it is notable they expressed it as a binary choice - you can add new models as you want or not, referring to Primaris as the new models.

 

It's a shame because I want new models to be excited about as this keeps the hobby alive and it just won't happen with my Marines now.

 

I won't discuss it further so the floor has been conceded. :)

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I'll need to listen to this podcast in order to fully respond to this, but I'm confused by the term '3rd Generation'.

I've read A-D-B's Spears of the Emperor, and this also covers the transition between regular Astartes (dubbed 1st Generation) and the Primaries (the 2nd Generation) as the 'Calgarian Rites' due to this taking place after the Chapter Master's transition to Primaris. In fact this is attempted in the novel, and details the massive undertaking this process is. However this feels more like an 'upgrade' from first to second Generations, rather than a separate third Generation - as this would indicate that those from the first generation who underwent the transformation to Primaris were superior to Primaris in some way. It would be closer to a Gen 1.5, a Gen 1 with additional parts to make them compatible with Gen 2.

 

Ultimately this is somewhat irrelevant as the transition from 1st Gen to 2nd Gen is a stop-gap solution, as I can't imagine chapters still creating 1st Gen Astartes when they can create 2nd Gen straight away.

It’s already been established that they do though, and both types, traditional and primaris, are being created in universe at the current time. Classic marines are still being created to still use ‘their more readily available equipment and combat doctrines’.

 

The 3 types of Primaris he is referring to aren’t generational as in the each one is a further development, rather they are produced from different sources. Type 1 is Primaris Marines largely from Terra and Mars recruited and put in stasis over 10k years. Type 2 is Primaris Marines produced by chapters from their normal recruitment stock. Type 3 is Primaris produced by converting traditional marines.

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I'll need to listen to this podcast in order to fully respond to this, but I'm confused by the term '3rd Generation'.

I've read A-D-B's Spears of the Emperor, and this also covers the transition between regular Astartes (dubbed 1st Generation) and the Primaries (the 2nd Generation) as the 'Calgarian Rites' due to this taking place after the Chapter Master's transition to Primaris. In fact this is attempted in the novel, and details the massive undertaking this process is. However this feels more like an 'upgrade' from first to second Generations, rather than a separate third Generation - as this would indicate that those from the first generation who underwent the transformation to Primaris were superior to Primaris in some way. It would be closer to a Gen 1.5, a Gen 1 with additional parts to make them compatible with Gen 2. .

The "three generations of primaris" are:

-old primaris Cawl had been creating for 10.000 years. Some stemming back from before the heresy

-new primaris, made after the introduction of primaris, made by chapters themselves

-old Marines 'doing a Calgar' to be enhanced into primaris

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Jes Goodwin referred to primaris as the “marine redesign” in Vox Cast #1. I’m not sure if that was a slip of the tongue or nothing should be put into his choice of words. To me, it reinforces the fact that primaris is simply a marine range update, with lore being pushed into the gap behind it to ease the transition.

 

I think Calgar is the chapter master of the preeminent marketing chapter, and was given a primaris model for ‘rule of cool’ reasons. The fluff they came up with works well enough to explain it away.

 

The sooner the rest of the chapters get their primaris heroes, new or old, the better I say.

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Jes Goodwin referred to primaris as the “marine redesign” in Vox Cast #1. I’m not sure if that was a slip of the tongue or nothing should be put into his choice of words. To me, it reinforces the fact that primaris is simply a marine range update, with lore being pushed into the gap behind it to ease the transition.

 

Goodwin also talked about the design for Primaris being done quite some years ago. 15 iirc. So it makes sense if it started out as a simple re-design but then it developed to what we have today.

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Doesn’t Phil Kelly also say something about how the models are produced first, then the background team go off and invent the story for them (this being how primaris Calgar came about)?

 

Which fits with the suggestion that the primaris design came first, followed by the fluff justification.

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Yeah but that's old news. The design team comes up with an idea and if they get the go they make the model, and once that's done the rules team gets the model and has to think of fitting rules for it and then the background gets written. Sometimes the design team gets a few things said so they aren't completely free in what they are doing but not all the time.
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Jes Goodwin referred to primaris as the “marine redesign” in Vox Cast #1. I’m not sure if that was a slip of the tongue or nothing should be put into his choice of words. To me, it reinforces the fact that primaris is simply a marine range update, with lore being pushed into the gap behind it to ease the transition.

Goodwin also talked about the design for Primaris being done quite some years ago. 15 iirc. So it makes sense if it started out as a simple re-design but then it developed to what we have today.

Jes said the Design Team is !in some cases! working -5- years ahead.

 

Also something to consider regarding the point of "In most cases, the Model is made first, then the rules and fluff" is, that by now they 'only' (=not saying it isn't much work) need to make a 3D render of a model, to make it presentable or even 3d-printable - so they can make changes and refine the model, with rules and fluff ideas in mind.

 

 

Generally I like that GW is fleshing out the Primaris Lore with this and I hope this will be further explored in other Campaign Books, future codices and Black Library works.

Can the "Ye Olde" 1st Gen Primaris bring back a bit of Great Crusade/HH Era 'flavour'/glory to their respective parent chapters?

How do fresh 2nd Generation Primaris feel among hundreds of years old Veteran 'Regular' Astartes and 1st Gen Primaris, who had 10.000 years of psycho indoctrination, VR-Training, etc.?

How does a 3rd Generation primaris fewl, now that he has stepped out of the Rubicon Primaris? Rejuvenated? Young again? How ridiculous must it feel that this procedure allowed you to surpass your already superhuman skills you have honed over hundreds of years of service? ...how devastating must it feel when you survived, due to 'luck', but your squadmate didn't?

Can Marines that go through the Rubicon Primaris, but "die" to the procedure be put into a Dreadnought nonetheless?

Can the procedure fail, without killing the Marine, crippling him instead (just like regular Astartes aspirants)?

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Jes Goodwin referred to primaris as the “marine redesign” in Vox Cast #1. I’m not sure if that was a slip of the tongue or nothing should be put into his choice of words. To me, it reinforces the fact that primaris is simply a marine range update, with lore being pushed into the gap behind it to ease the transition.

Goodwin also talked about the design for Primaris being done quite some years ago. 15 iirc. So it makes sense if it started out as a simple re-design but then it developed to what we have today.

Jes said the Design Team is !in some cases! working -5- years ahead.

 

 

 

Yeah I know that. Wasn't referring to that quote.

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Generally I like that GW is fleshing out the Primaris Lore with this and I hope this will be further explored in other Campaign Books, future codices and Black Library works.

Can the "Ye Olde" 1st Gen Primaris bring back a bit of Great Crusade/HH Era 'flavour'/glory to their respective parent chapters?

How do fresh 2nd Generation Primaris feel among hundreds of years old Veteran 'Regular' Astartes and 1st Gen Primaris, who had 10.000 years of psycho indoctrination, VR-Training, etc.?

How does a 3rd Generation primaris fewl, now that he has stepped out of the Rubicon Primaris? Rejuvenated? Young again? How ridiculous must it feel that this procedure allowed you to surpass your already superhuman skills you have honed over hundreds of years of service? ...how devastating must it feel when you survived, due to 'luck', but your squadmate didn't?

Can Marines that go through the Rubicon Primaris, but "die" to the procedure be put into a Dreadnought nonetheless?

Can the procedure fail, without killing the Marine, crippling him instead (just like regular Astartes aspirants)?

 

2nd generation: probably not much different than other freshly made Marines. Especially since there already are Marines that are quite a bit taller and potentially stronger than their brothers. They vary in height almost as much as regular humans.

3rd generation: Good question about how they feel tho I'd say surviving due luck while your squadmate doesn't is probably about the same feeling they had the first time they became Marines. Potentially less intense considering they already are battle hardened Marines instead of children.

Dreadnought: Probably not. Dead Marines don't get stuffed in Dreadnoughts. Almost dead Marines get stuffed in Dreadnoughts. When they die they die.

Crippling: Good question, we'll hopefully see it answered in a novel eventually.

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Dreadnought: Probably not. Dead Marines don't get stuffed in Dreadnoughts. Almost dead Marines get stuffed in Dreadnoughts. When they die they die.

Crippling: Good question, we'll hopefully see it answered in a novel eventually.

Well... Calgar kinda DID actually die. And still pulled through. Also: Cawl is Cawl. Wouldn't put it past him (+ his subordinates) finding a way to put those into Sarcophagii, even if they burn out quicker than "properly" interred Marines.

 

Good point regarding them being battle hardened and already knowing the feeling of loss like the back of their hand. Still, in a narrative sense, this could make one or the other "survivor" extra zealous or driven to excel even more (as a means to cope with/compensate the fact your squadmate didn't make it)

 

Of course, this should be used sparingly and with good measure - and at best in a good author's hands ;D

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Dreadnought: Probably not. Dead Marines don't get stuffed in Dreadnoughts. Almost dead Marines get stuffed in Dreadnoughts. When they die they die.

Crippling: Good question, we'll hopefully see it answered in a novel eventually.

Well... Calgar kinda DID actually die. And still pulled through. Also: Cawl is Cawl. Wouldn't put it past him (+ his subordinates) finding a way to put those into Sarcophagii, even if they burn out quicker than "properly" interred Marines.

 

 

Yes dieing is part of the process of becoming a Primaris when you already are a Marine. However when Marines die by other means they are actually dead dead and dead bodies can't operate Dreadnoughts. There's nothing that could burn out because it's already empty.

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Dreadnought: Probably not. Dead Marines don't get stuffed in Dreadnoughts. Almost dead Marines get stuffed in Dreadnoughts. When they die they die.

Crippling: Good question, we'll hopefully see it answered in a novel eventually.

Well... Calgar kinda DID actually die. And still pulled through. Also: Cawl is Cawl. Wouldn't put it past him (+ his subordinates) finding a way to put those into Sarcophagii, even if they burn out quicker than "properly" interred Marines.

Yes dieing is part of the process of becoming a Primaris when you already are a Marine. However when Marines die by other means they are actually dead dead and dead bodies can't operate Dreadnoughts. There's nothing that could burn out because it's already empty.

Sorry, I think I misphrased that:

I meant that SOME of those Astartes becoming 3rd Gen Primaris, but failing, maybe could be salvaged as Dreadnought 'Pilots'.

Basically they would normally be written of as failures, but -for example- the Belisarian Furnace kicks in (or is externally triggered to do so) and "revives" the Marine. Tho he can't become a Primaris, he can still be prepared for Interment into a Sarcophagus.

 

That way in one of the next books, whenever Cawl reports to Guilliman about this, he can go:

"Rubicon Primaris procedure has been roughly 43,67% successful among all gene-lines.

BUT of the 56,33% of failures, only 96,03% died a true ...honorable... death.

3,97% [[*cough* Thanks to my horrfifically good work *cough*]] were stabilized and interred into Dreadnoughts -or await their future interrment, waiting in their Saarcophagii- to continue their service to the Imperium.

Praise be to the Omnissiah!"

...and Guilliman will be shocked on one hand, but thankful on the other.

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How does a 3rd Generation primaris fewl, now that he has stepped out of the Rubicon Primaris? Rejuvenated? Young again? How ridiculous must it feel that this procedure allowed you to surpass your already superhuman skills you have honed over hundreds of years of service? ...how devastating must it feel when you survived, due to 'luck', but your squadmate didn't?

Can Marines that go through the Rubicon Primaris, but "die" to the procedure be put into a Dreadnought nonetheless?

Can the procedure fail, without killing the Marine, crippling him instead (just like regular Astartes aspirants)?

 

 

Spears of the Emperor by A-D-B does detail the process for the Rubicon Primaris (or the 'Calgarian Rites' as it was named in the novel), and how the marine adapts at the end of the transformation. Some of it has to be taken with a bit of care due to the nature of the subject entering the process (he wasn't in the best of shape to begin with, and had been brutally beaten by some traitor Astartes) but if memory recalls it took him around a month of daily exercises and training to become at ease with his new size and strength. He essentially had to re-learn a lot of basic actions for his new stature, and even after a lot of drilling he was finding that his aim was slightly off where it wasn't before. 

As for the process failing mid-way, I don't think there's a way it can be stopped part of the way through without leaving the patient dead. If you go in then you either come out the other end a Primaris or you're toast. 

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I was intrigued by the concept that an Astartes has to literally die and then, if he's lucky, will revive as a Primaris. I wonder if it is their newly installed Belisarian Furnace implant activating that revives them? The unlucky 30% who don't survive could be those whose implant failed. Just a theory...
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Phil Kelly got it the wrong way around in the voxcast. It says in the vigilus book the chance of failure is estimated to be 61.6%, not vice versa.

Thought the figures didn't ring true and DI confirms. The theory still fits though as the reason for the revival of the lucky 28.4% ;-)

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Phil Kelly got it the wrong way around in the voxcast. It says in the vigilus book the chance of failure is estimated to be 61.6%, not vice versa.

Thought the figures didn't ring true and DI confirms. The theory still fits though as the reason for the revival of the lucky 28.4% ;-)

 

 

Thanks for that clarification..... I listened to the Phil Kelly interview but haven't read Vigilus yet. So, 28.4% survival rate doesn't bode well for a wholesale chapter transformation to Primaris. I suppose depending on the personality of the Chapter, some would actually do just that, consequences be damned. Other more pragmatic chapters would take a more cautious approach. Poor Brother Lunkhead.....

 

    'The Chapter Master looks down at the petition before him while the veteran Ultramarine stands before him, expectantly.

 

    Marnius Calgar sighs and shakes his head, "I'm sorry Brother Lunkhead. Cool Mk X armour and a nifty new

    bolt rifle is not justification enough for me to risk your life on the operating table. Request denied!"' 

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