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Dealing with hordes

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#1
dbecer01

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What do you guys think is the best way to deal with hordes in 1k sons?

I was thinking Razorbacks with autocannons, or maybe some dreadnought support. I'm relatively new, and still collecting my 1k sons/Tzeentch Daemons.

#2
WarriorFish

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Must be pretty new if you think Thousand Sons have Razorbacks so I assume you mean something else? msn-wink.gif Hordes are strong currently, and a bit of effort is required from elite armies to handle them in number. At the very basic level Rubrics can do this neatly as even a horde unit in cover will be getting a 6+ save at best, and of course the warp flamer needs no introduction here laugh.png Flinging some psychic powers about will help but I think they're best focused on supporting your army and tackling bigger threats.

 

I think Tzeentch daemons will be good for handling hordes also, so if you're collecting them that might be a good avenue to explore first? Tzaangors should also be a good fit if you're not so fussed about fielding Thousand Sons in your Thousand Sons army, but I'll let those with more experience provide further detail thumbsup.gif

 

Welcome to the Thousand Sons, don't forget pictures biggrin.png


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#3
sfPanzer

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He probably meant Predators or else Assault Cannons would've been the better choice on Razorbacks anyway. :P

 

I'd say the dakkafiend is pretty decent against hordes? Otherwise the best counter for hordes is hordes so Tzaangors should work well.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#4
Xenoscry

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I favor Tzaangors and Maulerfiends with lasher tendrils. Also I run a daemonprince with double talons.
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#5
Marshlands

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Depending on the type you're dealing with tzaangors, cultists, tzaangor enlighted and maybe rubrics. Rubrics better against armour, death hex is useful against demon type opponents.

Allied pink horrors/ Flamers are a very good choice.

Anything damage 2 is usually pretty inefficient against 1 wound models
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#6
Tokugawa

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He probably meant Predators or else Assault Cannons would've been the better choice on Razorbacks anyway. :P

I'd say the dakkafiend is pretty decent against hordes? Otherwise the best counter for hordes is hordes so Tzaangors should work well.

However,forgefiends are garbage units themself.

They have almost the exactly same weapons as butcher cannons; but they have BS4+ while butcher contemptor has 2+; and a forgefiend is even 12pts more expensive than a contemptor.
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#7
dbecer01

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I know this is not practical, but I don't like the way fiends look 🤗

So, 2 more Daemon Princes (I have 1)and Ahriman look like theybwill ge my next purchases. Most people seem to agree on DP’s.

Edited by dbecer01, 10 January 2019 - 03:54 AM.


#8
Thousand Eyes

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He probably meant Predators or else Assault Cannons would've been the better choice on Razorbacks anyway. tongue.png

I'd say the dakkafiend is pretty decent against hordes? Otherwise the best counter for hordes is hordes so Tzaangors should work well.

However,forgefiends are garbage units themself.

They have almost the exactly same weapons as butcher cannons; but they have BS4+ while butcher contemptor has 2+; and a forgefiend is even 12pts more expensive than a contemptor.

 

 

Is that for a contempoty with two butcher cannons?


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#9
dbecer01

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Is there a chaos contrmptor, or do both Imperium and Chaos just get the same model? Would they bring all the chaos weapons in the same box?

Edited by dbecer01, 11 January 2019 - 05:23 PM.


#10
The Blood Raven

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As far as I know the butcher cannnon is only available via Forgeworld as resin bits. I’ve seen the contemptor from the Battle of Calth / plastic box used as a chaos version. It won’t come with all the chaos goodness though.
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#11
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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He probably meant Predators or else Assault Cannons would've been the better choice on Razorbacks anyway. tongue.png

I'd say the dakkafiend is pretty decent against hordes? Otherwise the best counter for hordes is hordes so Tzaangors should work well.

However,forgefiends are garbage units themself.

They have almost the exactly same weapons as butcher cannons; but they have BS4+ while butcher contemptor has 2+; and a forgefiend is even 12pts more expensive than a contemptor.

 

You're correct in most armies, but with the buffs that Thousand Sons can place on the Forgefiend (+1 to wound on shooting from Flickering Flames, Temporal Manipulation to heal wounds, etc.) a single Fiend can do fine. Contemptors can't be targeted with Flickering Flames and can't heal through ANY means other than Machina Malifica, per FAQ. They also don't regenerate one wound per turn, though they are faster and more accurate.

 

The Contemptor is a good choice, but doesn't gain full value from our buffs. What value it does gain mixes well with its existing stats, but I'd personally rather reserve Weaver of Fates and Glamour of Tzeentch for a huge brick of infantry.


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#12
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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As far as I know the butcher cannnon is only available via Forgeworld as resin bits. I’ve seen the contemptor from the Battle of Calth / plastic box used as a chaos version. It won’t come with all the chaos goodness though.

 

A Betrayal at Calth Kheres Assault Cannon arm can be combined with a Reaper Autocannon from a Defiler to make a great looking Butcher Cannon. Here's an example.

 

Contemptor

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#13
WarriorFish

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The butcher cannon is basically a fancy twin-linked autocannon, so anything similar will work no problem :tu: It's not what I'd consider an anti-horde weapon though.


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#14
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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I know this is not practical, but I don't like the way fiends look

So, 2 more Daemon Princes (I have 1)and Ahriman look like theybwill ge my next purchases. Most people seem to agree on DP’s.

 

How do you feel about Defilers?

 

A Twin Heavy Bolter, Havoc Launcher (or Flail-per preference), Combi-Bolter Defiler can do a number on Hordes for around 145 points. It also has a huge footprint for Warpflame Gargoyles if you really want to get crazy (one of the few vehicles where it makes sense).

 

It's also possible to get a dual Deathclaw Contemptor with 2 underslung Combi-Bolters and a Havoc Launcher for under 140. Run at the enemy, mow them down with around 12 shots, then charge in with 5 attacks hitting on 2's. Diabolic Strength for extra Lulz.

 

Sicaran with Heavy Bolters and Combi-Bolter or Havoc can work and can help w/Flyers too.

 

Aaaaand finally "My Favorite" (to quote Zorg from 5th element)....

 

The Hellforged Predator.

 

With an Infernal Flamestorm cannon, 2 Heavy Flamers, and a Combi-Flamer, it's just under 160. Roll forward (possibly w/Warp Time), hit with 2D6 Str5, AP-1 D2 shots, 2D6 Str 5 AP-1 D1 shots, 1D6 Str 4 AP- D1 shots (more if you want to use the Bolter portion of the combi). Then charge with D3+4 attacks and start eating people to get wounds back.

 

Don't forget to yell "TROGDOOOORR!!" at the top of your lungs when it charges. Bonus points for being a jerk and using 3 or enhancing it with Diabolic Strength and Prescience. smile.png


Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, 11 January 2019 - 06:41 PM.

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#15
Prot

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I'm still loving the Defilers, just really fun units for every day games.

 

I think this is where investing in some Pink horrors, a bit of Tzeentch (even flamers) starts to pay off a bit.

 

BTW: I love that conversion of Butcher Cannons. Great, economical idea.


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#16
sfPanzer

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Aaaaand finally "My Favorite" (to quote Zorg from 5th element)....

 

The Hellforged Predator.

 

With an Infernal Flamestorm cannon, 2 Heavy Flamers, and a Combi-Flamer, it's just under 160. Roll forward (possibly w/Warp Time), hit with 2D6 Str5, AP-1 D2 shots, 2D6 Str 5 AP-1 D1 shots, 1D6 Str 4 AP- D1 shots (more if you want to use the Bolter portion of the combi). Then charge with D3+4 attacks and start eating people to get wounds back.

 

Don't forget to yell "TROGDOOOORR!!" at the top of your lungs when it charges. Bonus points for being a jerk and using 3 or enhancing it with Diabolic Strength and Prescience. smile.png

 

 

Eh, really? That's basically a Baal Predator which costs 150p for Blood Angels (Stormbolter instead of combi-flamer) and I can't remember when I have anybody seen playing one the last time without saying he's not worth it (or playing one at all even). I don't think the melee profile would change anything about that.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#17
dbecer01

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Thanks everyone, this is all great info to work with.

Yeah, I can run defilers. I'm just wondering if I should wait on some of the older models, to see if they will create some new ones soon. Since all of thise new Chaos models in the Blackstone Fortress set, I feel like I should wait on the older non-Tzeentch stuff.

Edited by dbecer01, 11 January 2019 - 07:05 PM.

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#18
sfPanzer

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Yeah, I can run defilers. I'm just wondering if I should wait on some of the older models, to see if they will create some new ones soon. Since all of thise new Chaos models in the Blackstone Fortress set, I feel like I should wait on the older non-Tzeentch stuff.

 

Depends on which older models. I'd say all the daemon engines and vehicles aren't in danger to get replaced anytime soon. It's more likely that GW adds to the roster than to replace existing things for those. However infantry? That's kinda set in stone that we'll see new version of them soon-ish, however that shouldn't be of much concern for TSons players since they already got new infantry models.


Edited by sfPanzer, 11 January 2019 - 07:08 PM.

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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#19
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Aaaaand finally "My Favorite" (to quote Zorg from 5th element)....

The Hellforged Predator.

With an Infernal Flamestorm cannon, 2 Heavy Flamers, and a Combi-Flamer, it's just under 160. Roll forward (possibly w/Warp Time), hit with 2D6 Str5, AP-1 D2 shots, 2D6 Str 5 AP-1 D1 shots, 1D6 Str 4 AP- D1 shots (more if you want to use the Bolter portion of the combi). Then charge with D3+4 attacks and start eating people to get wounds back.

Don't forget to yell "TROGDOOOORR!!" at the top of your lungs when it charges. Bonus points for being a jerk and using 3 or enhancing it with Diabolic Strength and Prescience. smile.png

Eh, really? That's basically a Baal Predator which costs 150p for Blood Angels (Stormbolter instead of combi-flamer) and I can't remember when I have anybody seen playing one the last time without saying he's not worth it (or playing one at all even). I don't think the melee profile would change anything about that.
Infernal Flamestorm loses 1str and AP compared to reg Flamestorm but has 2d6 shots, making it more consistent against chaff. If you want to go with a Combi-Bolter instead, you can reduce the cost.

Also, the melee profile is 4 attacks, hitting on 5, Str 6, Ap-3. +D3 attacks when it charges. Any that hit are killing chaff on 2's. As it takes wounds, the WS goes up. Models slain heal a wound on 5. The BA vehicle is no real threat in CC and has no real way to double move and Charge Turn 1. This thing does via Warp Time and can demand attention early and often.

Finally, this is an Elite rather than a Heavy Support Choice. Allows you to drop it in without replacing a Heavy. Small benefit, but it's there.

EDIT: To be fair, a unit of 5 Spawn might do better at this task, given our Stratagem, but the charge might be a little too long in some cases.

Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, 11 January 2019 - 08:08 PM.

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#20
dbecer01

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You can move a baal pred up an additional 6d+6" with Lucifer Pattern Engines Strat though.

#21
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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You can move a baal pred up an additional 6d+6" with Lucifer Pattern Engines Strat though.

Only when Advancing. Therefore you can't shoot or charge.


Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, 11 January 2019 - 08:31 PM.

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#22
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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I'm still loving the Defilers, just really fun units for every day games.

 

I think this is where investing in some Pink horrors, a bit of Tzeentch (even flamers) starts to pay off a bit.

 

BTW: I love that conversion of Butcher Cannons. Great, economical idea.

 

Oh yeah....if you want to diversify into Tzeentch Daemons, then they win hands down in the anti-horde category. Flamers and Exalted Flamers dropping in with 12' range flames that use their Strength Characteristic (yay Heralds + Flickering Flames and possible buffs from Boon of Change). They can also shoot in combat as pistols and their overwatch can't be avoided without blocking LOS or using special abilities because you have to be in 12' range to declare a charge.

 

Then there are things like 30 Pink Horrors with a Blasted Standard dropping in to ruin someone's day. Don't forget to set aside points for Blues and Brims so that the unit takes forever to remove. Bonus points for putting a Herald nearby with the Warp Tether Warlord Trait so that you can reroll failed Morale to fish for 1's. :)


Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, 11 January 2019 - 08:44 PM.

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#23
dbecer01

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Nice, I already have 3 unbuilt Tzeentch Daemon boxes, so this looks like a win for me

Edited by dbecer01, 12 January 2019 - 12:07 AM.


#24
Raven1

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The problem with the predator isn't the short range or the price. Once it gets tied up it's basically useless. There is a reason you don't see many predators around these days. If you want flame weapons I would go with Tzeentch Flamers personally.
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#25
Skerr

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I have thought about screening a couple predators with a unit or two of full splitting horrors.
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