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Dealing with hordes

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#26
dbecer01

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But you have to get them in close to use the flamers on the predator, so you'd have to be careful with your movement, and have to get dangerously close to the enemy.

 

Then you have the problem that you have to completely screen them around the tank. Also, if they assault your screen, you can't shoot your predator's flamers into it.


I have thought about screening a couple predators with a unit or two of full splitting horrors.

 
But you have to get them in close to use the flamers on the predator, so you'd have to be careful with your movement, and have to get dangerously close to the enemy.
 
Then you have the problem that you have to completely screen them around the tank. Also, if they assault your screen, you can't shoot your predator's flamers into it.

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#27
Laughingman

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Another option is Quad Heavy Bolter (hell forged) Rapiers, 3 of them put out 36 Strength five Ap-1 shots... 


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#28
sfPanzer

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Flamers are good in only some very few cases:

1. It's a tertiary weapon system for the model, meaning it can do its job without the flamers and the flamer is just a nice to have thing that doesn't take the slot of something better

2. It's a unit with tons of flamers so the amount of dice you throw at the opponent solves most problems (T'au Crisis units with 9+ flamer is a good example for that)

3. The unit has the FLY keyword so it can fall back and keep shooting and is durable enough to utilize it (or has a similar rule like Baneblades)

 

Now when we look at the Predator he doesn't check any of these boxes. They are his main weapons, but he has only three of them and he also doesn't have any rule that allows him to fall back and keep shooting. 3 Flamer, no matter how strong they are, doesn't help you against hordes much. Flamestorm cannons and Heavy flamer might help you against more elite infantry but a mob of 30 boyz or 40 cultists etc just laughs about the 9 models you just killed in overwatch. 18 If you were able to shoot at them the turn before which isn't always a given. And if the enemy charges your Predator with a transport or other non-shooty vehicle first to soak up the overwatch its even worse.


Edited by sfPanzer, 12 January 2019 - 07:10 AM.

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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#29
Marshlands

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I have thought about screening a couple predators with a unit or two of full splitting horrors.


10 full splitting horrors is 230pts, you'll probably have a better screen, more cp and more resiliency with MSU brimstone horrors
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#30
The Blood Raven

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Laughingman: Thousand sons cannot use the rapier batteries; at least not in the Index.


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#31
Skerr

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Good point on flamers though I was speaking on the use of long range weaponry on the pred. 230 is hefty for a screen but if they are objective sitting and taking range pot shots with auto and laser cannons it might be worth the cost.

Edited by Skerr, 15 January 2019 - 12:05 AM.

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#32
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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I have thought about screening a couple predators with a unit or two of full splitting horrors.


10 full splitting horrors is 230pts, you'll probably have a better screen, more cp and more resiliency with MSU brimstone horrors

 

If you're just screening, I'd agree with just using Brims or Blues. If you want to blow up hordes with shooting and take objectives, go with the full split.


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#33
durdle-durdle

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So on a different note, how do you deal with a horde unit screening another unit?  For instance, one of my opponents is imperial guard, and i have so much trouble digging through his lines of guardsmen to get to the russes buried behind 12" of guard squad lines.  With very little in the way of anti tank, and smite only targetting the closest model (chaff guardsmen, likely), how do you either 1: chew through that many guardsmen to get to the tank or 2.) hit the tank without wasting tons of time mulching guardsmen?


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#34
sneakybamsen

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Get a tzeentch daemons detachment with some flamers you can drop in and burn away. They will absolutely tear through them.

 

If that is not an option, 30 tzaangors can kill amazing amounts of enemies.

 

The luxury way I would like to try at some point against hordes is 9 warpflamers in a rubric squad driven in via rhino. But that is the more expensive variant TS can do.


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#35
Raven1

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I do/have done 3 things generally speaking

1)Pink horror blobs. 30 pinks with a herald are doing 90 S4 assault 3 shots. You can get re-rolls to hit and +1 to wound with demon prince and a psychic power.

2) use units with fly i.e. demon prince with wings, units of disks of tzeentch to jump their line in the movement phase.

3) a blob of Tzaangors assault move get as close to the tank or preferred unit as you can, pile in, (optional attack twice stratagem pile in again), consolidate. This you want to wrap something so it can escape and you stay in combat or you get shot to bits.

Also I don't have but want to get a unit of 30 bloodletters plus a herald and/or demon prince because they can get 3d6 on the charge.

Edited by Raven1, 16 January 2019 - 04:56 PM.

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#36
Marshlands

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Something with high rate of fire, decent range and just send tgat in first and split the shots across the guard squads. Make sure you remember morale tests. Pink Horrors or Flamers are ideal if using Tzeentch. TS kinda struggle in this area, especially as until the guardsmen are dead the smite suck
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#37
Juggernut

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Is a dual kheres contemptor not a decent option? I guess the range is pretty awful, as lots of hordes can close a 24" gap pretty quickly.


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#38
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The problem with ramming tzangors into it is that he staggers about 3 guard squads 4-5” apart (do they can’t be consolidated into) and put the russes behind.
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#39
Raven1

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Is a dual kheres contemptor not a decent option? I guess the range is pretty awful, as lots of hordes can close a 24" gap pretty quickly.


I don't have any FW so I don't usually even consider it. A double kheres could work. On paper I prefer butcher cannons personally. The problem especially facing guard as both weapons have short range you have to walk there unless you also run a FW drop pod and if the guard counter charges, and surrounds the contemptor it will be stuck for a couple turns as it doesn't have the attacks to kill quickly in combat. I know it sounds like a crazy what if but Catachan guard are the perfect guard to do that with.
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#40
Marshlands

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Tzaangor enlighted with bows would be a good choice too. Chainswords and pistols could work too to warptime jump over the squads charge a unit at the back and consolidate into vehicles
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#41
Prot

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Some great ideas guys.

Also, although not strictly TS would be the Renegade Knight with dual Gatling and the Ironstorm is a nice touch for indirect.
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#42
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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The problem with ramming tzangors into it is that he staggers about 3 guard squads 4-5” apart (do they can’t be consolidated into) and put the russes behind.

Shoot the squads behind, then charge into the ones in front. Various forms of disc goats are great for this....as are Flamers of Tzeentch, who have a 12in range on their weapons and an OK CC profile.

 

I personally just Warp Time or Dark Matter 20 Rubrics up close. Weaver plus Glamour should allow you to shrug Russ fire long enough to rip open a huge gap in their line via Prescience and Vets. Just shoot 10 men at each of 2 squads behind the line and then charge. Hitting on 2's plus Death to the False Emperor on 5's should allow Rubrics to crush Guard just fine in CC. 

 

Keep Gaze of Fate handy for a charge reroll just in case.


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#43
Tamika

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Decimator with Storm Lasers has some nice synergy but the weapon is OOP now.
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#44
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Decimator with Storm Lasers has some nice synergy but the weapon is OOP now.

 

Agreed.

 

Another good one that is fluff-appropriate is the Hellforged Land Raider Achilles. Just bomb Mortals and Multi-Melta shots right onto his tanks, over the screen, using Weaver to enhance Invulns, Prescience to hit shots, and Gaze of Fate to reroll a bad shot count.

 

Speaking of shot count, I'd actually go for the dual Battle Cannon Knight if you're fighting Guard. You can get 9 Heavy Stubber shots, plus an average of 14 Battle Cannon shots and another 3 shots or so from the Ironstorm. That's pretty close to the dual Avenger's anti-infantry output at anything other than Flamer range. You can also use it to wreck big things and get good firepower out to 72 in. Gaze of Fate could help with shot count there too.


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#45
Skerr

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I have been considering an Achilles myself.
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#46
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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I have been considering an Achilles myself.

Would be a nice centerpiece for any TS army, that and a Storm Eagle.


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#47
Ahzek451

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Speaking of hordes..... anybody see the new bolter beta rules? Scarab termies just got a tad bit more useful. Now they always get max bolter shots at 24" instead of half. Rubric marines can sit still and shoot 2 shots at 24". Interesting....


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#48
Xenoscry

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Uhh what new rules? Please link.
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#49
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#50
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Thousand Sons were my thought for this too. A nice buff to Marines, but for those that do a bit more with their bolters (including Death Watch) a more notable one. I'm wondering if Rubrics should be able to always shoot twice like Terminators, given their special rule that allows them to ignore the heavy weapon penalty...


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