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Lore Question - Templars Corruptible?


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#1
Callan

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I'm in a discussion on a Facebook group. The guy who started the thread seems rally gung-ho about writing a story and making a matching mini about a Templar who has fallen to Chaos corruption. I'm PRETTY SURE I read in recent lore material that no records exist of Templars falling to Chaos. Not that we're incorruptible by nature, like the Greys, but our faith protects us, and our Astartes nature and aescetic lifestyle removes the cracks in a mortal's armor of faith.

Thing is, this discussion started right as I left for work. I could wait until I get home, and pore through my books, looking for that one passage... but frankly, I'd rather paint when I get home. Does anyone here remember the passage in question?

#2
Brother Tyler

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A Black Templar is possessed by a daemon in Daemonifuge.
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#3
Callan

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A Black Templar is possessed by a daemon in Daemonifuge.


Okay, but was that because he lost his faith and became a follower of the Ruinous Powers, or is he just not immune to daemon attacks in the same way he's not immune to plasma?

#4
Lord Marshal

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Anybody can be corrupted by Chaos save for the absolute cream of the crop (Grey Knights, Custards). Black Templars would certainly be more likely to resist it's physical and mental effects due to their faith, but it's far from impossible. Even Soroitas have fallen. Chaos is very much a cancer that you can absolutely take steps to stave off but there's inevitably some that would slip through the cracks in such an immensely massive galaxy. 


Edited by Lord Marshal, 11 January 2019 - 02:12 AM.

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#5
Gederas

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A Black Templar is possessed by a daemon in Daemonifuge.

Okay, but was that because he lost his faith and became a follower of the Ruinous Powers, or is he just not immune to daemon attacks in the same way he's not immune to plasma?

 

Anybody can be corrupted by Chaos save for the absolute cream of the crop (Grey Knights, Custards). Black Templars would certainly be more likely to resist it's physical and mental effects due to their faith, but it's far from impossible. 

Essentially this. Black Templars are harder to corrupt, but they're not incorruptible.

 

Really, there's no record of a Black Templar falling to Chaos because that story's never been told. In-universe, the lack of any BT falling can also be chalked up the fact that they don't have a Librarius, meaning if a Black Templar WAS corrupted and fell, it was never recorded because they don't have the specific group who does that.


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#6
Callan

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Anybody can be corrupted by Chaos save for the absolute cream of the crop (Grey Knights, Custards). Black Templars would certainly be more likely to resist it's physical and mental effects due to their faith, but it's far from impossible. Even Soroitas have fallen. Chaos is very much a cancer that you can absolutely take steps to stave off but there's inevitably some that would slip through the cracks in such an immensely massive galaxy.


Theoretically vulnerable, but practically?

I mean, I'm not opposed to being wrong here. Chaos SHOULD be insidious. But I thought I read something to the effect of the Templars being the only Chapter apart from the Greys to never lose a brother to heresy. Seemed a little over-the-top when I read it, but with the combination of zeal amd Astartes conditioning seems pretty potent, on reflection. I found it plausible.

#7
Brother Tyler

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A Black Templar is possessed by a daemon in Daemonifuge.


Okay, but was that because he lost his faith and became a follower of the Ruinous Powers, or is he just not immune to daemon attacks in the same way he's not immune to plasma?


I'm in a discussion on a Facebook group. The guy who started the thread seems rally gung-ho about writing a story and making a matching mini about a Templar who has fallen to Chaos corruption. I'm PRETTY SURE I read in recent lore material that no records exist of Templars falling to Chaos. Not that we're incorruptible by nature, like the Greys, but our faith protects us, and our Astartes nature and aescetic lifestyle removes the cracks in a mortal's armor of faith.

Thing is, this discussion started right as I left for work. I could wait until I get home, and pore through my books, looking for that one passage... but frankly, I'd rather paint when I get home. Does anyone here remember the passage in question?


Falling to Chaos corruption is falling to Chaos corruption, whether it's a gradual loss of faith or a rapid exposure to the corrupting influence of the Warp.

I don't recall any official statements to the effect that the Black Templars are any more resistant to the influence of Chaos than any other Adeptus Astartes (Grey Knights being the lone exception). Even if there have been any official statements (not fan opinions) attesting to the Black Templars being resistant to corruption, any in-universe perspective-based statements are suspect.

The fact remains, at least one Black Templar has been shown to succumb to Chaos, disproving any theories about supposed Black Templars incorruptibility.
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#8
Dark_Jober

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Well I think we should differenciate "being possesed" vs "turning renegade/chaos servant".

I understand that never was a BT that betrayed the Emperor, but they can be possesed, they can be defeated, but their faith don't allow them to turning renegade or chaos agent.
But hey! This is a lore in evolution and changes are coming...

Are there any chaos SoB? (servant, agent...) not possesed.

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#9
Brother Adelard

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I love how the more grown up debate on this topic happened on the site where people don't use their real names.
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#10
Sete

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I have been participating in that talk.

He specifically asked about a Emperor Champion being corrupted. So far its unheard of, and I personally think impossible, due to the ramifications of the EC being blessed by the Emperor himself.

 

Also if he wants to create and discuss what is technically chaos space marine, the Black Templar group is not the right place to do it.

Even so I tried to point him in the right way, but im not going into Traitor black Templars.

Chaos corrupts, there was a justicar fighting for the blood good, and it is implied that draigo fell to slanesh on the daemons codex.

BT would not be immune to it obviously. But an Emperor Champion? hold up buddy, the dude is a borderline Saint.

Also they die. That's the Emperor champion fate after the vision. Death. They aren't Emperor Champions for long.

 

Also Adelard, unfortunately social media is aflame due to the demagogues and their politics these days. People are a bit more rude and abrasive.

And to make things worse the guy who made the question in the first place is a moderator on that group.

Its not the first post about a khorne Black Templar made by him and members are starting to feel like he is a troll, and is purposively baiting. 

This is my personal observation. 


Edited by Sete, 11 January 2019 - 11:00 AM.

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#11
Callan

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Falling to Chaos corruption is falling to Chaos corruption, whether it's a gradual loss of faith or a rapid exposure to the corrupting influence of the Warp.

I don't recall any official statements to the effect that the Black Templars are any more resistant to the influence of Chaos than any other Adeptus Astartes (Grey Knights being the lone exception). Even if there have been any official statements (not fan opinions) attesting to the Black Templars being resistant to corruption, any in-universe perspective-based statements are suspect.

The fact remains, at least one Black Templar has been shown to succumb to Chaos, disproving any theories about supposed Black Templars incorruptibility.

 

 

I disagree that being the victim of an attack where the enemy overwhelms you by force is the same as having a weakness of character that allows the enemy in.

 

This is a busy season at work, or I'd start digging for the quote now.  Unfortunately, I mainly just work and sleep until Monday and Tuesday, so I'll have to wait.  But what I remember going over in my head after reading that passage was that Templars were not incorruptible, and certainly not immune from attack, but there was no instance of being seduced to Chaos on record.


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#12
Sete

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Every chapter has marines falling to chaos. To think BT would be immune to it, is going into a Mary Sue power levels. And I personally don't like it.


Edited by Sete, 11 January 2019 - 11:54 AM.

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#13
Leonaides

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Which puts it in the realms of 'space marines are immortal' since no GW publication has ever included the line "space marine Bob died peacefully in his sleep at the ripe old age of 350, of natural causes". 

 

Which is known to be a false impression. There are statements showing that apart from a couple of specific examples, everyone is potentially corruptable. If a Blood Angel, constantly reminded of exactly how Chaos caused the death of his primarch, can fall then there is no reason a BT cannot fall. There are also parallel examples of loyal marines becoming slowly tainted through exposure (which BT's certainly will be exposed to chaos over their combat lifetimes) and even sanctioned orders (the Ultramarine Sergeant who was ordered to clean up a planet with his squad and ended up overthrowing the governor and falling to the very thing he was fighting against while presumably still believing he was following orders till it was too late/he didnt care any more.


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#14
Reinhard

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I always read the lore that therer hasn't ever been a Templar that has fallen to chaos not that they couldn't fall. There hasn't been that many Templars, relatively speaking through this long period of time. They're not the Astra Militarum with untold trillions of potential victims that could fall. Just a thousand (or few thousand, depending on source) marines at any one point in time. The likliehood of any marine in general falling isn't the greatest save in situations where entire chapters fall or other extreme situations. And the Templars are a particularly zealous chapter. So a small number of unlikely individuals. It could happen, but it just hasn't happened. Or in reverse, just because it can happen, doesn't mean it has happened.

 

(The book someone referencing that apparently one templar had fallen I'm unfamiliar with, so I'll just disregard it tongue.png

 

Every chapter has marines falling to chaos.

 

I take issue with this claim. I am sure there have been many chapters whose members have never fallen to chaos. A chapter is a not a big unit, relatively speaking. typically always just 1000 marines. So suggesting that the rot of chaos has touched ALL of them is to me a rather extreme claim. Also, there are chapters that are only a few hundred years old, or just a millennia, a comparably short period of time. It's also conceivable there could be a number of chapters that have never even fought chaos since their inception. And perhaps a chapter that was created, then fought xenos and Emperor forbid, all died in glorious combat. And so on and so forth. I get that you're being figurative, and if you want to count every chapter as first-founding-chapter-derivatives, I would agree that it's a true statement. But yeah, my point is be careful with the wording, I would rather say that every chapter could have had marines falling to chaos, not that it must have happened.

 

To think BT would be immune to it, is going into a Mary Sue power levels. And I personally don't like it.

 

This I fully agree with.


Edited by Reinhard, 11 January 2019 - 12:25 PM.

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#15
Sete

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Yeah I meant the usual popular ones. But I can assure you my Grey Talons have never ever fallen to chaos. Because theres 1 and a half of them currently tongue.png


Edited by Sete, 11 January 2019 - 12:25 PM.

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#16
Schlitzaf

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Our 4th Ed Codex states something alongside that there never widespread issues of heresy in our chapter. Implying there has been issues of heresy just not on a large scale.
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#17
Marshal Rohr

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I saw his post. The guy is being snowflakey and isn't trying to develop a real character. Like everything he has posted has been stuff any 14 year would think is cool. He's just immature.


Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#18
Gederas

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Well I think we should differenciate "being possesed" vs "turning renegade/chaos servant".

I understand that never was a BT that betrayed the Emperor, but they can be possesed, they can be defeated, but their faith don't allow them to turning renegade or chaos agent.
But hey! This is a lore in evolution and changes are coming...

Are there any chaos SoB? (servant, agent...) not possesed.

Again, just because they haven't written anything where a Black Templar has turned renegade or gone to Chaos doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

 

To the last question: Yes, there's one.


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#19
Brother Adelard

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I thought he was being a bit oversensitive too. But this debate is still much more nuanced, as are most of the ones on here, than those on the FB page. People on there come up with some very strange ideas.

Also, being the EC is not an absolute guarantee of death. Captain Navarre was an EC who survived and carried on.
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#20
falcongek

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Hi.
Maybe a double post but my first one diappeared

I just shelved a wd from 2003ish that had a squad of posessed csm that were painted and converted to look like fallen imperial sm.
There were bt cf an if marines in that squad. So yes bt can be corrupted. Sadly.
If pictorial evidence is needed ill go searching for that issue.
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#21
Callan

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Every chapter has marines falling to chaos. To think BT would be immune to it, is going into a Mary Sue power levels. And I personally don't like it.

Two points:

 

1) I kind of agree, but as my memory of what I've read goes, I believe it's how the current canon stands.  It irritated me for a bit, when I read it, (didn't I?  Don't even know where to start looking...) before I realized how our unique character (religious zealotry) would interact with the Astartes conditioning and lifestyle eliminating a lot of the weaknesses that the mortal faithful have.

2) No one's talking about immunity, like the Greys have.  If my recollection is accurate, the passage in question said that we haven't failed in this way, not that we couldn't.  It's like a fortress Dorn built.  Theoretically, any fortress can fall.  In practice...



#22
Marshal Rohr

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Some will have, no chapter is immune to it. The point is that trying to do something like that for your personal character is like making Luke Skywalker ALSO a mandalorian and ALSO able to use dark side power with no downside or something. Its dumb. The guy should go back to the drawing board. His whiny posting about it is really just..... cringey.


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#23
BrotherWallenstein

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I have been participating in that talk.

He specifically asked about a Emperor Champion being corrupted. 

 

Could it happen? Probably, under the right circumstances. Pop the EC into the Eye of Terror for long enough, he's gonna get corrupted. He's no Draigo Sue.

 

Would it make for a good story? No. Taking a warrior blessed by the Emperor, from a chapter known to resist warp sorcery and that have exceptionally strong faith, then making him fall to Chaos... it's just bad storytelling.

 

Compare it to a Khorne Berzerker Champion denouncing Khorne and going loyalist.

 

Edit: People should do whatever they feel like when making up character stories etc.


Edited by BrotherWallenstein, 12 January 2019 - 11:20 AM.


#24
Honda

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The fact remains, at least one Black Templar has been shown to succumb to Chaos, disproving any theories about supposed Black Templars incorruptibility.

 

 

That wasn't a Templar, it was an Alpha Legion infiltrator who was unable to manifest  ZEAL. He was also planted in our chapter to sow discord and distrust amongst  the faithful.

 

Chaos is  everywhere, even where it isn't. ;)

 

I just shelved a wd from 2003ish that had a squad of posessed csm that were painted and converted to look like fallen imperial sm.
There were bt cf an if marines in that squad. So yes bt can be corrupted. Sadly.

 

 

Umm...no.  That was one person's army, not associated with GW, who painted his "possessed" unit that way. That is not evidence that Templars were corrupted, only that followers of Slaanesh have wild imaginations.

 

Which is how  you get into trouble.


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#25
Brother Talarian

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What? Who cares. It’s fantastical fiction. If he wants that to happen, so be it.

I also noticed the several posts on the forum but didn’t bother replying.

He was asking for opinions about a project he considered working on. It’s for HIS pleasure. If you think it’s “cringe” then don’t comment on his post and move on. If you have an idea that can help him with his project present it.

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