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Bolter Discipline

Beta Rules Bolter Discipline

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#26
Lemondish

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Isn’t this just a case of the rich get richer?

If you listed the bolter archetypes in a rough descending order of strength:

- Hurricane Bolters
- Deathwatch Stormbolters
- Inferno Stormbolters
- Stormbolters
- Deathwatch Bolters
- Sternguard Bolters
- Inferno Bolters
- Bolt Rifles
- Bolters

you also get a descending list of how much benefit each type gets. That is, the stronger the weapon was, the more it benefits. Isn’t that the exact opposite of how buffs should work?

Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that Marines are getting buffed and that it’s being done in small increments rather than leaps and bounds. But if this rule had been posted on this or another forum as a proposed rule it wouldn’t have survived the first page before being ripped to shreds as a terrible idea.

I suppose that speaks far more to the community's inability to adequately identify good solutions.

Particularly given your entire argument completely (conveniently?) forgot to address the platforms those weapons are on.

For example, hurricane bolters are found on Land Raider Crusaders, Devastator Centurions, Ironclad Dreads, Corvus Blackstars, and Storm Ravens. So yes, they all received a handful of extra S4 shooting from 12"-24", but were those units really considered "the rich"?

Honestly, there's one outlier and it's Deathwatch. However, for those familiar with Deathwatch, Veterans rarely engaged outside of storm bolter rapid fire range because they had the tools to ensure they never have to. This change boosts Terminator squads and Bikers by providing more tactical options with those units in particular, whereas there's still a massive disincentive to ever march Veterans up the field quite that way.

So yeah, Deathwatch storm bolters can now do their full damage from 12"-24" if they're stationary. But an army with so few models can't afford to remain stationary if you're intending to play to the mission. This will have a negligible impact on their efficacy because of their common use in a match - a fact that wasn't taken into account when you proclaimed the rich got richer.

****

As far as feedback goes, I want to highlight two issues, one major and one minor.

This gap was already pretty big between the more expensive auto bolt rifle and the standard rapid fire one, now the gap is wider, further devaluing that option. Similarly, there's little reason to select the stalker here given how effective backline camping bolt rifles can be now.

And a minor beef...the relic rules state you have to replace a rapid fire bolt rifle with a relic that is also rapid fire, which means the new Duty's Burden Crimson Fists rifle is only ever gaining this benefit when you give it to an Ancient since no other character carries a bolt rifle. That can't be intentional.

Edited by Lemondish, 21 January 2019 - 11:29 PM.

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#27
SillyDreadnought

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Bolter Discipline really breathes new life into a whole host of units that didn't see play. Although it does little to bring the Tactical Squad back, unless you try to maximize the bolter fire. Which I don't think people will do, as 10 Tacticals with bolters is just... very lacklustre. Scouts with boltguns and Intercessors are still kings of the Marine troops selection.

Oddly enough, I think 20 strong CSM squads get a new lease on life with this rule. While kinda restricted to being run with Black Legion with Abaddon, or Iron Warriors with Cold and Bitter to mitigate the inherent morale problems with big squads, having a big body of bolters with a couple of specials lurking within seems far more appealing to me now personally. Especially for holding ground.



#28
newdigitalGK

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psybolt ammo adds some flavor too but I still don't see enough of a buff to take GK's in most games.....



#29
Kallas

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WS 2+/Bs2+ Cannoness vs ws3+/bs3+ stock space marine, so, uh, humans can be better than Marines?

There is no fluff argument to say sisters shouldn't be as good as Marines, at least regarding aiming. Like, it's the future, we both have power armor and aiming systems in our helmets and train nonstop. I don't think any of us can get much better at shooting.


Imperial Guard Platoon Commanders have WS/BS3+ and 3A. I'd wager that the vast majority of them are far inferior to an Astartes Sternguard Veteran...but stats wise the PlatCom has the advantage. Why? Game balance.

Yes the Cannoness has better stats, but Astartes haven't felt like anything close to their fluff depictions for many editions, if ever.

There are numerous fluff reasons why Astartes should be better at simple aiming than Sisters. Here's one of the most basic:

"Occulobe
Phase 10: This implant sits at the base of the brain, and provides hormonal and genetic stimuli which enable a Marine's eyes to respond to optic-therapy. This in turn allows the Apothecaries to make adjustments to the growth patterns of the eye and the light-receptive retinal cells - the result being that Space Marines have far superior vision to normal humans, and can see in low-light conditions almost as well as in daylight."


Yeah, Sisters are definitely just as good as genetically modified post-humans...

#30
Dusktiger

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And a minor beef...the relic rules state you have to replace a rapid fire bolt rifle with a relic that is also rapid fire, which means the new Duty's Burden Crimson Fists rifle is only ever gaining this benefit when you give it to an Ancient since no other character carries a bolt rifle. That can't be intentional.

 

i think you're reading that one wrong.

 

Duty's Burden - CRIMSON FISTS model with either a Bolt Rifle, a Master-Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle, or a Master-Crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle only. Replaces the bearer’s Bolt Rifle, Master-Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle, or Master-Crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle.
 

you could easily give that to a primaris captain, or primaris LT. 
 


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#31
The Unseen

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Should've been +1 shot if any of those conditions are met instead.
This does nothing to help bolters where they *should* excel.
Blowing targets up at close range.
That's what we're told they excel at over and over again, and marines have always pushed a close range shooting/melee hybrid, not gunline shooting.

The boost to vehicle bolters is nice, but for basic dudes, this isn't very helpful.
Most marine armies don't have the unit's available to just sit still at 24" all game, as their still going to get out-shot by shooting armies, and you gotta move to contest/take objectives.

I guess bolter guys in dev squads are happy, hurray?
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#32
Lemondish

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And a minor beef...the relic rules state you have to replace a rapid fire bolt rifle with a relic that is also rapid fire, which means the new Duty's Burden Crimson Fists rifle is only ever gaining this benefit when you give it to an Ancient since no other character carries a bolt rifle. That can't be intentional.

i think you're reading that one wrong.

Duty's Burden - CRIMSON FISTS model with either a Bolt Rifle, a Master-Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle, or a Master-Crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle only. Replaces the bearer’s Bolt Rifle, Master-Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle, or Master-Crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle.

you could easily give that to a primaris captain, or primaris LT.
The point is that you won't benefit from Bolter Discipline since a Primaris Captain or Lieutenant cannot take a rapid fire bolt rifle. The rule says "when firing relics that replace a Rapid Fire bolt weapon so long as the relic is also a Rapid Fire weapon". If you're giving the relic to a Captain or LT, it's replacing the master crafted auto or stalker, which are Assault and Heavy respectively, not Rapid Fire.

This cannot be intentional so I suggest giving that as feedback.

Edited by Lemondish, 22 January 2019 - 03:21 AM.


#33
taikishi

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I know I have already emailed GW about it, but I'd suggest all other sisters and/or Custodes players send an email. There's no reason a sister or a 'stode shouldn't be able to effectively use their weapons.

It’s not a bolter rule. It’s an astartes rule. A sister doesn’t have the training/implants an astartes does and Custodes have different benefits in different areas.

Going by your argument, a marine player has a right to acts of faith benefits because they are equally as pious/covered in purity seals.
Sisters use the same technology and train just as well as the Marines.
Sisters are no way near the skill level of a marine. One is a genetically engineered machine engineered for war in human form the other is still human but with strong beliefs. Marines have faster reaction etc meaning they can track, fire and reload quicker. This represents it nicely.
WS 2+/Bs2+ Cannoness vs ws3+/bs3+ stock space marine, so, uh, humans can be better than Marines?

There is no fluff argument to say sisters shouldn't be as good as Marines, at least regarding aiming. Like, it's the future, we both have power armor and aiming systems in our helmets and train nonstop. I don't think any of us can get much better at shooting.
Really...You must realise tt is an abstract and not a good argument to take. In the lore a marine is massively superior to a baseline human. Hence why sisters dont get access to this beta rule. It is meant to represent the superior physiologically nature of astartes in an abstract nature due to the lack of granularity on the tt. Furthermore it helps balance the main (from gws perspective) faction to make them slightly more competitive.

 

 

Abstract - the previous six editions of the game have had a Canoness and a Space Marine Captain relatively on-par with each other so your argument about the abstract isn't really a good one:

2E Captain: M4 WS7 BS7 S5 T5 W3 I7 A3 Ld10

2E Canoness: M4 WS6 BS7 S4 T5 W3 I7 A3 Ld10

 

3-7E Captain: WS5 or 6 depending on the edition, BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 Ld10

3-7E Canoness: WS5 BS5 S3 T3 I4 A3 Ld10

 

As for the rule itself, it has roots back in 2E but the game was vastly different than even 3rd - 7th were. It was replaced with the 3E Rapid Fire rule for a reason and while I think it's a nice boost for units that need help (Terminators, bikes, Centurions), it is a case of the rich (Marines in general) getting richer and does more to also prop up units that don't need help - namely scouts.

 

My biggest beef reverts back to "how is this okay for an army wide rule usable every turn by potentially every unit in your army but Index Divine Guidance, which was usable generally once a turn, isn't?"

 

Honestly? Keep the rule for Terminators, bikes, Centurions and vehicles (I also think vehicles shouldn't have -1 to hit when moving and firing heavy weapons). If this is also meant to make Tactical squads better, make scouts WS 4+ / BS 4+ like they were for many editions and drop their points slightly to compensate. That delineation between Scout Marine and Tactical Marine should make Tac squads more attractive since they'll have more consistency and (generally) better survival over scouts.


Edited by taikishi, 22 January 2019 - 03:29 AM.

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#34
sfPanzer

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Honestly, the lobbying for Sisters is getting a bit annoying.
There IS a difference in skill and quality between Sisters and Marines. If there weren't then Marines wouldn't be such a great thing in-universe and the only thing needed would be Sisters.
Also arguing with ingame stats is bound to fail since while it might have the same number it might represent two opposite ends of a spectrum in-universe.
GW repeatedly says that one model can have S4 and be barely stronger than peak human while another model can have S4 and be clearly superhuman and slap the other model around for days (not with these words obviously).

If you have a problem with some of the Beta rules for the Sisters Codex then that's feedback to those rules. No point in bringing that up here since this is an Astartes rule.
If you think Sisters will fall too far behind as shooty army because of this rule, then that's a fair point, but one has to question the viability of Sisters if not being able to double tap bolters while stationary would make such big a difference in the first place. Even for most Marines the benefit is questionable in its current version. The only real use I see for it is having one Intercessor unit for my backfield that now doesn't have to take Stalker Bolt rifles, but the rest of the army usually wants to occupy the middle of the board anyway. Other than that it's a tiny boost to TDA, Bikes and redshirt Devastators.

Look, I can understand wanting some of the cake as well. However factions are different for a reason and this is a faction buff, not a weapon buff. You can accept that or be one of those guys who constantly rave about new loyalist Marine releases not being available to chaos as well while being completely fine with chaos stuff not being available to loyalist Marines. Stop looking at other peoples plates and focus more on your own.
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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#35
sfPanzer

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Should've been +1 shot if any of those conditions are met instead.
This does nothing to help bolters where they *should* excel.
Blowing targets up at close range.
That's what we're told they excel at over and over again, and marines have always pushed a close range shooting/melee hybrid, not gunline shooting.
The boost to vehicle bolters is nice, but for basic dudes, this isn't very helpful.
Most marine armies don't have the unit's available to just sit still at 24" all game, as their still going to get out-shot by shooting armies, and you gotta move to contest/take objectives.
I guess bolter guys in dev squads are happy, hurray?


I completly agree. They don't just need some long range punch when stationary, they also need some more punch when they are where they want to be.
Additionally they'd need some more durability when they are this close since being close also increases your opponents damage output thanks to Rapid fire, but that's a topic for another day.

Anyway, I'll playtest these beta rules as much as I can and will give feedback to GW but I have no doubt that it'll include the need for some close ranged love in some form.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#36
Dracos

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I like how this effects the gunline element of a Raven Guard ObSec holder. Not that anyone was afraid to get into melee with Marines (okay maybe Tau) anyway but this gives a nice little bump to that MSU you might have ignored before, and now fires with the output of a full squad. You'll probably still ignore it but the tax is higher now :)


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#37
ashc

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obsec holders get a little bit better, bikers and terminators will hopefully see more consideration in the future.

 

I don't think it will bring a huge shift towards more people fielding boltermarines, but still it looks like a shift towards something better.


Edited by ashc, 22 January 2019 - 06:47 AM.

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#38
Halfpint100

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I like it. A nice little unexpected boost

#39
Waking Dreamer

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obsec holders get a little bit better, bikers and terminators will hopefully see more consideration in the future.
 
I don't think it will bring a huge shift towards more people fielding boltermarines, but still it looks like a shift towards something better.


It definitely gives GK Terminators more value (in a non-tournament level). They can defend objectives a bit better, chipping away at faster units kitting them or even clear held objectives, or screening units as they constantly push foward.

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#40
Slasher956

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Re Sisters:  from a sisters player, nope they shouldnt get this rule... further discussions on them should be in the Beta thread for troops.

 

Re this Beta rule for SMs / CSMs ... without having played against it (yet... game booked for next week against GKs) I like the look of it, it gives a little boost across the board to units that barely see table time in the club where I play that might be enough to pull them out of the box into semi competitive lists.


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#41
Dam13n

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Whether Sisters should or should not get this rule is unlikely to prove a useful discussion here. It also does not further a discussion on the merits (or lack thereof) of this newly proposed rule.

If anyone does feel that Sisters should get this rule, you will be far better served contacting GW directly via their Facebook page than you will be posting here. So I suggest you do that rather than derail this topic further.

Let's keep this discussion focused on the rule itself going forward, please.

Any further non-constructive comments will be deleted, and should they persist, this thread will be Terminated!

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#42
Aurica

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This new rule means I have less reason to give my characters combi-flamers as I either should move towards 12" or stay at 24".

I would have preferred an exploding dice mechanic for Bolter Discipline. This applies to all Bolter Weapons from Bolt Pistol to Heavy Bolters etc...

 

1) On a natural roll of 6 on a to hit roll, the unit gets to fire one more shot.  

or

2) On a to would roll of 6, the weapon gains additional -1 AP.  This means bolt guns are -1AP and Stalker Bolt Rifles become -3 AP.

 

Anyway, this is still better than nothing.  I'm slightly happy my tacticals get a very minor buff if this becomes official.


Edited by Aurica, 22 January 2019 - 10:25 AM.


#43
Kallas

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I would have preferred an exploding dice mechanic for Bolter Discipline. This applies to all Bolter Weapons from Bolt Pistol to Heavy Bolters etc...

 

1) On a natural roll of 6 on a to hit roll, the unit gets to fire one more shot.  

or

2) On a to would roll of 6, the weapon gains additional -1 AP.  This means bolt guns are -1AP and Stalker Bolt Rifles become -3 AP.

 

Anyway, this is still better than nothing.  I'm slightly happy my tacticals get a very minor buff if this becomes official.

Urgh, no thank you, 6+ effects are horrible especially with minimal dice manipulation (we have plentiful reroll 1s, but almost no +1s anywhere). I'd much rather have the current Beta Bolter rules - something which is within my control is far more prefereable, even if it isn't particularly world shaking.


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#44
Dusktiger

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...
The point is that you won't benefit from Bolter Discipline since a Primaris Captain or Lieutenant cannot take a rapid fire bolt rifle. The rule says "when firing relics that replace a Rapid Fire bolt weapon so long as the relic is also a Rapid Fire weapon". If you're giving the relic to a Captain or LT, it's replacing the master crafted auto or stalker, which are Assault and Heavy respectively, not Rapid Fire.

This cannot be intentional so I suggest giving that as feedback.

 

 

yes they can; Duty's Burden is a Rapid Fire 2 relic. it doesn't matter which one of those 3 guns you're replacing with it.  Duty's Burden will always be a 36" Rapid Fire 2 that does AP -2 D 2.  It's just an odd one because it can replace 2 weapons that do not have the same weapon type in their profiles.  But that does not mean that replacing an assault 2 weapon with Duty's Burden suddenly makes it stop being Rapid Fire 2; that's a fixed statline for the Relic.

 

The normal rule of thumb is you have to match the Relic weapon with the weapon it replaces.  But if the Relic specifically states it can replace a different kind of weapon, then it doesn't matter if the one it replaces had a different type in its profile; you're just using the new profile of the Relic.


Edited by Dusktiger, 22 January 2019 - 12:28 PM.

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#45
sfPanzer

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...
The point is that you won't benefit from Bolter Discipline since a Primaris Captain or Lieutenant cannot take a rapid fire bolt rifle. The rule says "when firing relics that replace a Rapid Fire bolt weapon so long as the relic is also a Rapid Fire weapon". If you're giving the relic to a Captain or LT, it's replacing the master crafted auto or stalker, which are Assault and Heavy respectively, not Rapid Fire.

This cannot be intentional so I suggest giving that as feedback.

 

 

yes they can; Duty's Burden is a Rapid Fire 2 relic. it doesn't matter which one of those 3 guns you're replacing with it.  Duty's Burden will always be a 36" Rapid Fire 2 that does AP -2 D 2.  It's just an odd one because it can replace 2 weapons that do not have the same weapon type in their profiles.  But that does not mean that replacing an assault 2 weapon with Duty's Burden suddenly makes it stop being Rapid Fire 2; that's a fixed statline for the Relic.

 

The normal rule of thumb is you have to match the Relic weapon with the weapon it replaces.  But if the Relic specifically states it can replace a different kind of weapon, then it doesn't matter if the one it replaces had a different type in its profile; you're just using the new profile of the Relic.

 

 

RAW that's not quite correct though.

There are a few conditions a weapon has to meet to be able to benefit from the Bolter Discipline rule.

  • It has Bolt in its name and has to be a Rapid fire weapon

or in case of relics

  • it has to be a Rapid fire weapon that replaces a Rapid fire bolt weapon.

So in case of the Primaris Captains and Lieutenants who can't take Bolt rifles neither condition is met. It's not a Rapid fire with Bolt in its name and it also doesn't replace a Rapid fire bolt weapon even tho it is a Rapid fire weapon itself. It replaces either an Assault bolt weapon or a Heavy bolt weapon in this case.

It's an edge case and most likely not intended like that so its something we should definitely mention in our feedback mails so they can either adjust it or address it in a FAQ.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#46
Lemondish

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...

The point is that you won't benefit from Bolter Discipline since a Primaris Captain or Lieutenant cannot take a rapid fire bolt rifle. The rule says "when firing relics that replace a Rapid Fire bolt weapon so long as the relic is also a Rapid Fire weapon". If you're giving the relic to a Captain or LT, it's replacing the master crafted auto or stalker, which are Assault and Heavy respectively, not Rapid Fire.

This cannot be intentional so I suggest giving that as feedback.
yes they can; Duty's Burden is a Rapid Fire 2 relic. it doesn't matter which one of those 3 guns you're replacing with it. Duty's Burden will always be a 36" Rapid Fire 2 that does AP -2 D 2. It's just an odd one because it can replace 2 weapons that do not have the same weapon type in their profiles. But that does not mean that replacing an assault 2 weapon with Duty's Burden suddenly makes it stop being Rapid Fire 2; that's a fixed statline for the Relic.

The normal rule of thumb is you have to match the Relic weapon with the weapon it replaces. But if the Relic specifically states it can replace a different kind of weapon, then it doesn't matter if the one it replaces had a different type in its profile; you're just using the new profile of the Relic.
I think you're wrong here Panzer - the rule specifically says it needs to replace a rapid fire weapon and be a rapid fire weapon - it only ever meets half that, but also doesn't have bolt in its name. We all know it's a bolt weapon - the rule still ignores it.

I don't think the wording for the relic section is inclusive enough. That's the feedback I'm providing. You feel free to do what you wish :)

Edited by Lemondish, 22 January 2019 - 01:35 PM.


#47
sfPanzer

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...

The point is that you won't benefit from Bolter Discipline since a Primaris Captain or Lieutenant cannot take a rapid fire bolt rifle. The rule says "when firing relics that replace a Rapid Fire bolt weapon so long as the relic is also a Rapid Fire weapon". If you're giving the relic to a Captain or LT, it's replacing the master crafted auto or stalker, which are Assault and Heavy respectively, not Rapid Fire.

This cannot be intentional so I suggest giving that as feedback.
yes they can; Duty's Burden is a Rapid Fire 2 relic. it doesn't matter which one of those 3 guns you're replacing with it. Duty's Burden will always be a 36" Rapid Fire 2 that does AP -2 D 2. It's just an odd one because it can replace 2 weapons that do not have the same weapon type in their profiles. But that does not mean that replacing an assault 2 weapon with Duty's Burden suddenly makes it stop being Rapid Fire 2; that's a fixed statline for the Relic.

The normal rule of thumb is you have to match the Relic weapon with the weapon it replaces. But if the Relic specifically states it can replace a different kind of weapon, then it doesn't matter if the one it replaces had a different type in its profile; you're just using the new profile of the Relic.
I think you're wrong here Panzer - the rule specifically says it needs to replace a rapid fire weapon and be a rapid fire weapon - it only ever meets half that, but also doesn't have bolt in its name. We all know it's a bolt weapon - the rule still ignores it.

I don't think the wording for the relic section is inclusive enough. That's the feedback I'm providing. You feel free to do what you wish smile.png

 

 

I think you misunderstood me. It says it needs to replace a rapid fire weapon and be a rapid fire weapon. That's correct. However in case of Primaris Captains and Lieutenants it doesn't replace a rapid fire weapon. It replaces either an assault weapon or a heavy weapon. Hence why that relic doesn't benefit from the Bolter Disciplin.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#48
bluntpencil

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I find that this makes Marines far too static. They should be getting up close and shooting people in the goddamn face.

 

Now, there's no point in me teleporting my Storm Bolter wielding Deathwatch Veterans up close and personal, because I can just sit at 30" and rain fire down upon the enemy from a super secure gunline.


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#49
Aspecti

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Seems like a nice boost for Scout Bikers. A squad of three bikers, storm bolter on the sergeant, will put out 16 S4 shots at 24". At 12" when they can shoot with their shotguns too that will be 22 shots for 71 points.


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Salute the great Primarch,

Salute the Emperor,

Onward to victory!


#50
Lemondish

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-snip-

I think you misunderstood me. It says it needs to replace a rapid fire weapon and be a rapid fire weapon. That's correct. However in case of Primaris Captains and Lieutenants it doesn't replace a rapid fire weapon. It replaces either an assault weapon or a heavy weapon. Hence why that relic doesn't benefit from the Bolter Disciplin.

Yep, that's what I was saying. Apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the topic - I found in the one game I've played with it so far that it opens up more tactical options so you aren't always trying to rush forward and shoot things in the face. It's powerful because of that.

And also why I dislike it. I want to be a domineering presence in the middle of the table, but I fear I'll be inclined to stay put in the back as a gunline.

Going to try it out with some added mobility from transports. See if the extra range and positioning helps improve the early game, then rush forward to take the fight to the enemy.

Edited by Lemondish, 22 January 2019 - 03:42 PM.






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