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Bolter Discipline

Beta Rules Bolter Discipline

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#51
sfPanzer

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If we're saying the same thing why do you think I'm wrong then?

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#52
Lemondish

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If we're saying the same thing why do you think I'm wrong then?


I mean, if we both agree that Duty's Burden doesn't benefit from Bolter Discipline on Caps and LTs because it can't meet the relic replacement requirements listed in the rule, then you're not wrong and I was mistaken. I apologize once again.
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#53
sfPanzer

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Now it's clear. Yeah we agree on that. :D

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#54
Brokejaw Gutripper

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I can see how both sides can be interpreted, but I am fairly certain the CF bolter can benefit from the beta rule.

The fact the weapon turns all three options, 2 of which are available to the characters in question, into a rapid fire weapon should be enough. The additional line about needing to be a RF weapon I think is merely there to be inclusive, and not a limiting factor to weapons that specifically state they become rapid fire.

It may be a simple FAQ fix is all that’s needed but it is wonky wording
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#55
Dracos

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I find that this makes Marines far too static. They should be getting up close and shooting people in the goddamn face.

Noble sentiments but given current mechanics of the game a successful (relatively) Marine player needs to show patience. Rushing in to crush face with bolters (or almost anything for that matter) without weakening your opponent through firepower is just a good way to throw away your units.

Space Marines lack internal balance in the Codex. That and a lot of other things but anything that makes Tacticals or Intercessors a greater threat (for free) is a good thing. Marines getting up close, means Marines in melee and for most part that ends badly for the boys in power armor.

I know there are a plethora of proposed ideas to make Bolters and Power Armor better. They have to be simple and have to balance across Factions. I like this as a beta rule. I’d rather they terst out baby steps than go OP throwing balance off and further creating the power creep that eventually has made previous editions unplayable after a time.

(If they can do this thing why not make Chapter Tactics available to vehicles. Yeah dead horse, my apologies)

Edit: i think there is a specific reason HQ Primaris don’t have the Bolt Rifle option. No clue what it is just like many things Primaris but pretty sure Lemondish and sfPanzer have it right. Don’t expect an FAQ on this I’m afraid (more sad actually but meh)

Edited by Inquisitor Dracos, 22 January 2019 - 06:07 PM.

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#56
taikishi

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Honestly, the lobbying for Sisters is getting a bit annoying.
There IS a difference in skill and quality between Sisters and Marines. If there weren't then Marines wouldn't be such a great thing in-universe and the only thing needed would be Sisters.
Also arguing with ingame stats is bound to fail since while it might have the same number it might represent two opposite ends of a spectrum in-universe.
GW repeatedly says that one model can have S4 and be barely stronger than peak human while another model can have S4 and be clearly superhuman and slap the other model around for days (not with these words obviously).
If you have a problem with some of the Beta rules for the Sisters Codex then that's feedback to those rules. No point in bringing that up here since this is an Astartes rule.
If you think Sisters will fall too far behind as shooty army because of this rule, then that's a fair point, but one has to question the viability of Sisters if not being able to double tap bolters while stationary would make such big a difference in the first place. Even for most Marines the benefit is questionable in its current version. The only real use I see for it is having one Intercessor unit for my backfield that now doesn't have to take Stalker Bolt rifles, but the rest of the army usually wants to occupy the middle of the board anyway. Other than that it's a tiny boost to TDA, Bikes and redshirt Devastators.
Look, I can understand wanting some of the cake as well. However factions are different for a reason and this is a faction buff, not a weapon buff. You can accept that or be one of those guys who constantly rave about new loyalist Marine releases not being available to chaos as well while being completely fine with chaos stuff not being available to loyalist Marines. Stop looking at other peoples plates and focus more on your own.

As a Marine player since 1994, it's a faction buff that isn't needed on a faction-wide scale because it makes units that people already take because the alternatives are worse BETTER than the units that needed the help in the first place.

Tactical Marines: make scouts 4+/4+, drop their points slightly to compensate and now Tactical Marines are more attractive.

Terminators, bikes, Centurions, vehicles? I think a better rule is to just have them (and maybe a few other units) count as being stationary when firing heavy weapons and then giving them this rule for bolters. And the heavy weapon rule should be for all vehicles and bikes, not just Marines.

Edited by taikishi, 22 January 2019 - 06:28 PM.

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#57
sfPanzer

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Honestly, the lobbying for Sisters is getting a bit annoying.
There IS a difference in skill and quality between Sisters and Marines. If there weren't then Marines wouldn't be such a great thing in-universe and the only thing needed would be Sisters.
Also arguing with ingame stats is bound to fail since while it might have the same number it might represent two opposite ends of a spectrum in-universe.
GW repeatedly says that one model can have S4 and be barely stronger than peak human while another model can have S4 and be clearly superhuman and slap the other model around for days (not with these words obviously).
If you have a problem with some of the Beta rules for the Sisters Codex then that's feedback to those rules. No point in bringing that up here since this is an Astartes rule.
If you think Sisters will fall too far behind as shooty army because of this rule, then that's a fair point, but one has to question the viability of Sisters if not being able to double tap bolters while stationary would make such big a difference in the first place. Even for most Marines the benefit is questionable in its current version. The only real use I see for it is having one Intercessor unit for my backfield that now doesn't have to take Stalker Bolt rifles, but the rest of the army usually wants to occupy the middle of the board anyway. Other than that it's a tiny boost to TDA, Bikes and redshirt Devastators.
Look, I can understand wanting some of the cake as well. However factions are different for a reason and this is a faction buff, not a weapon buff. You can accept that or be one of those guys who constantly rave about new loyalist Marine releases not being available to chaos as well while being completely fine with chaos stuff not being available to loyalist Marines. Stop looking at other peoples plates and focus more on your own.


As a Marine player since 1994, it's a faction buff that isn't needed on a faction-wide scale because it makes units that people already take because the alternatives are worse BETTER than the units that needed the help in the first place.

Tactical Marines: make scouts 4+/4+, drop their points slightly to compensate and now Tactical Marines are more attractive.

Terminators, bikes, Centurions, vehicles? I think a better rule is to just have them (and maybe a few other units) count as being stationary when firing heavy weapons and then giving them this rule for bolters.

 

 

Makes units people already take better? Which ones? People avoid Bolter wherever they can except for Stormbolter on non-TDA Veterans recently because they actually are properly pointed for once.

 

  • People take Scouts for their Infiltration ability and because they are the cheapest Troop choice for the most part. The fact that they are basically the same as Bolter Tacticals offensive and defensive wise is just cherry on the top. Now with this change it does almost nothing for Scouts since they often already are within Rapid fire range thanks to their infiltration but it does more for objective camping Tacticals. Closing the gap is a good thing.
  • Intercessors, yeah people take them because they are basically better Tacticals. Can't change that. Bummer that it only buffs the Rapid fire variant which already got taken most of the time but GW is doing only little steps this time so there's a good chance that once they think they got this one right they give the Assault and the Heavy variant some more attention as well.
  • Bolter Devastators. People took them so they can die ... if they took them. Most didn't actually. Now they might actually do something in games so that's great.
  • Bikes. Nobody really takes Bikes. They suck. With this buff they might have a role as skirmisher. It's yet to be seen tho.
  • Scout Bikes. Yeah they get taken, but this buff does little for them since they would need to be within 12" to use their shotguns anyway. It just closes the gap between regular Bikes and Scout Bikes so that's a good thing.
  • Terminators and Centurions. Nobody really takes them. I doubt this buff will change much about it since part of their cost is always the melee capability but it's a start at least.

So apart from the Intercessors with Bolt rifles, which units are you actually referring to that are "units that people already take" that get buffed so much by this special rule?

 

About Scouts returning to 4+/4+ .. hell no. It was dumb before and I'm glad it's gone. GW just needs to realise how strong Infiltration is and point them accordingly and things would be fine. Nerfing one of the few actually good units because they are better than an alternative is stupid when the Codex overall isn't exactly in a good place. Better buff the lacking units instead.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#58
Lemondish

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Don’t expect an FAQ on this I’m afraid (more sad actually but meh)


Why not? This whole rule is still a beta one. This is exactly the type of feedback we should provide. Clarification on what it covers while providing feedback on its efficacy.

I find it to be a good rule, but unfortunately it leaves auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, and stalker bolt rifles in the dust.
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#59
Dracos

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Mainly because I believe the variables required to deal with those weapons will be handled in another forum. Probably not until there is a new Codex. My opinion is this rule is prepping us for a new round of Astartes Codices.


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#60
Halfpint100

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This is lethal on space wolf guard bikers with storm bolter. Double rapid fire 2 weapons (twin bolter and storm bolted) and the option of a storm shield. That is Ork tier dakka

#61
Lemondish

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Posted this in another thread, but figured it would fit here too. After playing a couple matches (only a couple so far), I've found it opens up some interesting tactical options. My initial fear was that it would encourage a static playstyle, but even with the static bonus it really isn't advisable to stand still for too long when a large part of the game's missions require mobility. Not to mention that part of the value of marines is that they can mix it up in melee. But it's really the missions that want you to be reactive and mobile.
 
Now, I can sit and breathe T1 to better tweak my gameplan rather than just trying to get into rapid fire range asap to get as many shots as I can from every body on the table to avoid losing to attrition. I don't feel like I have to rush forward as fast as possible to maximize the damage my marines can do before they start to take casualties. For marines, you need everybody contributing in some way - even scouts are there for more than just CP generation. My firebase is now more capable right from the start because now I can start to thin a screen from range, jump into transports on T2 and re-position where I'm needed just as my deep strike units drop by, screwing up the opponent's target priority. With proper mobile elements, I feel like the pressure is off to go go go right away. 
 
It may just be all in my mind, but I find this change to be almost...freeing. 
 
Still a little sad that it's leaving auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, and stalker bolt rifles in the dust in comparison to the now more capable bolt rifle. 
 
For clarity, I run mostly Primaris in a 2k list, but managed to try some units outside my collection to try out a few more ideas in one game. The real winners were obviously the Intercessors, but the Redemptor and Repulsor had some noticeable benefit from it as well. I did not run Indomitus Crusaders in either game, so I can't comment on the RF2 stratagem.
 
In the second game when adding in some old marines I played with a squad of Terminators, two units of Sternguard, and some Devastators. All were instant winners. Didn't feel the need to drop the Termies into rapid fire range and charge immediately, so instead I dropped them on an objective in range of actual support from the rest of my forces. The Devastators were heavy bolters and missile heavy for the cherub/hellfire shenanigans which is already pretty strong, but I kind of wished I had the opportunity to try out a few units of tacs with a heavy bolter and a sarge with something slick instead.


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#62
chapter master 454

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One benefit is units like sternguard who get to slam double fire power down range. Now my combo of using them with a rhino primaris can be done WITHOUT a transport to deliver the sternguard. I can do it T1 from 30" away which now means I am free to use the points on something other than a delivery vehicle.

 

The rule change I feel is a welcome idea. It isn't overly powerful but it does add a good layer of power to marines in a clear manner. Being able to double tap at 24" away is very powerful for a basic trooper to be able to do. Don't forget centurions benefit greatly from this, mainly the devastators but still, they can unleash a torrent of firepower now wherever they go. Don't look at the singular here, look at the whole picture and as lemondish points out, it adds options to our gameplan. Instead of NEEDING to run up to our opponents to get max firepower, we can choose how to engage a foe. If they keep distance we can still put out some serious hurt. It may not solve tacticals but to be honest, it is a nod in the right direction for them and helps them keep up just a little. Yes, it makes hurricane boltgun arrays massively powerful on tanks but to be honest those tanks tended to be able to trigger their rapid fire by course of battle (stormravens and crusaders only really just have more option as to who them hose down now really) but don't underestimate the potency of having double tap at 24" is.


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#63
GreyCrow

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This rule is an absolute blessing!

Gives massive flexibility to the units.
Marines are not meant for close range engagements : they don’t have the numbers for serious firepower and taking serious firepower.
Now it gives them some poke down the range and allows them to choose whether to thin the herd down before it comes or engage in a losing numbers fight.

This is a fantastic idea :)
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#64
sfPanzer

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Marines are not meant for close range engagements : they don’t have the numbers for serious firepower and taking serious firepower.

 

That's the problem. They ARE meant for close range engagements. That's their whole point. However they aren't anywhere near good enough for those and special rules like Bolter Discipline should change that instead of moving them even further away from it.


Edited by sfPanzer, 31 January 2019 - 02:18 PM.

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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#65
UnkyHamHam

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Marines are not meant for close range engagements : they don’t have the numbers for serious firepower and taking serious firepower.


That's the problem. They ARE meant for close range engagements. That's their whole point. However they aren't anywhere near good enough for those and special rules like Bolter Discipline should change that instead of moving them even further away from it.

Technically, you're both right. From game design, Crow is correct. As this is the way GW has decided to make them. Fluff wise, you are correct. And I think we all wish you were correct game wise too.
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#66
sfPanzer

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Marines are not meant for close range engagements : they don’t have the numbers for serious firepower and taking serious firepower.


That's the problem. They ARE meant for close range engagements. That's their whole point. However they aren't anywhere near good enough for those and special rules like Bolter Discipline should change that instead of moving them even further away from it.

Technically, you're both right. From game design, Crow is correct. As this is the way GW has decided to make them. Fluff wise, you are correct. And I think we all wish you were correct game wise too.

I'd like to disagree. Lots of Rapid fire weapons, few long ranged weapons, better T and armour than usual gunline armies and lots of different transports and deep striking units tells me they got game-wise designed as such as well. They just aren't good at it.
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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#67
GreyCrow

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The problem is number of bodies.

When going for close range, you need to be able to have enough meatshield to tank your trek.
And then when you get there, you need to have significant amount of dice to still make an impact.

Compare Tacticals to Berserkers for instance. Berserkers can afford to lose bodies AND double punch once they are here.
Ork boys is another example.

Keep in mind that Rapid Fire range means you’re either exposed to get charged or you get the charge off too.

Points for points, Marines will lose at close range even against Guardsmen. Just due to light weight of dice.
130 points brings you 10 Marines or 30 Guards.
At long range, 30 Guards kill 1.7 Marines.
Without double tap, Marines kill 3 Guards.
Let’s say it takes 2 turns for the units to reach Rapid Fire range.
There will be 7 Marines remaining and 24 Guardsmen.
The Guards will kill 2.7 Marines
The Marines will kill 4 Guardsmen
Now you have 4 Marines and 20 Guardsmen.
Shooting and charging, the Guardsmen will kill 3 Marines.
Shooting and charging, the Marines will kill 3.6 Guardsmen
You have 1 Marine left and 16 Guardsmen.

Guardsmen will easily finish the remaining Marine, and even if they don’t, they still win the objective control due to 15 more bodies.

That’s why the double tap is so good, as it allows to thin the herd down from afar, and removing the numerical advantage before it comes to close range :)

Edit : Actually, 30 Guards are only 120 points, so they beat Marines with 8% less points, which is great for them.

That’s why double tap is not only a blessing, it’s actually needed!

It gives us definitive long range advantage, and doesn’t require us to move up, while bigger horde armies will have to.
If people want to reach Rapid Fire range without us moving, it’s giving us even a further advantage because once they are within 12”, then we’re sure to double tap + get the charge.

Edited by GreyCrow, 01 February 2019 - 11:48 PM.

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#68
Slasher956

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Not disagreeing with your points.... just that in your maths hammer you have both the guardsmen & the marines charging ......



#69
Captain Idaho

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Feedback from a recent game - much more fire as expect from vehicles with Storm Bolters (enemy Repulsor) whilst I had 3 Centurions and an Ironclad with Hurricane Bolters.

The Hurricanes really boosted my firepower levels over 12" and made the Ironclad a genuine threat even to vehicles as he could plink off wounds as he advanced. (Helverins don't like Hurricanes)





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