Bolter Drill

[Vorenus]

In case anyone hasn't seen it, there is a new Beta Rule introduced on the Warhammer Community site today.  The rule is entitled "Bolter Discipline."  I think it is quite powerful.

 

 

 

 

Edit:  I accidentally called it "Bolter Drill" not "Bolter Discipline."  My bad.

[Vorenus]

Does this mean that Terminators with combi-bolters are suddenly a good option again?  A squad of five Terminators with combi-bolters will now be putting out 20 shots at up to 24", and 40 shots at up to 12".  

 

Chosen with combi-bolters will also get a ton of shots, but only if they either (a) stand still or (b) get within 12".

 

What do y'all think about this rule?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

What do y'all think about this rule?

 

Endless Cacophony with this will produce giggles. I also love it as a player who uses lots of Rubrics and occasionally runs Iron Warriors horde lists.

 

THINGS SHALL GET LOUD NOW!! :)

[Mekhitar]

It does not increase the number of shots at close range.

 

It only allows you to access the “rapid fire” at 12-24” if you (1) stand still, OR (2) have one of the keywords.

[Vorenus]

OK, I re-read the rule a couple of times.  I think you are correct in your interpretation.  I misinterpreted it before.  So scratch my example of a five-man Terminator squad putting out 40 shots at 12" or less.  They will still get 20 shots at up to 24" , though, so that's not terrible.  Not as powerful as I originally thought.

[Panzer]

It's definitely a great buff for Terminators and backfield Chosen/Chaos Marine squads. Quite nice for Bikes as objective grabbing unit as well since they too can keep moving while double tapping at 24" although I feel like Bike units are a bit too small so they still lack the required punch (Deathwatch Bikes should be pretty strong now though).

[FirstSonofHorus]

I feel like with All is Dust, this should apply to Rubrics at all times too. Good change though.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

It's definitely a great buff for Terminators and backfield Chosen/Chaos Marine squads. Quite nice for Bikes as objective grabbing unit as well since they too can keep moving while double tapping at 24" although I feel like Bike units are a bit too small so they still lack the required punch (Deathwatch Bikes should be pretty strong now though).

It allows very safe deep strikes for Terminator squads that are kitted to deal with infantry, and they can then move up the board, killing and drawing fire as they go. It might also allow cheapo Chosen to ditch transports, depending on how you're planning to deploy them.

 

Chaos Bikes are 9-man squads. That's a lotta dakka. 40 shots at 24 inches with an extra Combi-Bolter on the Champ (or 38 if he has a Combi-Plasma or something). Plus probably 2 Plasma shots. Slaanesh Bikes can double tap with Vets and Prescience for extreme screen removal.

[Panzer]

 

It's definitely a great buff for Terminators and backfield Chosen/Chaos Marine squads. Quite nice for Bikes as objective grabbing unit as well since they too can keep moving while double tapping at 24" although I feel like Bike units are a bit too small so they still lack the required punch (Deathwatch Bikes should be pretty strong now though).

It allows very safe deep strikes for Terminator squads that are kitted to deal with infantry, and they can then move up the board, killing and drawing fire as they go. It might also allow cheapo Chosen to ditch transports, depending on how you're planning to deploy them.

 

Chaos Bikes are 9-man squads. That's a lotta dakka. 40 shots at 24 inches with an extra Combi-Bolter on the Champ (or 38 if he has a Combi-Plasma or something). Plus probably 2 Plasma shots. Slaanesh Bikes can double tap with Vets and Prescience for extreme screen removal.

 

 

9 man squad are quite big and expensive and draw lots of attention tho. You don't really want that for cheap objective grabbing units and for everythign else I'd say Chosen and Terminators are better if it's just about shooting Bolter. Too bad you can't advance and shoot the Bolter with Bikes or Renegades would love this buff even more lol

[Closet Skeleton]

My old 2000 power armour horde list is 1826 now, might be worth trying again if only for a laugh. 2 heavy weapon chaos space marine squads are certainly more attractive now.

[Cheex]

So, I've mentioned this elsewhere online but thought I might bring it up here as well.

 

I like the concept of the rule; it gives Marines the weight of fire that they need to compete. However, it only encourages (non-Terminator and non-Biker) Marines to stand still - and if they need to move for any reason (say, to capture objectives - which is what Tactical-type Marines are for), they're stuck in the same boat they were in before.

 

And as far as Loyalists go, there's still no compelling reason to take Tacticals/Intercessors over Scouts. For CSM (especially after CA18), we do have a good reason to take CSM over Cultists, though.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

It's definitely a great buff for Terminators and backfield Chosen/Chaos Marine squads. Quite nice for Bikes as objective grabbing unit as well since they too can keep moving while double tapping at 24" although I feel like Bike units are a bit too small so they still lack the required punch (Deathwatch Bikes should be pretty strong now though).

It allows very safe deep strikes for Terminator squads that are kitted to deal with infantry, and they can then move up the board, killing and drawing fire as they go. It might also allow cheapo Chosen to ditch transports, depending on how you're planning to deploy them.

 

Chaos Bikes are 9-man squads. That's a lotta dakka. 40 shots at 24 inches with an extra Combi-Bolter on the Champ (or 38 if he has a Combi-Plasma or something). Plus probably 2 Plasma shots. Slaanesh Bikes can double tap with Vets and Prescience for extreme screen removal.

 

 

9 man squad are quite big and expensive and draw lots of attention tho. You don't really want that for cheap objective grabbing units and for everythign else I'd say Chosen and Terminators are better if it's just about shooting Bolter. Too bad you can't advance and shoot the Bolter with Bikes or Renegades would love this buff even more lol

 

Expensive? WITH a Combi-Bolter and a Chainsword, they're 23 points (2pt price drop in CA2018). That's 12.5 points per wound. Cheaper than regular CSM, who are 13,  or Chosen/Terminators, who are 14 before weapons.

 

With 2 Plasma Guns and a Combi-Bolter on the Champ, they are 231.

 

18 CSM with bolters, 2 Plasma Guns and a similar Champ are 258, and they don't have Chainswords or T5. They are also slower, more vulnerable to morale, and can't benefit from the new rule unless they stand still.

 

Other than compulsory troops for objective holding (which IS important), the Bikes win.

 

2x5 Chosen with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords are 160, but have only half the wounds, lower toughness, and lower mobility. To get to the same wound count, you get significantly more expensive and the additional firepower that comes with that is of lower value because they can't move.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

So, I've mentioned this elsewhere online but thought I might bring it up here as well.

 

I like the concept of the rule; it gives Marines the weight of fire that they need to compete. However, it only encourages (non-Terminator and non-Biker) Marines to stand still - and if they need to move for any reason (say, to capture objectives - which is what Tactical-type Marines are for), they're stuck in the same boat they were in before.

 

And as far as Loyalists go, there's still no compelling reason to take Tacticals/Intercessors over Scouts. For CSM (especially after CA18), we do have a good reason to take CSM over Cultists, though.

Intercessors have a 30 inch range and -1AP. They can fire on a good chunk of the table while being safer from charges and still taking up lots of room in your own deployment zone. Many missions also no longer have alternating deployment, reducing the necessity of Infiltrate. Then there's the durability. 

 

Against Orks and Genestealers, that durability matters because they can reach you no matter what and don't really care about attempts to push them back.

 

Certain Chapters (Raven Guard, Crimson Fists, etc.) can supplement or enhance their performance in small units and/or help with forward deployment to a degree.

 

Scouts are still quite effective, but they're not as compulsory as they used to be.

[Scourged]

So, I did some math, for fun. 5 CSM with a heavy bolter is the same cost as 15 cultists. When beyond 12" against Marines, that CSM squad now does almost double the damage the cultists will. If the cultists get within 12" to double-tap, they only do 7% more damage... and that assumes all 15 survive. As soon as one cultist dies, the damage output becomes equal. If we switch to GEQ, the two squads are identical outside of 12", with the cultists obviously doing better up close. 

 

So when you factor in better armor and being able to camp cover (and also Alpha Legion, when appropriate), CSM are better objective campers - to me at least. For a  squad of dudes to charge of the field and get stuck in it? Stick with the chaff. 

 

So does this change make CSM awesome? No. Not at all. But does it make them worth considering as a troop choice? Yeah, kinda. Having small squads with heavies camp the backfield while a giant horde of cultists is thrown into the meat grinder? Well, that's thematic enough for me, so I'll take it. 

[ChazSexington]

I'm intrigued by 20 CSMs with bolters at this point, decked out Cultist bomb style. Pity about morale though, as I play Alpha Legion.

 

 

So, I did some math, for fun. 5 CSM with a heavy bolter is the same cost as 15 cultists. When beyond 12" against Marines, that CSM squad now does almost double the damage the cultists will. If the cultists get within 12" to double-tap, they only do 7% more damage... and that assumes all 15 survive. As soon as one cultist dies, the damage output becomes equal. If we switch to GEQ, the two squads are identical outside of 12", with the cultists obviously doing better up close. 

 

So when you factor in better armor and being able to camp cover (and also Alpha Legion, when appropriate), CSM are better objective campers - to me at least. For a  squad of dudes to charge of the field and get stuck in it? Stick with the chaff. 

 

So does this change make CSM awesome? No. Not at all. But does it make them worth considering as a troop choice? Yeah, kinda. Having small squads with heavies camp the backfield while a giant horde of cultists is thrown into the meat grinder? Well, that's thematic enough for me, so I'll take it. 

 

 

Dunno if you included it, but a HB doesn't get bolter drill as it's not a Rapid Fire weapon.

[Scourged]

Yeah, I included that. I factored for the heavy Bolter being unchanged. I'm realizing now, to that two extra points gets you two extra shots if you upgrade to a Combi on the champion.

[Trevak Dal]

I hope they don't backstep this and give it to non Astartes (sisters, guard, etc)

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Heavy Bolters aren't rapid fire.

[Doom Herald]

Does this mean that Terminators with combi-bolters are suddenly a good option again? A squad of five Terminators with combi-bolters will now be putting out 20 shots at up to 24", and 40 shots at up to 12".

 

Chosen with combi-bolters will also get a ton of shots, but only if they either (a) stand still or (b) get within 12".

 

What do y'all think about this rule?

It's not double shots on top of the normal double shots for rapid fire. It says it replaces the normal rules for rapid fire, it's not in addition.

 

 

I do like that it makes CSM troops more valuable since this benefit isn't granted to cultists. The fact that bikes always get it seems too much to me though. I think they should make CSM troops and tac marines always have it in place of bikes. It would make them more viable as troops. Also, it would be nice to see FALLEN gain the ADEPTUS ASTARTES and HERETIC ASTARTES keywords so that they would benefit as well and also become usable in a dettachment that is not pure FALLEN.

[ChazSexington]

 

18 CSM with bolters, 2 Plasma Guns and a similar Champ are 258, and they don't have Chainswords or T5. They are also slower, more vulnerable to morale, and can't benefit from the new rule unless they stand still.

 

They don't need to stand still? Their target needs to be either within 12" or they have to stand still. The rule says "if any of the following apply."

 

Edit: My fault, you're right, I misread it.

[Lord Raven 19]

 

18 CSM with bolters, 2 Plasma Guns and a similar Champ are 258, and they don't have Chainswords or T5. They are also slower, more vulnerable to morale, and can't benefit from the new rule unless they stand still.

 

They don't need to stand still? Their target needs to be either within 12" or they have to stand still. The rule says "if any of the following apply."

 

Edit: My fault, you're right, I misread it.

You were correct first time, if any of the following apply:

 

within half range

if stayed still

if one of the specified units

 

double shots

raven guard intercessors look nice as a gunline once more.

and that crimson fists relic bolt rifle (36" RF2 S5 AP-2 D2) assuming it counts (named Duty's Burden)

edit: it counts

[Panzer]

Alpha Legion Chosen with Combi-Bolters will be great objective campers. More resilient than other Legion units due the -1 to-hit and get 4 shots per model at 24" when stationary. Make them Slaanesh to turn it up to 8 shots per model at 24" and/or give them additional resilience via Delightful Agonies (you could also use Terminators instead but that would be quite a bit more expensive). ;)

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

18 CSM with bolters, 2 Plasma Guns and a similar Champ are 258, and they don't have Chainswords or T5. They are also slower, more vulnerable to morale, and can't benefit from the new rule unless they stand still.

They don't need to stand still? Their target needs to be either within 12" or they have to stand still. The rule says "if any of the following apply."

 

Edit: My fault, you're right, I misread it.

You were correct first time, if any of the following apply:

 

within half range

if stayed still

if one of the specified units

 

double shots

raven guard intercessors look nice as a gunline once more.

and that crimson fists relic bolt rifle (36" RF2 S5 AP-2 D2) assuming it counts (named Duty's Burden)

edit: it counts

 

 

Correct. I was referring to the "stayed still" rule specifically.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Alpha Legion Chosen with Combi-Bolters will be great objective campers. More resilient than other Legion units due the -1 to-hit and get 4 shots per model at 24" when stationary. Make them Slaanesh to turn it up to 8 shots per model at 24" and/or give them additional resilience via Delightful Agonies (you could also use Terminators instead but that would be quite a bit more expensive).

 

Yeah. The entire Alpha Legion backfield will benefit from this. Send the Cultists forward, camp with CSM, Chosen, etc.

 

As a note, Heavy Bolter and/or Autocannon Havocs might benefit from going to a full 10 men now because the extra regular Bolter fire will help against their preferred targets even more than it used to.

 

This also allows CSM to be used in a simple line abreast formation if not moving, to make a decent screen, and no matter where the opponent charges, they'll still face all the bolters on Rapid Fire because of the extra range.

[RolandTHTG]

 

I do like that it makes CSM troops more valuable since this benefit isn't granted to cultists. The fact that bikes always get it seems too much to me though. I think they should make CSM troops and tac marines always have it in place of bikes. It would make them more viable as troops. Also, it would be nice to see FALLEN gain the ADEPTUS ASTARTES and HERETIC ASTARTES keywords so that they would benefit as well and also become usable in a dettachment that is not pure FALLEN.

 

 

Honestly, bikes needed something too, my white scars haven't even seen the battlefield in 8th edition.  I do agree that Fallen should also have the rule, especially as their other rules incentivize camping.