Ironclad Dreadnoughts

[Captain Idaho]

With the release of Chapter Approved and it's points drops and new missions, plus the changes recently (Beta Bolters I'm looking at you), is it perhaps the time to revisit this unit?

 

I love Dreads and always have. I AM biased but I do want to make them work as well.

 

The Ironclad has a Toughness of 8 which is substantial and doesn't degrade, but is slow and close ranged. However it can now fire Hurricane Bolters at full effect up to 24" which makes up a little as 12 more shots contributes nicely.

 

A Chainfist is oddly cheaper than the Seismic Hammer yet performs better thanks to D4 and no modifier.

 

Now, in an expensive Storm Raven it is able to cross the table quickly enough but what about marching? It can contribute to shooting infantry and if your list has other stuff it is likely to survive long enough to make it close to something.

 

I was thinking of a Contemptor Ironclad tag team.

 

Oh and Assault Launchers for a 4+ D3 mortal wounds sounds like a no brainer for 5pts.

 

What do people think?

[Panzer]

I'm not sure what exactly its loadout is since I never played vanilla Marines but if an opponent would tell me this Dreadnought has T8 and only 6 Bolter as his only ranged weapon together with his mean melee weapon I'd probably ignore him for the most part and focus my anti-tank on other targets like transports, predators and so on. Especially if I'm not playing an army with S9+ anti-tank since with S8 anti-tank such a Dreadnought would be significantly harder to remove than most other targets while apparently being a smaller threat.

[Cruor Vault]

The Beta Bolter rules are points in it's favor, but I think it really needs to have a 2+ save to put it in the same bracket as other dreads.

 

As most anti-tank weapons are in the S9+ range the extra toughness doesn't do much for it. 

 

For 18 points more, the Redemptor has:

• 18x S5 -1 shots vs 12x S4 -0 shots
• S14 D6 damage melee vs S12 4D melee
• 8" movement vs 6"movement
• W13 vs W8

That's a LOT for the price of a single Intercessor!  Even with the penalty to hit, a Redemptor is still hitting 9 times with a Heavy Bolter equivalent vs 8 times with Boltguns, and that's not even counting the 8 shots from the Redemptor's Storm Bolters. 

 

Many arguments also revolve around the degrading bracket on the Redemptor, but given that the two units are virtually identical defensively I would think the option that can take more damage before being destroyed would always be better.  Even if that option was not functioning at peak efficiency at all times.

[Captain Idaho]

I would dispute T8 isn't useful. The 1st reply demonstrates why the T8 is actually useful.

 

If an opponent wants to ignore the Ironclad in favour of other vehicles then it'll get close enough to charge. Unless it's really being said that an opponent can wipe out an entire Marine list in 2 turns. Which mostly can't happen outside the most skewed lists anyway.

 

Next is whether T8 is worth anything. So Knights aren't difficult to damage because of their T8?

 

T8 is great. S4 only wounds on a 6 which with spamming hordes is excellent.

 

Missile Launchers are wounding on a 4+. Autocannons and S7 spam wound on 5s.

 

I don't think the defensive capacity of Redemptors and Ironclads are virtually identical.

 

Redemptors seem okay but they're more expensive and aren't as tough. Extra wounds are nice of course but like Primaris, the Ironclad is more offensive for less staying power. Being charged by an Ironclad is likely more damaging. Even if that Ironclad is on 1 wound whereas if the Redemptor suffers 7 wounds it is even less effective.

[Panzer]

T8 definitely matters. Not everyone has Lascannons. T'au for example mostly rely on Fusion Blaster which are S8 and other S7/8 spam in form of Missile Pods and Ion weaponry.

And as Captain Idaho already said the always present Autocannons would wound T8 only on 5+ as well.

Also Thunderhammers in most cases will wound him only on 4+ instead of 3+ and other Dreadnoughts would wound it only on 3+ instead of 2+ so it would make a difference even in melee.

 

If T8 wouldn't make a difference Knights wouldn't be nearly as much a problem and Repulsors would die as quickly as Predators.

[Captain Idaho]

Toughness 8 can go to Toughness 9 easily enough with Might of Heroes which is delicious.

[Lemondish]

I had no idea it was that expensive. Must be entirely in the D4 fist and the T8, which is awesome but man that seems expensive for what it brings. I feel I may not be valuing its melee role enough - perhaps worth a try if I add one to my collection.

[Captain Idaho]

137pts for a T8 model, Hurricane Bolters and Chainfist well as Assault Launchers ain't too bad but I think it is best in an army with other heavy distractions also.

 

Like the Contemptor.

 

Or perhaps alongside a Redemptor ;)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Don't forget it can also mount two Hunter Killers. People rarely expect anti-tank guns on a close assault walker.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I was considering that.

 

It bumps the points up to 149pts for Hurricane Bolters and Chainfist with Assault Launchers, but it could be worth it anyway for the extra shots.

[Cruor Vault]

Don't forget it can also mount two Hunter Killers. People rarely expect anti-tank guns on a close assault walker.

 

At 12pts on a BS3+ platform that's almost certainly going to be moving every turn I'm not sure they'd be worth it.

[Captain Idaho]

I think I concur with that. Hitting on a 4+ is just terrible,especially got 1 shot weapons.

[Panzer]

It would also draw a bigger target on its head which isn't exactly something a melee dread would want. ^^

[Iron Father Ferrum]

-= Looks around =- Why is everyone wearing blue? I guess "use Machine Empathy" isn't a good reply, eh?

[Prot]

I still like the ironclad a lot, but wouldn’t use missiles personally because it should always be on the move.... with Tiggy behind with that -1 or might of heroes.... then the Wisdom kicks in as it joins Vanguard in close combat and that’s a lot of potential damage, not to mention Beta Bolters.

 

I personally think it’s under used but if we get a Codex update with deep striking Strat, this is a great candidate.

[jonjacob]

I was thinking on dropping a dreadnuaght in battle to support my victrix guards advance when utilizing drop pods and a stormraven.

 

But I'm a little unsure since the dread receives no benefit from the Victrix guard rules.

[zero88]

My issue is I think the hurricane bolter arm looks stupid, gotta go all out and take two Melee arms. One thing for survivability which people don't consider is the smoke launchers which I don't ever get used on other dreads because they usually have something to shoot at range. Since the ironclad is so short ranged you will probably always be advancing and popping smoke on turn one. T8 and a -1 to hit can be remarkably resilient. After that it can cause major headaches, 2 heavy flamers are fantastic, and (as someone else said) if you took the pair of HK missiles that can really catch someone off guard