Guardian Newspaper covers 40k

[Halandaar]

More exposure brings scrutiny and the last thing gamers need is more scrutiny. The author of the article already called the game fascist because he’s a moron who doesn’t read the lore. The hobby doesn’t need a bunch of blue check marks and Pepe’s going to war over it. Those can all stay in their own lane.

 

 

The only thing the article referred to as fascist is the Imperium of Man specifically, which is correct, and suggests he actually does know his way around the lore as opposed to the normal assumption of Space Marines = Humans = Good Guys.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Imperium is a decentralized, essentially feudalist state. De-centralization is antithetical to fascism. That's like eighth grade political science. There a fascist systems on some planets, but its not the universal.

[Panzer]

It's as centralized as can be with the technology in the 40k universe though.

[Marshal Rohr]

That doesn't make a difference.

[Ishagu]

Decentralised feudal government comprised of individual fascist planet states.

[RikuEru]

That doesn't make a difference.

To you.

As in any aspect of the hobby, personal views and opinions differ, influenced by personal experiences.

For example: Isn't the Imperium mindboggingly centralized, with the high Lords overlooking EVERYTHING (potentially)? Of course we know that is not really the truth, because bureaucracy slows down the huge behemoth of all the imperial institutions and organizations, with reports taking decades and centuries to reach the right bureaus on Terra, etc.

 

But depending on the direction you look at from (for example: An outsider, that has his first encounter through such an article - who compares real world standards to this fictional universe) the Imperium !CAN! be viewed as absolutely fascist in !SOME! aspects.

 

Also even your more elaborate description doesn't encompass the bureaucratic nightmare entirely either. And I think no short description that could fit into a single sentence within this regular newspaper (online) article could.

[Canadian_F_H]

 

 

“Imagine if Disney were founded by a bunch of people who had been primarily inspired by heavy metal album covers,”

 

I legit LOL'd at that. Well said.

My new go to phrase! Thanks.

[Marshal Rohr]

Political systems might not fit soundbites, but it reflects badly on us as gamers to say we play make believe with the real life bad guys/dark side. They need to be more circumspect in how they describe the game or you will inevitably spark the rage of the twitter hate machine. Games Workshop can't stand that kind of scrutiny. The hobby has some aesthetics of fascism, the same way hippies wore Wehrmacht jackets and punk rockers wear jackboots and goths wear floor length leather jackets. It is wrong to try and ascribe any kind of modern conception of politics to it because our modern conception of politics doesn't have to contend with things like xenocidal aliens, transhumans, or extradimensional entities that can corrupt societies like a virus.

[RikuEru]

Political systems might not fit soundbites, but it reflects badly on us as gamers to say we play make believe with the real life bad guys/dark side. They need to be more circumspect in how they describe the game or you will inevitably spark the rage of the twitter hate machine. Games Workshop can't stand that kind of scrutiny.

With Peta already trying to mock GW's use of fur, I think such dramas will lead to nothing. Also there is no glory, clout, praise, pity, martyrdom or MONEY (like in the videogame/mefia sphere) to be won in this, so Twitter-Activists will not care. Never. Our hobby is small enough to be insignificant and too tightly knit to be exploitable (i.e.: Everyone knows who to trust regarding news).

 

And soft little white lies will not blow over well either, if people go deeper into the subject. Also it would feel kinda belittling, to the readers and the hobby/universe.

[Marshal Rohr]

Feminist40k already wrote an article about fascism and imperial players. I’m just saying there is a danger to letting people who don’t know anything be the ones describing the hobby to outsiders.

[Halandaar]

It seems borderline hysterical to me to be making a such a big deal out of the use of the word fascist to describe a violently xenophobic, ultra repressive regime the virus bombs it's own citizenry. It's certainly not an unreasonable descriptor in that context, regardless of whether or not "eight grade political science" says that it's strictly correct. Is the description of one of the factions as fascist really going to colour the opinion of non-players towards the game and it's fans? Really?

 

I mean, we wouldn't think of fans of Game of Thrones as sadistic serial rapists, and yet that description is perfectly accurate for some elements of the show.

[Marshal Rohr]

You're certainly free to feel that way. You 100% wrong about the idiots we exist alongside in our current era, but that's on you. The xenos are just as xenophobic. Xenophobia is a moral failure to us but it isn't unreasonable against the Tyranids, or the Eldar, or the Orks. Its Ultra-repressive because when you give people freedom, you weaken the veil between reality and monsters come out and kill everyone. Literally giving money to the poor, a virtue to us, gives evil monster gods more power.

[Andurin Marvak]

I mean technically doing anything at all besides being annihilated and never feeling emotions again gives the Evil Monster Gods more power.

[N1SB]

These are actually salient points to a broader issue.

Our hobby is small enough to be insignificant and too tightly knit to be exploitable (i.e.: Everyone knows who to trust regarding news).

Yeah, fair point, The Hobby is small enough to fly under the radar, for now. GW's trying to grow it, which I think is a positive thing, but I actually can see an argument against it. It's not just by the game itself, it's from trying to do something in popular media with the Warhammer IP. That's what I think the expansion of Warhammer Studios is part of, because GW's leadership mentioned this:

To justify the costs of animation, live action and more, regardless of whether GW does this stuff in-house (as it's already doing with a new Space Marine animated series) or with film studios, it will be expected to reach a broader audience than just us. I dunno, I'm not an expert (although I know for a fact Mark Bedford from FW came from a special effects background in either TV or film, if you guys see him in the new HH Weekender, maybe you could talk to him about Warhammer Studios! He's a super-cool guy that knows WAY more than people give him credit for IMHO).

In fact, I reckon you could point out Brian Blessed, David Tennant and Billie Piper performing on Warhammer projects already invited this.

Even before this, GW was getting the spotlight (whether we, or GW itself, wants it or not) anyway! It just entered the FTSE, the top rated stocks on the UK exchange, thus a wider population are becoming aware of it. That's not GW's fault, it's just what happens in life! GW doesn't try to grab headlines in mainstream media for GW itself (which I found commendable, I actually prefer businesses to keep their heads down and do their work, and to be clear that's a separate activity than promoting Warhammer, which it does quite well).

This Pandora's Box has been opened...not necessarily by GW, just by some circumstance. I too was skeptical, but then the mere fact that The Guardian published an article suggests GW is there now. This is a case of Ready Or Not, Here It Comes.

Y'know, it might be time GW has a good PR manager, not sure if it does yet. I think it's all going through their marketing dept and straight to the CEO's office until now. GW has success. It deserves its success. Even we benefit from its success. But success draws stories that are going to be written anyway, and GW's PR's job isn't to contain or spin them...it's to set the record straight. I think Warhammer and grimdark and the lore can be probably be misunderstood.

+++

Also, from professional experience, I put to you this: never underestimate how motivated people can be to demonstrate their outrage online at a company. I know you may think scrutiny comes in the form of newspaper editorials (that people don't really read anymore lol), but it'll instead be some disgruntled YouTuber who relies on clickbait to monetise his channel. And it won't be 1, it'll be dozens. This is the New Normal.

None of this is to suggest GW should change The Hobby. I actually really liked how they defused the PETA complaint with humour, the most potent of weapons. But that that is, is.

[Arkangilos]

 

That doesn't make a difference.

To you.

As in any aspect of the hobby, personal views and opinions differ, influenced by personal experiences.

For example: Isn't the Imperium mindboggingly centralized, with the high Lords overlooking EVERYTHING (potentially)? Of course we know that is not really the truth, because bureaucracy slows down the huge behemoth of all the imperial institutions and organizations, with reports taking decades and centuries to reach the right bureaus on Terra, etc.

 

But depending on the direction you look at from (for example: An outsider, that has his first encounter through such an article - who compares real world standards to this fictional universe) the Imperium !CAN! be viewed as absolutely fascist in !SOME! aspects.

 

Also even your more elaborate description doesn't encompass the bureaucratic nightmare entirely either. And I think no short description that could fit into a single sentence within this regular newspaper (online) article could.

That’s like saying the Byzantine empire is fascist. There is nothing fascist about the Imperium. Everything you see that they do can be dated back before the coming of Fascism. It’s medeical. Fascism is not medeival.

 

I used to think the Imperium to be like the Holy Roman Empire, but it’s actually the Byzantine Empire.

 

We can’t keep going around accusing things of being fascist just because they are totalitarian. It’s stupid, it’s dishonest, and it leads to the degradation of words that do actually mean things. It’s like calling people Nazi’s when they clearly aren’t.

[N1SB]

Oh, Brothers, before I forget, the British use and the American use of the word "fascist" is a little different.

 

The British use of the term really IS just along the lines of "authoritarian".  For example, back in the UK, I literally saw a documentary about Judge Dredd (that was very much in favour of the character, a celebration of how he's the most popular UK comic character) where someone, who obviously likes Judge Dredd, describe him as "he's a fascist, but he's a funny fascist."  His point was he's a totalitarian and his comics is a satire about power.

 

The American usage of the term DOES lean towards "Nazism" and it's pretty much an attack.

 

Now, the Guardian writer is British, but perhaps he might've chosen his words more carefully as he is a writer by profession after all, especially since the article is posted online for the whole world to see, thus it's not limited to one country's audience.  Based on your reactions here, maybe he or his editor should've changed how he described the Imperium, fair points.  I don't disagree with you guys.

 

Here's what fascinates me.  We took issue with "middle-class" and "fascist", but no one really mentioned how he describes Warhammer as "heroin".  Well, I guess we're all in agreement about our addiction at least!

[Arkhanist]

 

Here's what fascinates me.  We took issue with "middle-class" and "fascist", but no one really mentioned how he describes Warhammer as "heroin".  Well, I guess we're all in agreement about our addiction at least!

 

Oh, he's totally wrong there. Everyone knows we're addicted to plastic crack.

[Gederas]

Oh, Brothers, before I forget, the British use and the American use of the word "fascist" is a little different.

 

The British use of the term really IS just along the lines of "authoritarian".  For example, back in the UK, I literally saw a documentary about Judge Dredd (that was very much in favour of the character, a celebration of how he's the most popular UK comic character) where someone, who obviously likes Judge Dredd, describe him as "he's a fascist, but he's a funny fascist."  His point was he's a totalitarian and his comics is a satire about power.

 

The American usage of the term DOES lean towards "Nazism" and it's pretty much an attack.

 

Now, the Guardian writer is British, but perhaps he might've chosen his words more carefully as he is a writer by profession after all, especially since the article is posted online for the whole world to see, thus it's not limited to one country's audience.  Based on your reactions here, maybe he or his editor should've changed how he described the Imperium, fair points.  I don't disagree with you guys.

 

Here's what fascinates me.  We took issue with "middle-class" and "fascist", but no one really mentioned how he describes Warhammer as "heroin".  Well, I guess we're all in agreement about our addiction at least!

In regards to the fascism thing, I think it's because, speaking as an American here, the United States has a VERY dim view on fascism due to the whole issue during the early-mid 20th century that it caused. Yes, the  way fascist is used in the US connotates very, very negative things due to it, yeah essentially fascism is a synonym for "Nazism" in the US. Currently, the big issue with it is that for some unknown reason fascism is coming back in the United States of all places, and people don't like that at all (not going to get into the politics of it, but... yeah).

 

And I mean.... No one's arguing the heroin point because heroin is probably cheaper than 40k :lol: It's DEFINITELY a cheaper habit than 30k :lol:

[Halandaar]

I suppose when I step back, it's pretty funny.

 

An article in a mainstream newspaper that is, overall, quite positive and complimentary about our hobby, which avoids stereotyping tabletop gamers as an insular and unwelcoming crowd is being decried by tabletop gamers because an outsider used the wrong word to describe one of its fictional factions.

[Panzer]

 

Here's what fascinates me.  We took issue with "middle-class" and "fascist", but no one really mentioned how he describes Warhammer as "heroin".  Well, I guess we're all in agreement about our addiction at least!

 

Damn you're right actually! It's crack, not heroin! Lets start a :cuss storm! :D

I suppose when I step back, it's pretty funny.

 

An article in a mainstream newspaper that is, overall, quite positive and complimentary about our hobby, which avoids stereotyping tabletop gamers as an insular and unwelcoming crowd is being decried by tabletop gamers because an outsider used the wrong word to describe one of its fictional factions.

 

Especially when you consider that those tabletop gamers don't even completely agree with eachother that it's the wrong word after all. :P

[Bryan Blaire]

Guys, this is meant in a friendly way, really need to end the real world discussion of the political stripe (such as the current state of a real political system). It’s stirs up the Mod discussion on whether a thread should just be locked or immolated out of existence completely.

 

Debate word use and how it affects the hobby all you want, but stay way away from the other stuff...

[Marshal Rohr]

I guess Halandaar doesn't remember when the New York Times and Washington Post were writing about the God Emperor. Figures. Or when facebook activists wanted to ban gaming clubs on some community college campus because of the connection. It reflect negatively on the Hobby.

[Halandaar]

So you're saying that people on the internet like to overreact to anything, regardless of how trivial? Who would have known.

 

I'm not convinced pre-emptively overreacting on behalf of the latest generation of "heavy metal is devil worship" people is the solution.

[Marshal Rohr]

Look I hate those people, too. But never give a thief a reason to steal, you know?

[Panzer]

I guess Halandaar doesn't remember when the New York Times and Washington Post were writing about the God Emperor. Figures. Or when facebook activists wanted to ban gaming clubs on some community college campus because of the connection. It reflect negatively on the Hobby.

 

Yeah and basically nothing changed and people forgot about those things real quick. If anything it proves that media trying to badmouth the hobby don't actually succeed longterm anyway. ^^