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Lore query: Limits on the 'operational' time of Dreadnought?

back ground lore fluff dreadnoughts

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#1
firestorm40k

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Hi, I have a question regarding the interred occupants of Dreadnoughts.  Working on the premise that the sarcophagi that Dreadnoughts house effectively work like ‘life support systems’ for very, very injured Astartes; and that between operational period, they are left dormant, so the Marine ‘driving’ it can rest; is there any stated fluff about the maximum length of time a Dreadnought can be operational, before the interred Marine within it is ‘damaged’?  (If that makes sense).

 

I know that there are Dreadnoughts housing Astartes who are almost (or are) as old as the time of the Crusade/Heresy, but from what I remember reading, they’ll go centuries between being awakened to fight.

 

I’m just trying to see if anything has ever been written about a Dreadnought having an extended period of operation, and whether this caused harm to the already near-dead Marine within.

 

Thanks! :)


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#2
Gederas

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From the lore, it's unstated, and the only dreadnoughts that are explicitly said actually harm the occupants with extended use while active are the new Redemptor dreadnoughts because they were made by the AdMech who don't view people as important.

 

So, going by this, they can probably be active permanently after being interred, they just aren't because the marines respect their heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice.


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#3
PeteySödes

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In the Space Wolves lore, Bjorn who is the oldest "living" astartes is said to be more and more distant and aloof with each awakening. I think various sources state that its like being harder and harder to wake from a dream.

 

My interpretation is that while physically they could be maintained indefinately, the mental strain is what the issue is. This also is taking into account what Gederas said too with Redemptors and even Leviathans being more prone to burn out the interred.


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#4
Arkangilos

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Well they do say that the dreadnaughts do start going crazy after a time, which is why they make them sleep as often as they can.
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#5
Leif Bearclaw

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From the lore, it's unstated, and the only dreadnoughts that are explicitly said actually harm the occupants with extended use while active are the new Redemptor dreadnoughts because they were made by the AdMech who don't view people as important.

 

So, going by this, they can probably be active permanently after being interred, they just aren't because the marines respect their heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice.

Going from memory, the longer a regular Dread is active, the less lucid the pilot gets. But the degree and speed of the confusion varies on an individual basis (plus of course, the speed of plot).

 

Although it's not only Redemptors that burn out the pilots. They nicked that bit of fluff from the Leviathan.


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#6
Gederas

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From the lore, it's unstated, and the only dreadnoughts that are explicitly said actually harm the occupants with extended use while active are the new Redemptor dreadnoughts because they were made by the AdMech who don't view people as important.

 

So, going by this, they can probably be active permanently after being interred, they just aren't because the marines respect their heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice.

Going from memory, the longer a regular Dread is active, the less lucid the pilot gets. But the degree and speed of the confusion varies on an individual basis (plus of course, the speed of plot).

 

Although it's not only Redemptors that burn out the pilots. They nicked that bit of fluff from the Leviathan.

Did they? All the lore I've found for Leviathans makes the pilots go utterly insane due to the stress the Leviathan puts on them, no mention of the dreadnought actually killing the pilot.


Edited by Gederas, 23 January 2019 - 04:17 PM.


#7
Leif Bearclaw

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Did they? All the lore I've found for Leviathans makes the pilots go utterly insane due to the stress the Leviathan puts on them, no mention of the dreadnought actually killing the pilot.

 

Nope, it's definitely lethal.

 

From HH VI page 236

 

"They place an onerous and ultimately lethal strain on their occupants, the Leviathan's incumbent burning brightly but briefly in their second life"

 

The 40k fluff is a little different, talking about the 'edge of madness' and the more euphemistic 'final dissolution' of the pilot. From the old 40k Relic Leviathan pdf:

 

"The tormented and ravaged minds of those interred within are driven to the edge of madness by the little-understood mechanisms unique to the Leviathan, trapped in gore-soaked dreams of the lost Age of Darkness which haunt the machines themselves, and soon suffer a final dissolution owing to the terrible strain the Leviathan inflicts on those who would dare to master it."


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#8
firestorm40k

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Thanks all for your replies, very helpful :)   So, the strain of operating the Dreadnought is upon the 'pilot's mind, rather than their body.  Have there been any examples from background/stories/novels of Dreads operating on extended fronts and being affected by it?  Thinking of something like the Rynn's World incident, or the battle for Baal against Tyranids.


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#9
sfPanzer

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The battle during Devastation of Baal is still perfectly fine within the limits of a Dreadnoughts operational time I'd say. It's not like they were fighting for months or something. It was just a very brutal fight without any chance to take breaks or something. Just one endless horde of Tyranid bodies to slay until the rift opened which scattered huge parts of the fleet through the galaxy, killed the hive mind for a while leaving the Tyranids more or less defenseless and also brought the Khorne daemons which killed all the Tyranids on one of the two moons. ;)


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#10
Brother Adelard

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Betrayer talks a little about how much sleep one Contemptor needed, at first he could go on and on, later he could stay active for a year but would then need a year's sleep to compensate.
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#11
Ishagu

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I think the mind is the weakness. The effect on a human mind separated from natural stimulus and kept alive for hundreds or thousands of years? Can't be good
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#12
chapter master 454

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I thought this was the reason they became harder to wake to be honest. Though seriously from what I gather they just lose track of where they are really. Still able to give good advice but can't exactly be trusted to know who they are fighting other than knowing not to attack those who are allies, but generally dreadnoughts tend to get destroyed before they get that far due to I believe some lore stating they are often used like a spearhead.

 

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#13
Brother Lunkhead

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Thanks all for your replies, very helpful smile.png   So, the strain of operating the Dreadnought is upon the 'pilot's mind, rather than their body.  Have there been any examples from background/stories/novels of Dreads operating on extended fronts and being affected by it?  Thinking of something like the Rynn's World incident, or the battle for Baal against Tyranids.

 

Not entirely so...… a Space Marine interred in a Dreadnought is constantly in pain. Due to the nature of his interfaces he is not provided with pain buffers, therefore while awake the 'pilot' is not only under great mental strain but great physical stress as well.

 

There is a section in Dan Abnett's Know No Fear that describes the problems faced by a newly interred Space Marine. While this deals with a Contemptor Dreadnought which also exerts more stress on the 'pilot' than a standard Castaferrum Patttern Dreadnought, it's reasonable to assume the analogy still applieshappy.png


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 24 January 2019 - 09:40 PM.

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#14
Iron Father Ferrum

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As a counterpoint, it's long been lore that the Iron Hands do not put their Dreadnoughts in hibernation. They remain awake and lucid, acting as officers in their companies or for the chapter indefinitely with no apparent ill effects. To explain the difference between them and virtually all other Dreadnoughts, I'd point out that Iron Hands actually aspire to Dreadnought-hood, so that indoctrination may act as a sort of mental defense or coping mechanism against the strain of interment.
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#15
chapter master 454

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well then I just had a question because I always wondered.

 

What is the state the marine needs to be in to be interred within a dreadnought?

Because we all know marines can have cybernetics and do so very regularly (heck, iron hands will whole sale get 'em with no need for them despite their arms and legs being functional still) so what would a viable dreadnought pilot "look like"? Because from what I can see, it seems to be a very specific state. One hand DoW2 has Davian Thule become a dreadnought because of lictor poison but I would assume a lot of dreadnought pilots tend to be less...all there, quite literally. That may also be a factor into as to why some feel great pain and why iron hands possibly have an easier time? While most chapters only get cybernetics to help replace a lost arm or leg, the iron hands replace whatever of their body they can with cybernetics with any chance.

 

So two parts there in regards to dreadnoughts with one thought: Maybe Iron Hand dreadnoughts tend to remain more lucid because they have already got through "preparations" for becoming a dreadnought and thus the strain is much less on them? Similar to how creating marines work in that it happens over time, not all at once. I mean, I would assume dreadnought pilots need to be adapted to the dreadnought so not only are you the remains they scraped off the battlefield and in serious pain but some guys want to do FURTHER surgery on you so they can plug you in where as with iron hands possibly by having all those cyber augments they are practically ready to go with little to no actual need to perform any real surgery to put them in.


I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

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#16
Trevak Dal

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Why can't they make dreds that can just be piloted or jacked into without having to be a pseudo corpse?

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#17
sfPanzer

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Because.

Don't think too hard about it. We know that 40k isn't exactly logical.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#18
THUNDERFISTS

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Why can't they make dreds that can just be piloted or jacked into without having to be a pseudo corpse?

 

See: Centurions. 



#19
RandyB

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Why can't they make dreds that can just be piloted or jacked into without having to be a pseudo corpse?


In 1st Ed, they did. Not sure when that changed.

#20
sfPanzer

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Why can't they make dreds that can just be piloted or jacked into without having to be a pseudo corpse?


In 1st Ed, they did. Not sure when that changed.

 

1st edition was barely 40k. The game changed a LOT since 1e and 2e lol


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#21
Brother Lunkhead

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Why can't they make dreds that can just be piloted or jacked into without having to be a pseudo corpse?


In 1st Ed, they did. Not sure when that changed.

 

 

I don't think the Dreadnought sarcophagus can accommodate a whole Space Marine. In order to be interred into a rare Dreadnought chassis the mortally wounded Astartes must be a warrior of note and so grievously damaged that even if his life could be saved he would not be able to return to service and would be totally invalidedcry.gif

 

From what I've read most Space Marines would prefer to die rather than be interred into a Dreadnought chassis. In the old fluff, the White Scars did not use Dreadnoughts at all, seeing interment in one as a living hell.

 

Chris Wraight's very fine audio drama Parting of the Ways https://www.blacklib...e-ways-mp3.html covers the process and views of Dreadnought interment quite nicely yes.gif


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