Blindhamster Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 he says he would beat Fulgrim in the novels too, and i think he would do well, fulgrims big thing is hes fast and gets more attacks due to this... well.. not against the khan he doesnt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Well, primarchs like to talk themselves up...we don't always know if it's true. I think Fulgrim vs. Khan is probably a coin-toss But I do think Khan won't fare poorly against Fulgrim for a couple of reasons: 1. Khan only fought Mortarion to a draw, sure...but it's heavily implied that Fulgrim would have lost to Ferrus on Istvaan had the Laeran blade not intervened. Ferrus isn't really known as a combat monster either. 2. Fulgrim is like a blown up version of Lucius in combat (especially toward the late Great Crusade). He's extremely arrogant and preening, with almost a pathological tendency to belittle/underestimate his foes. The Khan is a close match in skill, but more serious. 3. I think the Khan and Fulgrim are in the same league of skill based on Sang's comment on them both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 I still like the showing of him in his primarch novel. When you lose your temper so bad the orks start running away, and they never run from a scrap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Then the primarch looked up, and despite the racing furnace around them, a chill descended over every soul. He uttered two words only, his voice suddenly as spare and bleak as the void.‘Pull away.’His sons complied instantly. Even Sejanus and the Luna Wolves, warriors from a Legion that gave no quarter to any foe, withdrew.The Khan advanced then, alone now, his demeanour changed from flamboyance to a night-sere menace. He swung his sword about him languidly, loosening up, cutting the air into whispers, and the orks themselves hung back, bellows snuffed out, bravado shaken into wariness.Then he started to kill. He broke into a run, first heavily, measuring his strokes, then accelerating, faster and harder, until he had moved into that state the Chogorian sages called alakh geh, where the thought alone could kill, where the distance between intention and action was made nothing, and where vengeance became a living thing with both extension and immanence. Under a gathering shroud of elemental vendetta, he killed them all. If he had slain freely before, now the carnage was so complete that it scraped the boundaries of both the divine and the diabolic. Even the war-hardened Legiones Astartes, used to witnessing prodigal exercises of violence, were silenced by it.The xenos never laid a claw on him. The Khan moved now, not with joy, but with dreadful perfection. They faced up to him, and they were swept away. They tried to parry, and he cut them down. They tried to combine, and they were ripped into whimpering slivers. He danced through their numbers and built a corridor of blood around himself, slaying like some spectre of the endless dark, silent as a grave-mark, chill like the night gale of the Ulaav.One of the Luna Wolves, inspired by that vision, tried to join him then, to add his blade to his, and it took Qin Xa to hold him back.‘No, brother,’ the keshig-master warned, quietly. ‘Only observe.’But by then, the Khan himself was almost invisible, hidden behind a curtain of severed flesh and thrown blood, a primordial force burning through the xenos ranks, inviolable and darkly magnificent. For the first time in that entire campaign, the greenskins tried to run, to scramble away from the hungering devil that raced to devour them, but there was no space left, no time left, no hope left. Most were caught as they turned, their backs carved open and their necks broken. The few that managed to get back to the gate cowered under the shadow of that greater monster, the swollen master of their brood-lair, who retreated beyond the portal in a shuffling, shaking display of abject submission. Great bit of writing by Wraight... Not too thrilled by Forge World's rules choices and the artwork (looks like a kohl-eyed TSon with a topknot) but hey, what can you do...can't have everything my way. On the plus side, I like how FW handled Sang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 apparently Anuj had a bunch more rules planned for sanguinius but was talked into toning them down by Neil, they were very concerned about getting branded with OP after Magnus and Russ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Umm...an "OP" Sang would help to balance Magnus and Russ. Very strange logic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 I think they'd rather try and aim for balance, so toned him down to what we have (which is still great if you ask me!) if he doesn't perform as well as they'd like, they can always buff him. Anuj said to a few people that they'd rather buff weak things than nerf OP things, because people are more receptive to that. I really think the rules are in safe hands going forward. Plus Magnus at least, is being nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Agreed - after waiting a long time for him, I'd much rather have a "wow he's pretty good!" Sanguinius, rather than a "Oh you brought him? Yeah can you not use him this game..." Sanguinius. Much like Magnus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Polo Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Umm...an "OP" Sang would help to balance Magnus and Russ. Very strange logic... It's better for the game's health to fix the two problematic units rather than add a third one. Making part of Magnus' rules into an optional buy-in is a good solution in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeTheButcher Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 apparently Anuj had a bunch more rules planned for sanguinius but was talked into toning them down by Neil, they were very concerned about getting branded with OP after Magnus and Russ. I have to ask (because I've only got Russ into two fights vs Primarchs - One being Magnus buffed with Biomancy) - is Russ really overpowered? I appreciate that he is a beat-stick, but he does next to nothing to buff the army and I often find it a challenge getting him to make his points back. Is he only deemed OP in the whole Primarch vs Primarch side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Perturabo brings red ruin over Fulgrim, Mortarion AND the Khan. I am very pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 apparently Anuj had a bunch more rules planned for sanguinius but was talked into toning them down by Neil, they were very concerned about getting branded with OP after Magnus and Russ. I have to ask (because I've only got Russ into two fights vs Primarchs - One being Magnus buffed with Biomancy) - is Russ really overpowered? I appreciate that he is a beat-stick, but he does next to nothing to buff the army and I often find it a challenge getting him to make his points back. Is he only deemed OP in the whole Primarch vs Primarch side? Yes; his -1 aura for BtB in Close Combat is the kicker (due to WS9) alongside the Sever Life effect of his Sword. Per the Primarch Mathammer Series on 1d4chan, he beats every primarch bar Psy Buffed Magnus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 And we know lore wise that's inaccurate. He should lose to angron, he is unsure if he can beat horus (he can't beat powered up horus). Which means he and sanguinius are probably about even lore wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 And we know lore wise that's inaccurate. He should lose to angron, he is unsure if he can beat horus (he can't beat powered up horus). Which means he and sanguinius are probably about even lore wise. The only way he would realistically lose to Angron on the tabletop is if Angron had the opportunity to get fully buffed with his maximum amount of attacks. Otherwise, you need to get Really lucky with the Tankiest Primarchs to have a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Exactly. Russ probably shouldn't be as tanky as he is. And angron needs a little buff Lore wise, angron bests Russ, and angron was deemed to be a possible counter to sanguinius (although he didn't fancy the effort even when demon princed up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiritual Liege Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Yes. I hate how Angron is supposed to be the melee primarch, but Russ is just better in every way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0nolith Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Yes. I hate how Angron is supposed to be the melee primarch, but Russ is just better in every way. Because this, the one who's model we have, isn't the best Angron ever. At this point he's been dying a slow death for years because of the butchers nails. This is not according to me but to the FW guys. Mid Crusade Angron would have would have defeated Russ... and he did during the night of the wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Frankly, I find the "Angron has been dying" explanation to be acceptable but ultimately disappointing. The gladiator primarch of the most close-combat-oriented legion should not be rather crap at close combat dueling and having to rely on increasing his attacks in battle before entering a duel. Russ is up there...but Forge World obviously favoured the arguably most popular primarch of the arguably most popular legion with "OP" rules. Russ even beats Horus for crying out loud, which is a bit silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0nolith Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Frankly, I find the "Angron has been dying" explanation to be acceptable but ultimately disappointing. The gladiator primarch of the most close-combat-oriented legion should not be rather crap at close combat dueling and having to rely on increasing his attacks in battle before entering a duel. Russ is up there...but Forge World obviously favoured the arguably most popular primarch of the arguably most popular legion with "OP" rules. Russ even beats Horus for crying out loud, which is a bit silly. On the first point I agree, to an extent. Yes lorewise I can see why its a poor excuse, but at the same time he's dirt cheap. There's also to note that when a Daemon version of Angron comes out, be it done by GW or FW, I have no doubt he will be be the second most powerful Primarch in CC, right after Ascended Horus. On the subject of Russ... yeah I agree here too. I did a poll asking what legion(s) they played on facebook a while back because I figured I would get the most responses there, and I got a few hundred people responding. To my surprise Wolves were the most popular legion, and this wasn't right after Book 7 neither, this was only a few months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Frankly, I find the "Angron has been dying" explanation to be acceptable but ultimately disappointing. The gladiator primarch of the most close-combat-oriented legion should not be rather crap at close combat dueling and having to rely on increasing his attacks in battle before entering a duel. Russ is up there...but Forge World obviously favoured the arguably most popular primarch of the arguably most popular legion with "OP" rules. Russ even beats Horus for crying out loud, which is a bit silly. I think that's just a result of the Space Wolves being in Book 7. The Custodes and Thousand Sons are both top tier armies and have some of the most powerful rules, so it would have been a bit of a kick in the guts for wolf fans if their Primarch/Legion was noticeably weaker than the other two factions. I like to think that Book 7 was a bit of a one off, almost like a stand-alone campaign. Of course that's not how it works it reality... Also, I don't think FW realised what they were doing when they gave him WS9 and the bonuses of his armour because they subsequently fixed it in the Errata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 @ m0nolith, Kizzdougs Good points... On SW popularity, just look at the size of the SW sub-forum compared to other legion/chapter sub-forums. It isn't even a contest...though I'd be interested in your poll figures, m0nolith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-soul Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 apparently Anuj had a bunch more rules planned for sanguinius but was talked into toning them down by Neil, they were very concerned about getting branded with OP after Magnus and Russ. Yeah - Once biten twice shy. But the truth is - Sanguinius IS THE ONE that should be OP as gak. And no one would ever ask - How is that come that he is the best? (Until Warp-infused Horus came ot of course) Insted we got that average joe-primarch that can only fight (because he is almost zero as army buffer) and doing it only decent. DECENT. 4++ reroling in first combat phase? For a lad who could saw the future way ahead and created Librarius? He doesn't have hit'n'run, he can't charge from deep strike - Jesus gak he don't even have the red thirst! I think I'll go full black rage mode when I see printed rules. Frankly that ruleset (lot's of attack with high strengh) must be written for Angron. Sanguinius is not a flurry of attack machine - he should have 4-5 attack maximum - but these ones should break the invuln save. He is the tip of the blade beheading the tyrants, the leaders. And he literally knows how and when to hit for a best result. And he also the living Icon for all the Imperium troops - men starts to fight stronger harder, they become fearless in front of enemy Chaos Imperator titan for god's sake. I won't even mention his ability to destroy Eldar and Human best Titans alike. Can Russ do that? Guys i am sorry you have to read this but it just hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0nolith Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 @ m0nolith, Kizzdougs Good points... On SW popularity, just look at the size of the SW sub-forum compared to other legion/chapter sub-forums. It isn't even a contest...though I'd be interested in your poll figures, m0nolith. Space Wolves - 43 Iron Warriors - 31 Night Lords - 29 Thousand Sons - 28 Ultramarines - 25 Imperial Fists - 24 Alpha Legion - 24 Dark Angels - 22 Iron Hands - 19 Sons of Horus - 18 Blood Angels - 17 World Eaters - 17 Word Bearers - 16 Emperors Children - 15 Salamanders - 13 Death Guard - 12 Raven Guard - 9 White Scars - 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kombatwombat Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Really interesting numbers there Mon0lith. Loyalists seem much more popular, and I would not have guessed at DG being so low. You can expect BA to jump up with Book 8, and DA to jump when we see Book 9, but I think WS are beyond salvation... Once Book 9 is out I’d be fascinated to see a large-scale poll on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 apparently Anuj had a bunch more rules planned for sanguinius but was talked into toning them down by Neil, they were very concerned about getting branded with OP after Magnus and Russ. I won't even mention his ability to destroy Eldar and Human best Titans alike. Can Russ do that? Well, yes, there is a story where he did just that. Killing a Warlord titan on his own. ;) Besides... you guys should read Wolfsbane. Don't want to spoiler anything, but it would help a lot. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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