b1soul Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 "Let's make Russ stronger than Horus and nerf Sang...cuz balance" Aaarrrggghhh. Not only is Khan WS7, but Sang is only decent in personal combat. It hurts, it hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kombatwombat Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 The solution to a dumpster fire is not pouring petrol on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I haven't nearly read every novel so you guys have to help an old man out. Are there stories in which Sanguinius defeats other primarchs in personal combat and if so in which book is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I haven't nearly read every novel so you guys have to help an old man out. Are there stories in which Sanguinius defeats other primarchs in personal combat and if so in which book is it? We've only got Sang Vs Curze in Pharos, Sang is unarmoured and it's fought to a standstill before Curze chucks Azkaellon out of a window unconscious It's Not so much there for the scrap, more a plot point where Curze presents his visions and broken mind to another Brother, and for Sang it's confirmation that his visions are accurate and makes him a mopey so and so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 "Let's make Russ stronger than Horus and nerf Sang...cuz balance" Aaarrrggghhh. Not only is Khan WS7, but Sang is only decent in personal combat. It hurts, it hurts. Sang isnt "average" he has joint highest WS, he has a good number of attacks, with two really great weapon options he is very mobile, he is one of the fastest primarch. Hit and run would indeed have been both nice and fitting for him, as would being just a little faster, But it's fine. Magnus isnt a better fighter, psychic powers are just OP, you can't really balance around that. Russ probably shouldn't have the -1 to hit on his armor OR he should only be WS 8, he shouldn't really be init 7 base tbh. If either of those were in place he wouldn't feel too bad tbh. Horus only wine assuming he rebuffs sanguinius, sanguinius has the edge turn 1 of a fight. Honestly, beyond maybe hit and run, I think sanguinius is great. It's pretty clear in wolfsbane that sanguinius is a fight Russ doesn't think he can win, it's also clear that he lost to angron. So dropping him to WS8 (same as horus) And probably making his armour not have the penalty to hit seem appropriate. It won't happen, he is too popular and I don't think they would want to cause issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-soul Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 "Let's make Russ stronger than Horus and nerf Sang...cuz balance" Aaarrrggghhh. Not only is Khan WS7, but Sang is only decent in personal combat. It hurts, it hurts. Sang isnt "average" he has joint highest WS, he has a good number of attacks, with two really great weapon options he is very mobile, he is one of the fastest primarch. Well, he is a good fighter - I mentioned that - but you have to admit - right now he is out of top3. And bing out of top 3 makes him only a good fighter primarch. We may argue how magic is OP, how unbalanced Russ is and how great Horus with stackable debuff - but it's their rules. And they exist that way. The only real point of argue here is - Should Sanguinius stay this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Sanguinius isnt the issue, is the point. Sanguinius' rules do a pretty great job of showing him. He isn't in rage mode and he is that good. They said he will probably get other rules for him at the eternity gate. Horus is fine, his claw is great but not OP. Russ and Magnus both need a nerf (moreso magnus). We shall see how things look once the errata is out and decide how things stand then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Back in my own bed after traveling (I bucketed the HH Weekender with a work trip), so my thoughts are still not as organized as I would like, but a few comments/thoughts after brushing up on this thread: A. this is a new rules team for 30k. It's now Anuj + Neil's show and solely Anuj + Neil's show. They are very in tune with the overall community (Anuj: "we're in a lot more places listening than you'd think, we just can't comment.") and are passionate and want to get things right. Especially when it comes to Power Creep: I would expect things overall to be more toned down moving forward B. RE: Khan's WS7....that is, for me, kind of like Sang's Moonsilver blade "only" being AP3....what kind of Primarch relies on a non-AP2 weapon? I thought it had Rending as well, but apparently not. At the same time, though, going along with Anuj + Neil's philosophy they don't want every model/unit to be just fire-and-forget, and obvious upgrades to each other, but rather require thought and appreciation for exactly how to maximize their use. C. RE: Angron's underwhelming abilities on the table... just insert the Berzerker's rule, aka the Khorne Clause Hidden Content Models with this rule may fight a second time in combat after all other models have fought and voila, now you have a one trick pony that knows what helluva scary trick. Yes, Angron has not yet fallen to Khorne, yada yada yada but you know what I mean from a rules perspective. D. In (one of) my 1:1 conversation(s) with Anuj, he mentioned that they are likely to do 2.0/revisited versions of characters kind of like Corvus before/after Isstvaan, but as whole other datasheets. Up-daemoned Horus and Sanguinius-at-the-(Eternity)-gates were two we specifically mentioned (bcoz mah blood angles), but also how Traitor Primarchs evolve throughout the Heresy, etc... That being said, extreme emphasis added, they aren't even thinking about it beyond beer-and-pretzels convos because that would be for Act 3 of the HH and they won't even be done with Act 1 until the I Legion/Dark Mechanicum are out in Book 9. E. Going back to Sanguinius yet again, I meant to ask if the Infernus is supposed to have the Pistol special rule (so that he'd be +1A for Encarmine/Moonsilver). I also mentioned that I thought it was a bit odd that there are no Deep Strike scatter reductions for the IX Legion outside of Sangy himself not scattering the unit he is attached to. Neil said they couldn't find a way (in time) to properly balance things...if the whole army could not scatter it would be a bit too much. Something they may re-visit, but again, going with the "we can always buff later" rather than "crap, we need to nerf this" philosophy, that's what we're stuck with for the moment F. RE: Khan's prowess overall: my only 30k game I got in at the Weekender was against 3000pts of White Scars. Based on what that mostly-jetbike + armor list could do alone, adding Khan to any V Legion force is going to have increase their abilities exponentially. I am not exaggerating when I say that I think White Scars armies w/ Khan are going to be one of the Top 3 builds for a long time to come. EDIT: “it’s now Anuj + Neil’s show” ...I mistyped “not” instead of “now” which drastically changes the meaning. I meant to that it is now their show entirely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 People are forgetting the best duelist perch right now is Purterabo with forgebreaker. Not angron. Not fulgrim. Not sanguinius. Not the khan. The bitter guy with a big hammer. Now maybe that is accurate since he ruined Daemon angron in a fight, but at the end of the day you can't have 5 guys who are all "the best melee fighter" primarch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I think the consensus is Russ beats Perty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-soul Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 D. In (one of) my 1:1 conversation(s) with Anuj, he mentioned that they are likely to do 2.0/revisited versions of characters kind of like Corvus before/after Isstvaan, but as whole other datasheets. Up-daemoned Horus and Sanguinius-at-the-(Eternity)-gates were two we specifically mentioned (bcoz mah blood angles), but also how Traitor Primarchs evolve throughout the Heresy, etc... That being said, extreme emphasis added, they aren't even thinking about it beyond beer-and-pretzels convos because that would be for Act 3 of the HH and they won't even be done with Act 1 until the I Legion/Dark Mechanicum are out in Book 9. E. Going back to Sanguinius yet again, I meant to ask if the Infernus is supposed to have the Pistol special rule (so that he'd be +1A for Encarmine/Moonsilver). I also mentioned that I thought it was a bit odd that there are no Deep Strike scatter reductions for the IX Legion outside of Sangy himself not scattering the unit he is attached to. Neil said they couldn't find a way (in time) to properly balance things...if the whole army could not scatter it would be a bit too much. Something they may re-visit, but again, going with the "we can always buff later" rather than "crap, we need to nerf this" philosophy, that's what we're stuck with for the moment F. RE: Khan's prowess overall: my only 30k game I got in at the Weekender was against 3000pts of White Scars. Based on what that mostly-jetbike + armor list could do alone, adding Khan to any V Legion force is going to have increase their abilities exponentially. I am not exaggerating when I say that I think White Scars armies w/ Khan are going to be one of the Top 3 builds for a long time to come. I just didn't know there is some substantial power boost for Sanguinius at the gate. It seems odd to make additional "incarnation" for characters like Snguinius. To me it's like making another version of Ferrus. And Khan is really shines in compare to Sanguinius. He is pretty balanced - very mobile (jet bikes are the best in 7th edition), quite strong - 3++ in close combat and t7. He is not as deadly as say Sanguinius - but he can handle situation - he always strikes first - and if battle is too hard - he can hit and run for a pretty long distance away. And shoot. I think his jetbike would have some good ranged gun. 5++ is not so good - but he have a jink ( i guess 2+) t7 and he can obviously have bodyguards. But it's not all - he also buff his army in a really good way - give scout and outflank +1 to go first, +1 to sieze, +1 to reserve. So in my mind I see Khan as a good tanky fighter who leads his army and making it better. With a uniqe rule to fight first all the time. And giant jet bike. I feel the synergy of that chap and his units. He needs them. They need him. And it's great. But then I look at San... No I have to be stronger than this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceofAllTradez Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Sanguinius isnt the issue, is the point. Sanguinius' rules do a pretty great job of showing him. He isn't in rage mode and he is that good. They said he will probably get other rules for him at the eternity gate. Horus is fine, his claw is great but not OP. Russ and Magnus both need a nerf (moreso magnus). We shall see how things look once the errata is out and decide how things stand then. Russ actually already got a nerf. The -1 in btb is really all Russ has going for him. With Magnus it’s the psychic powers that make him over the top rightfully so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Since Sanguinius is described as severly wounded when facing Horus you guys shouldn't hope for too much. ;) More like Istvaan Corax. Hit and Run: I don't think that this rule fits Sanguinius at all. Khan- sure Corax- yes. But not Sanguinius. He is THE Blood Angel and his rules reflect that perfektly. He strikes his opponents with vengeance in a storm of strikes and gore. That's how he should be. And remember that his third weapon is designed for fighting deamons and doesn't need ap2 @skimaskMohawk: Remember that Perturabo punched Fulgrim to a pulp as well, so it is fitting that he can pull that of. Neither Sanguinius nor the Khan did anything like that in their books so why should their rules be different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedwaKe Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Don't underestimate Sanguinius. He's fast, he hits like a truck and buff his army a little. No other primarch can kill custodes as easily / kill as many astartes in a single phase than he does. The ONLY thing Russ do better is agaisnt another primarch/multi wounds eternal warrior target. Sang does better than him vs astartes, custodes, mechanicum automatas, tanks, knights. Plus you don't even have to buy him a transport. Dont forget that primarchs fights are not everything. I'd pick Sanguinius over Russ any day of the week and I'm a SW player.. And his model is so awesome that I'm trying not to start blood angels right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I think the consensus is Russ beats Perty It's pretty even. Russ gets 1 wound through which on average generates another 2 which get saved (I think, it's been a while since I looked at the mechanic), that's assuming he charged too. Perty strikes back, getting one wound that russ needs to save; if he doesn't he loses as he's locked at ws and I 1 for the rest of the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeTheButcher Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 "Let's make Russ stronger than Horus and nerf Sang...cuz balance" Aaarrrggghhh. Not only is Khan WS7, but Sang is only decent in personal combat. It hurts, it hurts. Hmmm. I've thought about this. There seems to be an opinion that Horus became warmaster because he was physically the best one-on-one fighter of the Primarchs. Stated & melee rules, Horus can match Russ. But Horus also buffs his army. So does Sang. Russ is very one dimensional. Russ, also, cannot clear troops like Angron. I've had Russ stuck slowly chopping through a fearless unit whereas Angron would have gone through them like a buzz-saw. I'm reminded of the Princess Bride..... "I know why you are giving me so much trouble... for a while now I've been specialising in groups" (or words to that effect - Fezzik vs the Man in Black. And my friend is quietly convinced, Russ doesn't last a round vs Sang. Yet to see all the rules and he was at the weekender, so inclined to trust his opinion. Really keen to see the Khan though. He I think is (like the character) going to fly under the radar and still be one of the best (depending if your definition of the best means contributing to his army play style). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Don't underestimate Sanguinius. He's fast, he hits like a truck and buff his army a little. No other primarch can kill custodes as easily / kill as many astartes in a single phase than he does. The ONLY thing Russ do better is agaisnt another primarch/multi wounds eternal warrior target. Sang does better than him vs astartes, custodes, mechanicum automatas, tanks, knights. Plus you don't even have to buy him a transport. Dont forget that primarchs fights are not everything. I'd pick Sanguinius over Russ any day of the week and I'm a SW player.. And his model is so awesome that I'm trying not to start blood angels right now. Do It!!!! ahem... What people also need to remember is that while HH is Legion vs Legion, the HH fluff is Legion vs Xenos and/or humans/guard and each legion became specialised, IW brought down the targets walls and Pert is great at that, DG walked up to the wall's shouting "is that all you've got!!!" and Mort's good at that, SW stormed the keep and took out the big bad on the throne and Russ is good at that, BA/WE's stormed the walls, WE's with blood and gore to show the futility of resistance, BA with righteous fury for the same, And thats what Sang does, any normal defending force when hit by Sang and the BA's are going to have a very bad day and know they are out classed and out majestic'd by Sang the glorious son of an emperor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 What is vector strike? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 What is vector strike? You can declare a Vector Strike when an FMC (flyers can too iirc?) moves over an enemy unit; that unit suffers a number of hits. Its been a while since ive had to deal with a VS and Im AFB so iffy on the exact details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 So theoretically he could just keep flying over people and wounding them? Or vector strike a squad and then charge into another squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Yeah he has a rule that lets him do a strength 6 AP 2 hit. Pretty sure his is also more powerful vs flyers, FMC and something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 So theoretically he could just keep flying over people and wounding them? Or vector strike a squad and then charge into another squad? I think, technically, yes. Im not 100% sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Yeah he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Yea corax has the same thing. It's a little wonky because the rule is meant for fmcs and flyers and they're supposed to be in flyer mode, but for primarchs it essentially means you move over a unit and do 1 str 6 ap 2 auto hit that ignores cover, randomised. Against I think flyers and fmcs it's d3, can't remember if they have to be actively flying or not. Basically, the primarchs with Wings can whack light flyers in their movement phase with a bit of luck and ignore los to get some nice cover ignoring ap 2 on any lone models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 What's with the talk of Vector Strike? Is Sanguinius a Flyer? I thought he was Jump Infantry? Also, I think his rules are pretty great :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.