Sanguinius in 40k?

[Panzer]

 

 

Guilliman was never dead, so his return isn’t the return from death. In fact it fits with old lore.

 

Ynnari doesn’t work as an argument either. Again it’s old lore. Plus, it’s not the same as resurrection from the dead. I’m fact it’s the opposite. It’s birth of new life through death. The creation of a god through the sacrifices of their own species.

Yes and no. Part of Guillimans awakening process was getting killed by Yvraine so her god could resurrect Guilliman.

Also since we're already talking about Guilliman and new fluff, the Primaris Rubicon thing involves the Marine to die and coming back to life as well.

Not really. The Calgarian rites are a surgery. They go pretty in depth with it in spear of the emperor.

 

 

I haven't read Spear of the Emperor yet but if true it contradicts what we learned about the Rubicon in Vigilus 1 since it clearly states that Calgar died in the process (not as accident but as planned) and had to get revived.

[Arkangilos]

The thing is died does really mean dead. People can die today in operations and be brought back. So yeah, Calgar “died” but that doesn’t mean died the the typical sense, but medically.

[Panzer]

The thing is died does really mean dead. People can die today in operations and be brought back. So yeah, Calgar “died” but that doesn’t mean died the the typical sense, but medically.

What is the typical sense if not medical? Really curious what you mean with that aside of permanent because if it's about permanency then if Sanguinius returns he never was really dead either. :D

But to clarify, Vigilus states that Calgar was dead for at least 20 minutes, that his physiology got "surpressed to the point that his life slipped away", that he was "brought back to life" and that he "clawed his way back from beyond the brink of death".

[Arkangilos]

I mean “your spirit has left and has not yet returned for the second coming dead.”

 

Medically dead means your heart stopped, or you are brain dead. There is still a chance to bring you back from that. Once you are dead dead, and your spirit has left there is no bringing you back short of God returning the spirit.

 

While a game and so God can’t literally give or receive his soul, it’s the same concept. His soul hasn’t been claimed by the warp, so he’s medically dead, not dead dead. Had he been fully dead his soul would have been claimed by either the warp or the Emperor, and so Calgar would not have been able to have been resurrected.

 

I mean the warp literally consumes souls of the dead in the game. Once that happens there is no bringing them back.

-exceptions, of course, exist for those the Emperor wills back, such as Legion of the Damned and Imperial Living Saints-

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

The thing is died does really mean dead. People can die today in operations and be brought back. So yeah, Calgar “died” but that doesn’t mean died the the typical sense, but medically.

What is the typical sense if not medical? Really curious what you mean with that aside of permanent because if it's about permanency then if Sanguinius returns he never was really dead either. :D

But to clarify, Vigilus states that Calgar was dead for at least 20 minutes, that his physiology got "surpressed to the point that his life slipped away", that he was "brought back to life" and that he "clawed his way back from beyond the brink of death".

Working on becoming a sanguinary priest/apothecary I can tell you. There's no such thing as "dead" until the doctor calls you dead. If your heart stops, you go into a code. And just because your heart stops (hearts in this case, ((even for 10 minutes))) doesn't mean you died. The Physiology of trans-humans is much more diverse than the way we can ever imagine today. Literally speaking,to say he died and came back is more sexy, than he coded and then resuscitated.

 

Spoiler of Spear of the Emperor.

In spear of the Emperor the Calgarian rites are a week long surgery performed on a space marine where he codes and seizes multiple times throughout the process. There is a lot of work that goes into the process and it is excruciating as bone regrows and organs are repaired.

[Panzer]

 

 

The thing is died does really mean dead. People can die today in operations and be brought back. So yeah, Calgar “died” but that doesn’t mean died the the typical sense, but medically.

What is the typical sense if not medical? Really curious what you mean with that aside of permanent because if it's about permanency then if Sanguinius returns he never was really dead either.

But to clarify, Vigilus states that Calgar was dead for at least 20 minutes, that his physiology got "surpressed to the point that his life slipped away", that he was "brought back to life" and that he "clawed his way back from beyond the brink of death".

Working on becoming a sanguinary priest/apothecary I can tell you. There's no such thing as "dead" until the doctor calls you dead. If your heart stops, you go into a code. And just because your heart stops (hearts in this case, ((even for 10 minutes))) doesn't mean you died. The Physiology of trans-humans is much more diverse than the way we can ever imagine today. Literally speaking,to say he died and came back is more sexy, than he coded and then resuscitated.

 

Spoiler of Spear of the Emperor.

In spear of the Emperor the Calgarian rites are a week long surgery performed on a space marine where he codes and seizes multiple times throughout the process. There is a lot of work that goes into the process and it is excruciating as bone regrows and organs are repaired.

 

 

So basically just permanency as I assumed. Thanks for the clarification anyway.

I guess considering a Primarchs body is even more different and there's the warp and everything involved GW could always just go and say he wasn't dead, he was coded. If I recall correctly Sanguinius body is stored in a sarcophagus on Baal anyway, no? The same kind of sarcophagus Blood Angels use to sleep and regenerate. ^^

[Arkangilos]

Except you can be permanently dead and resurrected.

 

Resurrection is super natural, something that cannot happen through natural means, in which the dead (truly dead) return from the dead. That is different than what Calgar went through.

 

That’s different than being “declared dead” medically. Declared dead is different than actually having no life.

 

Sanguinius isn’t coded. He’s dead. He has no life left in his body. It’s gone. His soul is gone.

 

It could return by some miracle, which would be resurrection. That would be different than being recessitated by a doctor or nurse.

[Arkangilos]

For example, my roommate is a cardiac nurse at the ICU at integris hospital, and we talked about the different kinds of death that can be declared. He’s an atheist (who is becoming catholic, albeit slowly) and I am a Catholic, so we also talked about the differences between medical death and death death. He asked “when is something considered dead? When does the soul leave the body? Is it when their brain is dead?” A lot of things came up, and he said, “if a person’s consciousness is in their brain, and their brain is distroyed, they are dead, even though we can keep their body alive. So if we keep their body alive would it be a sin to kill the body even though the consciousness is gone? After all they are just a sack of meat at that point.”

 

He has kept bodies alive even though they were officially brain dead, which in the medical community is considered dead.

 

You can’t rely on medical death to tell you when real death is when a soul is involved.

 

Here is a thing talking about cardiac death vs brain death

https://journals.lww.com/nursingmadeincrediblyeasy/fulltext/2015/03000/Cardiac_death_vs__brain_death.10.aspx

 

—-

 

Also, his body has no blood in it anymore, so I don’t think he can regenerate, and I don’t think it is he same kind of sarcophagus

[Panzer]

You can’t rely on medical death to tell you when real death is when a soul is involved.

 

 

You also can't really talk about the theoritcal concept of soul in the real world and the soul in 40k in the same way. In 40k we know the soul exists, can leave the body, can return to the body, can exist without the body and so on. In real life it's just a theory and all forms of death are purely about the physical body (including the brain).

 

So when exactly is someone in 40k dead? When the soul got crushed in the warp? When does that happen? Fabius Bile keeps implanting his concious into fresh clone bodies all the time because his body can't hold up anymore but this procedure isn't warp related at all. Not to mention that he managed to clone Fulgrim after almost 10k years including his soul apparently which implies Primarch souls can survive for quite a long time in the warp (also implying Daemon Fulgrim isn't actually Fulgrim but that's a different topic) which would mean that Sanguinius soul is very possibly still existing which would mean he isn't actually dead.

[Bonzi]

Sanguinius is already present in every BA army in 40K. It's called the Death Company.

[Panzer]

Not in my BA army. :P

[Arkangilos]

 

 

You can’t rely on medical death to tell you when real death is when a soul is involved.

 

You also can't really talk about the theoritcal concept of soul in the real world and the soul in 40k in the same way. In 40k we know the soul exists, can leave the body, can return to the body, can exist without the body and so on. In real life it's just a theory and all forms of death are purely about the physical body (including the brain).

 

So when exactly is someone in 40k dead? When the soul got crushed in the warp? When does that happen? Fabius Bile keeps implanting his concious into fresh clone bodies all the time because his body can't hold up anymore but this procedure isn't warp related at all. Not to mention that he managed to clone Fulgrim after almost 10k years including his soul apparently which implies Primarch souls can survive for quite a long time in the warp (also implying Daemon Fulgrim isn't actually Fulgrim but that's a different topic) which would mean that Sanguinius soul is very possibly still existing which would mean he isn't actually dead.

Yes I can compare them because the concept is the same. The body and soul are created together. When the body dies the medical side pronounces death, when the soul leaves that is the actual death.

 

I do not consider brain death as death. Nor do I consider cardiac death as death. Those are medical terms used to determine when to apply aid and when to withdraw aid.

 

In 40k they can also have those terms, which would be why Calgar “died” but his soul wasn’t consumed. We KNOW from lore that a soul, when death occurs, leaves the body and and is consumed by the warp, or by the Emperor. So Calgar did not actually die. He medically died, but he himself was not yet dead. In the medical world you can die, but since the medical world only covers the body, and not the soul it’s not the same death.

 

Also in real life not all forms of death are purely about the physical. There are entire fields on bio ethics dedicated to the topic of when do you “actually die” which is why Christian doctors don’t just euthanize brain dead people. So when people die is obviously not as clear cut as when *some* doctors say.

 

In other words, Sanguinius is dead, but could come back. Calgar was NOT dead, and was recessitated.

[Panzer]

 

 

You can’t rely on medical death to tell you when real death is when a soul is involved.

You also can't really talk about the theoritcal concept of soul in the real world and the soul in 40k in the same way. In 40k we know the soul exists, can leave the body, can return to the body, can exist without the body and so on. In real life it's just a theory and all forms of death are purely about the physical body (including the brain).

 

So when exactly is someone in 40k dead? When the soul got crushed in the warp? When does that happen? Fabius Bile keeps implanting his concious into fresh clone bodies all the time because his body can't hold up anymore but this procedure isn't warp related at all. Not to mention that he managed to clone Fulgrim after almost 10k years including his soul apparently which implies Primarch souls can survive for quite a long time in the warp (also implying Daemon Fulgrim isn't actually Fulgrim but that's a different topic) which would mean that Sanguinius soul is very possibly still existing which would mean he isn't actually dead.

Yes I can compare them because the concept is the same. The body and soul are created together. When the body dies the medical side pronounces death, when the soul leaves that is the actual death.

 

I do not consider brain death as death. Nor do I consider cardiac death as death. Those are medical terms used to determine when to apply aid and when to withdraw aid.

 

In 40k they can also have those terms, which would be why Calgar “died” but his soul wasn’t consumed. We KNOW from lore that a soul, when death occurs, leaves the body and and is consumed by the warp, or by the Emperor. So Calgar did not actually die. He medically died, but he himself was not yet dead. In the medical world you can die, but since the medical world only covers the body, and not the soul it’s not the same death.

 

Also in real life not all forms of death are purely about the physical. There are entire fields on bio ethics dedicated to the topic of when do you “actually die” which is why Christian doctors don’t just euthanize brain dead people. So when people die is obviously not as clear cut as when *some* doctors say.

 

In other words, Sanguinius is dead, but could come back. Calgar was NOT dead, and was recessitated.

 

 

You focussed way too much on the first part of my post and completely ignored the rest lol

[Arkangilos]

When I say consumed I don’t mean destroyed. Souls reside in the warp for eternity I presume. In the Black Books the souls of those claimed by Khorne are constantly fighting in his realm, and the souls claimed by Nurgle are stuck in his garden.

 

In fact, in the Book of Nurgle it talks about how Nurgle will randomly pick souls from one of his bogs and make them tell him a story. If he likes he story he will turn him into a Daemon to tend to the garden.

 

So the soul appears to be immortal, so to speak unless deliberately destroyed.

Also I wouldn’t think that fulgrims clone’s soul was the same soul that inhabbited Fulgrim from the HH. The clone probably had a cloned soul?

 

I did answer when someone was dead though. That would be when the soul leaves the body.

[Panzer]

That's just the souls claimed by the chaos gods though. That's like a version of an afterlife. Not everything in the warp is a domain of the gods and not every soul gets claimed by them.

 

Also I disagree on the soul leaving the body counting as dead.

[Arkangilos]

ok?

 

Also unclaimed souls become furies, iirc.

 

You don’t have to be a follower to be claimed though. In fact many of those in the garden weren’t followers.

[Hfran Morkai]

Wasn't Sanguinius' soul destroyed by Horus? I was under the impression he wasn't simply killed but his soul was shattered? It's been a long time since I've read the stuff.

[Arkangilos]

Wasn't Sanguinius' soul destroyed by Horus? I was under the impression he wasn't simply killed but his soul was shattered? It's been a long time since I've read the stuff.

I think it was shattered but still exists. Dante was visited by it.

[Blindhamster]

Wasn't Sanguinius' soul destroyed by Horus? I was under the impression he wasn't simply killed but his soul was shattered? It's been a long time since I've read the stuff.

Don't think so?

 

Horus' soul was destroyed by the emperor. Sanguinius was strangled to death.

[Karhedron]

Wasn't Sanguinius' soul destroyed by Horus? I was under the impression he wasn't simply killed but his soul was shattered? It's been a long time since I've read the stuff.

I thought it was Horus who had his soul obliterated by the Emperor. Sanguinius had a nasty but conventional death IIRC. The fluff has been revised a couple of times IIRC and we probably won't get the definitive version until the Siege of Terra series reaches its conclusion. I assume it will be in the final book as I don't believe the battle between Emps and Horus could take an entire novel.

[Blindhamster]

 

Wasn't Sanguinius' soul destroyed by Horus? I was under the impression he wasn't simply killed but his soul was shattered? It's been a long time since I've read the stuff.

I thought it was Horus who had his soul obliterated by the Emperor. Sanguinius had a nasty but conventional death IIRC. The fluff has been revised a couple of times IIRC and we probably won't get the definitive version until the Siege of Terra series reaches its conclusion. I assume it will be in the final book as I don't believe the battle between Emps and Horus could take an entire novel.

I imagine an author is now thinking "hold my beer"

[Hfran Morkai]

You fine folks are probably right. I remember someone's soul being obliterated and it makes far more sense for the Emperor to have done that when fighting Horus.

 

It's been too long (I can't even remember where I read this).

[Lord Marshal]

I'm sure in ten-fifteen years when every other Primarch model has been milked dry and they need to top off the cocaine bucket he'll find a way back.

[m0nolith]

I'm sure in ten-fifteen years when every other Primarch model has been milked dry and they need to top off the cocaine bucket he'll find a way back.

Sad but true.

[Panzer]

You don’t have to be a follower to be claimed though. In fact many of those in the garden weren’t followers.

I never said anything else.