ambit Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Firstly, just wanted to say I'm pumped about the new Primaris models GW announed, they suit the Raptors perfectly! I fully intend to buy the Shadowspear battlebox and incorporate them all into the army. Vanguard Space Marines could potentially replace Scouts, and the Vanguard Librarian and Eliminators would all fit the Raptors theme. The other thing I've been doing is converting all non-Primaris characters/units using existing Primaris models and I'll post the photos here as I finish them. I'm trying to put a bit of a story together that justifies collecting any of the unique units from the various Space Marine armies, but painting all as one chapter - The Raptors. Whilst the green/camo colour scheme will pull them all together, the key will be to keep the different detachments visually distinct enough, so that there isn't an issue if I ever play in tournaments. The below army list has detachments of Raven Guard, Deathwatch and Blood Angels, though I'll play with other lists that also incorporate Dark Angels and Space Wolves units I want to collect too. I'll be calling the army 'Task Force Green', after the JSOC nickname for Delta Force (and appropriate considering their Green power armour). They will be representing the Raptors 6th Company, led by Captain Kaedes. Also known as 'Reasonable Marines', the Raptors are a Raven Guard successor that use actual camouflage, sneaking, and tactics, rather than running at the enemy painted in bright colours. As a Chapter, the Raptors have been nearly rendered extinct multiple times, but have learned to adapt to changing circumstances so well that they have flourished where other Chapters would simply have had their names added to the ranks of the fallen. They're almost always deployed as individual task forces or kill teams and the Raptors' Chapter culture is one that is very wary of the idea of martial glory or honour, instead preferring pragmatism, adaptability and completion of the mission over all other concerns. This pragmatism and adaptability has led to the Raptors utilising multiple fighting styles that deviate from the Codex Astartes, and when combined with their natural preference for working in task forces and kill teams, has led to the adoption of many of the tactics utilised by other chapters. Returning Deathwatch veterans in particular have added to the organisational intelligence, providing proven methods of incorporating diverse tactics and specialised skillsets within small kill teams. Likewise, the Corvus Corax gene curse of the Raven Guard has led to special formations of Shadow Killers (Moruturi/Moritats). To represent this, I plan on running as a Blood Angels detachment to represent their suicidal fighting style. The parallels between the Death Company and Moritats are definitely present and I plan on giving them an appropriate amount of grim/death related iconography (thanks ITvyper for the suggestion). For the Raptors, the Primaris Space Marines are an evolution of the work undertaken by Primarch Corax after the drop site massacre, where he secured the original primarch DNA (for all 20 primarchs) from the emperor to try and remake his legion. The resulting Astartes, though lacking combat experience, were even more capable than typical Raven Guard Space Marines and were assigned the name "Raptors". Unfortunately, Alpha Legion operatives within the Raven Guard stole a sample of the pure Primarch gene stock and contaminated the remainder with a virus tainted with daemonic essence. The next cadre of Raven Guard Astartes was predictably a disaster, manifesting hideous Warp-related mutations after they were implanted with their gene-seed organs, and many had to be kept imprisoned. In the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, the Primarch Guilliman gave the Sangprimus Portum to Archmagos Dominus Cawl, after charging the Archmagos with creating the next generation of Space Marines. The Raptors eagerly took these Primaris reinforcements during the Indomitus Crusade and incorporated them fully into each of their task forces, discovering new tactics and strategies from the initial engagements with their new Battle-Brothers. As mentioned earlier, I will focus on modelling everything 'primaris' size, even if representing an older unit. As part of their primaris reinforcements, the Raptors also received a shipment of gene stock from Mars. Little did they know that Alpha legion operatives would once again try to tamper with their gene seed. This time it was through mixing the gene seed with the highly unstable genetic material of the Wolf Lord Leman Russ. Unlike the earlier demon essence contamination, this time the differences weren't as readily apparent.. It wasn't until a century or so later that it became obvious that some of their more savage battle brothers were starting to develop wolf-like mutations. This gives me the option of running a Space Wolves detachment. As a result of the Alpha Legion espionage operations against the Raptors (and their tampering with the Raven Guard gene stock during the Horus Heresey), the current Raptors have responded by maintaining an elite Inner Circle charged with counter intelligence, guarding the chapter against espionage and hostile intelligence operations. The Inner Circle can even launch independent military operations in response to critical intelligence they receive through a carefully built network of spies, sensors and informants. To represent this Inner Circle, I have the option of running a Dark Angels detachment. The Raptors currently operate from a fortress-monastery they refer to only as "Prime", on a world variously named Numina, Ra or Badwater from deep within the dense stellar drifts of the Sutters Spiral Nebula on the northern border of the Segmentum Solar. However, none of the Battle-Brothers have disclosed the name or precise location of the home world, even to members of the Adeptus Administratum. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [43 PL, 521pts, 7CP] ++ **Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard Relics of the Chapter (1 Relic) [-1CP] + HQ + Captain [6 PL, 117pts]: Relic blade, Combi-melta, Jump Pack, Raven's Fury, Silent Stalker, Warlord Lieutenant [5 PL, 81pts]: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun, The Primarch's Wrath, Jump Pack + Troops + Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts] . Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Boltgun . 4x Scout w/Boltgun Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts] . Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Boltgun . 4x Scout w/Boltgun Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts] . Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Boltgun . 4x Scout w/Boltgun + Elites + Company Veterans on Bikes [14 PL, 158pts] . Space Marine Biker Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield, Twin boltgun . Space Marine Biker Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield, Twin boltgun . Space Marine Biker Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield, Twin boltgun . Veteran Biker Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter, Twin boltgun ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Deathwatch) [61 PL, 1107pts, 4CP] ++ Armory of the Watch Fortress (1 Relic) [-1CP] + HQ + Watch Master [7 PL, 130pts] Librarian [7 PL, 124pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 2) Might of Heroes, Force stave, Storm Bolter, Jump Pack, The Beacon Angelis + Troops + Intercessors [14 PL, 240pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher . Hellblaster: Plasma incinerator . Hellblaster: Plasma incinerator . Hellblaster: Plasma incinerator . Hellblaster: Plasma incinerator . Intercessor: Bolt rifle . Intercessor: Bolt rifle . Intercessor: Bolt rifle . Intercessor: Bolt rifle . Intercessor: Bolt rifle . Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle, Chainsword Intercessors [18 PL, 346pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher . Aggressor: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers . Aggressor: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers . Inceptor: 2x Plasma Exterminator . Inceptor: 2x Plasma Exterminator . Inceptor: 2x Plasma Exterminator . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle . Intercessor Sergeant: Auto Bolt Rifle, Chainsword Intercessors [15 PL, 267pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher . Aggressor: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers . Hellblaster: Heavy Plasma Incinerator . Hellblaster: Heavy Plasma Incinerator . Hellblaster: Heavy Plasma Incinerator . Hellblaster: Heavy Plasma Incinerator . Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle . Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle . Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle . Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword, Stalker Bolt Rifle ++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [21 PL, 371pts, -2CP] ++ Armoury of Baal [-3CP]: 2 additional Relics of Baal + HQ + Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer Captain [6 PL, 105pts]: Jump Pack, Lightning Claw, Lightning Claw, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack) Librarian Dreadnought [9 PL, 142pts]: 1. Quickening, 6. Wings of Sanguinus, Furioso fist, Storm bolter, The Veritas Vitae ++ Total: [125 PL, 1999pts, 9CP] ++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Welcome to the Ravenspire! I like your list in both structure and head-fluff, a lot. That being said, I think you will find that with the drop in cost to Storm Shields and the strength of Storm Bolters with the new Bolter Beta Rule, regular Deathwatch Veteran Squads are the superior troop choice. Something like: Watch Sergeant, SB/CS BlackShield, SB/CS Biker w Homing Beacon Terminator, SB/PS 6x Veteran with SB/SS The above unit has more flexibility, more durability, is less points, and puts out considerably more pain (double the shots) That being said, if you were to do this, you would lose a lot of your Plasma/Anti-Tank. I personally feel relying on plasma for that task is a bad idea anyway, as it just doesn't do enough wounds (unless of course you're Dark Angels). You could keep one fully plasma kitted Primaris unit to put on the teleporter and drop in. I think you will find that pound for pound Mephiston is better than the Librarian Dread, so I would suggest swapping that. I think you can rely on the BA Captains to be your KEQ killers. As much as it pains me to say it, this list probably becomes stronger with dropping the RG Battalion for a Loyal 32, and using those points for more Deathwatch in the form of AT (Quad Las Contemptors), or more Veterans. Regardless, good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 With the coming of Wave 2 and future formations Im not confident Deathwatch is future proofed to the point Id invest heavily in them. If you have them already them by all means they are a fun playstyle. How you paint these up for competition is going to be important. It has to be very clear what is what or your going to get grief ... but im sure you know that. I just think that as the Primaris line expands we're going to see combos that are going to be must haves. Each Codex since a year ago has been top notch and I feel the 2nd go-around for Astartes (all flavors) is going to follow in that path. Their won't be room or a need for the 32. That said, I want to buy a 32 detachment, but its not happening until GW does for Guard infantry what they're doing for Chaos and Primaris. I had a Cadian army when the plastics came out. They just dont cut todays standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 8, 2019 Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 Yeah I'm trying to keep it all to one chapter from a fluff and painting perspective (camo and greens), even though they are technically DW, RG and BA detachments. I love the primaris models, and with the new vanguard units I'll probably be changing up the RG detachment to incorporate them (fingers crossed they are troop choices). Also in keeping with the theme, I'm trying to avoid named characters where possible (hence the Librarian Dreadnought instead of Mephiston), and to identify models between detachments I'll be avoiding multiple units with the same setup in different detachments, so as long as it's explained beforehand, I'm hoping no one has an issue. It's probably not the most optimised list from a competitive perspective, but each of the intercessor units is equipped to handle multiple threats in their respective section of the battle (front, middle, back). The bikes help with dakka where needed, the scouts help with area denial and objectives, and all the characters then focus on the biggest threats. I've just finished converting the Watch Master from a Gravis Captain, and the BA Captain with Lightning Claws from the primaris chaplain. Waiting on the backpack for Shadow Captain Korvydae to finish the RG Captain and the Furioso Force Halberd for the Librarian Dreadnought (using a Redemptor as the base). Might wait on the new Vanguard box before I do the Jump Pack Librarian and the other RG units, just in case I swap them out. If I was to include the loyal 32, it would be Catachan for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 11, 2019 Author Share Posted February 11, 2019 I said I would use Catachan for a guard battalion, but was thinking about it and had an idea to use space marine scouts as Guard Snipers, and using the bolter scouts as regular Guardsmen. Seeing as the rest of my army is 'up-sized' to primaris marines, the scouts would look like normal humans (there about the same size models as guard anyway). The plan with that detachment would first be to use them as a screen and deny deepstrike near my deployment zone. But secondly to spam sniper rifles and have them all done in greens and camo colours (fitting the sneaky raptors theme). Fluff Captain Kaedes and the Raptor's 6th company have recently seen action with the Black Shields of Hyades, an Astra Militarum regiment from the Nimbosa System of the Segmentum Obscurus, not far from the Death World of Fenris. They share similar combat doctrines with the Raptors and the 6th have found their assistance invaluable when operating behind enemy lines in ambush and reconnaissance missions. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Deathwatch) [61 PL, 1107pts, 7CP] ++ Armory of the Watch Fortress (1 Relic) [-1CP] + HQ + Watch Master [7 PL, 130pts]: Tome of the EctocladesLibrarian with Jump Pack [7 PL, 124pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 2) Might of Heroes, Force sword, Jump Pack, Storm Bolter, The Beacon Angelis + Troops + Intercessors [14 PL, 240pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher. 4 x Hellblaster: Plasma incinerator. 5 x Intercessor: Bolt rifle. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle, Chainsword Intercessors [18 PL, 346pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher. 2 x Aggressor: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers. 3 x Inceptor: 2x Plasma Exterminator. 4 x Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle. Intercessor Sergeant: Auto Bolt Rifle, Chainsword Intercessors [15 PL, 267pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher. Aggressor: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers. 4 x Hellblaster: Heavy Plasma Incinerator. 4 x Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword, Stalker Bolt Rifle ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [27 PL, 293pts, 4CP] ++ Imperial Commander's Armoury [-1CP]: 1 additional Heirloom of Conquest + HQ + Elysian Company Commander [3 PL, 40pts]: Krak grenades, Lasgun and Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Relic: Kurov's Aquila Elysian Company Commander [3 PL, 40pts]: Krak grenades, Lasgun and Auxiliary Grenade Launcher + Troops + 3x Elysian Drop Trooper Squad [4 PL, 50pts]: . 9x Guardsman w/Lasgun, Frag & Krak Grenades. Sergeant: Lasgun, Frag & Krak Grenades + Elites + 3x Elysian Sniper Squad [3 PL, 21pts]. 3x Elysian Sniper Team: Sniper rifle ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [25 PL, 350pts, ] ++ Armoury of Baal [-1CP]: 1 additional Relics of Baal + HQ + Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: 5. Gift of Foresight, Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord + Elites + Company Champion [4 PL, 64pts]: Combat shield, Jump Pack, Master-crafted power sword Company Veterans [9 PL, 84pts]: Jump Pack. 3x Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm shield Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 78pts]: Angelus boltgun, Death mask, Power fist, Standard of Sacrifice ++ Total: [113 PL, 1750pts, 10CP] ++ Reworking the general strategy I'd aim for: It should have the firepower to take on VEQ/KEQ with the Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, Sanguinary Ancient and Smash Captain Warlord. For area denial we spread out with the 3 groups of AM (each group has a Company Commander, Infantry Squad and Sniper Unit). Elysian lets us choose what elements to deepstrike. For GEQ/MEQ we have Intercessors, Aggressors, Company Veterans and Lasgun Infantry. While the Assassin (probably Vindicare or Culexis), Company Champion and Snipers focus on taking out Characters. Warlord / Ancient take out VEQ/KEQ in close combat. The Warlord uses the Captain Slamgenius build and strategems. Angel's Wings lets him re-roll charges and gives immunity to overwatch. He also gets Black Rage + Red Rampage + Gift of Foresight. 7 attacks (re-roll 1s) at S8 AP-3 D3 with +1 to Wound (so everything in the game on a 2+), using Honour the Chapter to swing again if required (pumping out 20+ wounds on a knight). Then T5 and a 3++ and 5+++, re-rolling 1s. Company Veterans can take wounds for any character, and get to use the FnP from the Standard of Sacrifice on it too, to act as a screen for the characters once their target is destroyed (providing some protection from counter-fire). Company Champion is there to threaten any character trying to take on the Jump Pack units, as well as to take out any airborne units that come near. Plan would be for the Librarian to advance to a central objective, then use The Beacon Angelis on the First Intercessor unit (who should now be in rapid fire range). Second Intercessor unit with Plasma Inceptors is in Teleportarium to use where needed. They have plenty of shots and toughness of 5, so should be able to take on most things (ideally with re-roll support from the watch captain in turn 2 or 3). Watch Master is there for rerolls and to protect the final Heavy intercessor unit who ideally sit on an objective near deployment. Alternative tactic is to put the First and Second Intercessor Units in the Teleportarium and the Librarian then uses the Beacon Angelis on the Watch Master when they all drop around him in turn 2. Another option is to combat squad the first intercessor unit and use them to support the scouts on objectives. 11CP, Kurov's Aquila and The Veritas Vitae gives plenty of flexibility with Strategems. Returning CP - 1 per battle round (so up to 5 in a game), plus any strategems used in deployment (no limit in deployment as long as the model with the relic is on the board before a strategem is used). Anyone had experience in 8th edition running a supporting guard battalion with lots of snipers like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 11, 2019 Author Share Posted February 11, 2019 Finished painting a Primaris Captain, testing out the camo pattern and general colour scheme I want to go with. Haven't done the base yet, but plan on using Citadel Barbed Bracken and Creeping Vines to add to give it a jungle theme. Just not sure where to start because I've never done a detailed base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Excellent work on the CAPT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Colors are good. I like the Burning Blade effect. Especially like the camo on the cloak. Have you happened to look at Dawn of Shadows ;) , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Looks great the camo is well done! :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 Have you happened to look at Dawn of Shadows , Not until you pointed it out just now, haha. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353714-dawn-of-shadows-etl-prep-event-2019-214-thru-415/ To confirm it's 2 months - 15 Feb to 15 Apr and I need to vow before the 15th which models I will finish building in those 2 months? Can I do a black undercoat then a single green base layer on top of certain areas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 You can do multiple vows for preparaion for the ETL event. The vows for DoS can be done anytime during the DoS. They just need to be completed by April 15th. Everyone prepares how they assemble and paint their models differently. Down of Shadows is designed to help motivate us get our models ready as possible for ETL without breaking any of ETL rules. This means you can fully assemble, or partially assemble as your process calls for ... and apply one color of primer to the model or unit ... and STOP ;) The ETL is the internets largest most funniest (yeah its not a word so what lol) painting event (on B&C at least) so any real painting of the models will take place during that event. As an example ... I use Army Painter colored primer paint for my Warhawks. I use their Desert Yellow for the main body of the model and Army Green for backpacks, pauldrons, and things like holsters and tabards. For Dawn of Shadows I will be building and primering with Desert Yellow the main bodies .... and STOP. If I were using a black or white primer then I would STOP and apply my Chapter colors during ETL. (Also please don't work on bases during Dawn of Shadows. That is something we need to save for ETL). Dawn of Shadows is a forum friendly way to encourage us to clean our modelling tables of current projects (regardless of Faction) and prepare the models we plan on swearing to the Raven Guard for ETL 2019. I am going to copy and paste this post in the DoS thread hoping it helps anyone else who might have similar questions. Thank you Dracos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Overall I like it and very good job on the camo. I think the green accents (inside of cape, shoulder pad emblems, etc.) might look better if they were a shade or two darker. It could be the lighting but right now they're not too far off from your main green and they might pop a bit more if they're darker while still maintaining your desire to have the muted/camo look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 Overall I like it and very good job on the camo. I think the green accents (inside of cape, shoulder pad emblems, etc.) might look better if they were a shade or two darker. It could be the lighting but right now they're not too far off from your main green and they might pop a bit more if they're darker while still maintaining your desire to have the muted/camo look. That's a good idea, I used castellan green as the darker shade, should I choose a darker base or just do a shade over the top? what would you recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Either would probably work. I think it'll depend on what look you want to go for. A shade and then highlight with the castellan green to bring back up a few areas might work well. For the cape you could feather the green onto the 'raised' parts of the underside to provide a subtle and gradual highlight. I do that with the accent emblems on my current paint scheme. I use Vallejo Neutral gray as a base, then shade with nuln oil, then highlight with Neutral gray again. You can see that done on the chest piece here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 Either would probably work. I think it'll depend on what look you want to go for. A shade and then highlight with the castellan green to bring back up a few areas might work well. For the cape you could feather the green onto the 'raised' parts of the underside to provide a subtle and gradual highlight. Ok cool, I might give it a go darkening the recesses on the underside of the cloak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 If I wanted to plan for about 1000 points in another Battalion to add to the above list, including Lias Issodon, what would you recommend? I was thinking Lias as warlord with Storm of Fire in a Raven Guard Battallion with a Lieutenant, 3x5 Scouts, 3 Boltstorm Aggressors (advanced 9" with SFFS), 3 Inceptors, 10xSternguard with SiB, Company Ancient, Apothecary on Bike. Trying to get a bubble in turn 2, first advancing the Aggressors again, then landing inceptors and the lias bomb with Lieutenant, Ancient and Sternguard. Use masterful marksmen on the Sternguard. Thats a hell of a lot of shots, with re-rolls to hit and wound. The rest of the army has plenty of anti-vehicle, this battalion is all about the dakka. OR Can I use another Chapter with Lias so I can benefit from one of the specialist formations? I know he only has RAPTORS and not RAVEN GUARD, but I'm unsure of the rules? Is there anything stopping him being in a Blood Angels Detachment for example (as long as I don't use any special characters)? Or what about Ultramarines or White Scars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 From looking around, the below is what I 'think' I can do with Lias: I have an Space Marine detachment painted in the colours of the Raptors Chapter with Lias Issodon, who has the <RAPTORS> keyword. These are my options of running it. I take a fluffwise approach, and use the Raven Guard successor rules, staying as <RAPTORS>. I get the RG doctrines, but can't use their Warlord Traits or Relics (can use the generic SM ones though), no <RAVEN GUARD> unique characters like Shrike, but I can take Lias. I take take a mix of fluff and game potential, and count my army as having the <RAVEN GUARD> chapter. I get to use all their Warlord Traits, Relics and characters like Shrike, but I CANNOT take Lias, because he has the <RAPTORS> Keyword, and this cannot be changed out. I choose something which might better represent the playstyle I want to go for and use Blood Angels successor rules, staying as <RAPTORS>. I get to take BA units and doctrines, but no access to their Warlord traits, only one Relic (as per their codex - Archangel's Shard), and cannot take <BLOOD ANGELS> unique characters, like Dante. I can still take Lias. I go all out on in-game effect, and use the <BLOOD ANGELS> rules. I have full access to all Blood Angels units, Warlord Traits and characters like Dante, but Lias CANNOT be taken, because he has the <RAPTORS> keyword, and this cannot be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAR Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Here’s what my group allows me to do: I can use all the Ravenguard rules but can’t take Shrike as he is a chapter master also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 I would hope for what war009 does. Technically since my Spectral Sicarii are a successor I'm not allowed to use their traits/relics but I still will because I think that's dumb. I don't play in tournaments so I'm not too worried about that. If I had to play against someone who would not let me play with all RG rules at a store I'd probably not play that person because that's already starting the game off on the wrong foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 From the Imperial Armour Index FAQ: Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets within this book? A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Deathwatch. So I could potentially even run a <RAPTORS> detachment as Space Wolves or Deathwatch, with their Chapter Tactics and Strategems, but I couldn't take warlord traits or relics (I assume)? Lias with a Jump Pack Wolf Guard Battle Leader, 3 packs of Blood Claws with Terminator Pack Leaders, and some Reivers in a Stalker Pack. Giving access to some cool strategem top help charge from reserves. Blood Scent (2 CP): use it on a monster or infantry unit that is wounded or is missing models. Stalker units gain +1 to wound against them.Pack Killers (1 CP): after a STALKER PACK successfully charged, Pick another STALKER PACK unit they roll 3D6 for charge and discard lowest. Or use him with 3 units of Long Fangs, with his buff they re-roll all hits and all wounds. The Wolf's Eye (1 CP): In the shooting phase, a selected unit of Long Fangs can either re-roll all failed hit rolls or all failed wound rolls for the duration of the phase. Or come out of reserve with Wulfen, Wolf Guard and an Ancient and/or Wolf Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 I would hope for what war009 does. Technically since my Spectral Sicarii are a successor I'm not allowed to use their traits/relics but I still will because I think that's dumb. I don't play in tournaments so I'm not too worried about that. If I had to play against someone who would not let me play with all RG rules at a store I'd probably not play that person because that's already starting the game off on the wrong foot. I saw a post on Warhammer Community where Reecius used Raptors and Lias as a RG successor, but he only used the generic SM relics. Still had access to RG strategems though. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/29/the-nova-open-warhammer-40000-the-gauntlet-is-thrown/ It seems like the main issue is chapter-specific warlord traits and relics for successors. Though it seems like most people wouldn't have an issue with using him in a Raven Guard detachment with Raven Guard traits (on other characters) and relics. Noting that Battlescribe only lets us give him generic SM warlord traits. Would be interested how that is handled for DA/BA/SW successors - do they have to use the generic SM traits and relics (or can they use their own)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Wulfen, Slamguinius, psychic dreadnoughts with tiny wings, loyal 32...is it just me, or does this have nothing at all to do with Raptors? Sounds like the old special forces reenactment group logic: "SF are pragmatic. I have this and find it pragmatic, so it's legal for my SF of choice. They never actually used anything like this, but in theory they could, because I think it's pragmatic." If you want to do Raptors, maybe stick to their rules, and see where it leads you - being sneaky and using ambushes doesn't have anything to do with the BA approach of just getting into everyone's face with a thunder hammer and murdering stuff, painting the models green instead of red doesn't change that fact. We've already had lengthy discussions about how to do this, and the vanguard stuff (which should fit perfectly) isn't even out yet. The only component that would be fitting in fluff and easy to model as WYSIWYG would be the deathwatch stuff - marines came back, kept the fancy wargear, and still do the marksman bolter thing. From the Imperial Armour Index FAQ: Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets within this book? A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Deathwatch. So I could potentially even run a <RAPTORS> detachment as Space Wolves or Deathwatch, with their Chapter Tactics and Strategems, but I couldn't take warlord traits or relics (I assume)? The keyword you can replace is <CHAPTER>, not RAPTORS. <CHAPTER> is the one for generic units - it's written into every vehicle/dread/whatever that has no specific chapter, and the FAQ question rules out Legion of the Damned dreadnoughts/tanks and such. But Lias has RAPTORS instead, so no, there is no way it can be replaced. Also, as an opponent, I'd have my issues with everything from scouts to PA to terminators to primaris being drawn from primaris models. Drawing the PA guys from 3 or maybe more codices while painting everything green doesn't help either. If you want to go to tournaments, I guess most won't allow that because of WYSIWYG. And outside of tournaments, such cherrypicking and min-maxing is not appropriate, unless your locals are hardcore tournament players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAR Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 I would hope for what war009 does. Technically since my Spectral Sicarii are a successor I'm not allowed to use their traits/relics but I still will because I think that's dumb. I don't play in tournaments so I'm not too worried about that. If I had to play against someone who would not let me play with all RG rules at a store I'd probably not play that person because that's already starting the game off on the wrong foot. I saw a post on Warhammer Community where Reecius used Raptors and Lias as a RG successor, but he only used the generic SM relics. Still had access to RG strategems though. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/29/the-nova-open-warhammer-40000-the-gauntlet-is-thrown/ It seems like the main issue is chapter-specific warlord traits and relics for successors. Though it seems like most people wouldn't have an issue with using him in a Raven Guard detachment with Raven Guard traits (on other characters) and relics. Noting that Battlescribe only lets us give him generic SM warlord traits. Would be interested how that is handled for DA/BA/SW successors - do they have to use the generic SM traits and relics (or can they use their own)? so one of the things I should mention also....Lias is never my warlord. My Captain is my warlord it depends on which version 10th company doesn't use the RG warlord trait the new Captain (company to be designated) may use it tho. Either way both captains dont see the table together yet but are always carrying primarchs wrath as their Relic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Ambit, I’m an old man an old tournament player back when allies were a thing even in 2nd edition. Back then they had percentages an army had to go by. there were fewer faction limits believe it or not so I kind of get what you’re going for. The important thing you need to keep in mind is you have three detachments max to work with and each detachment needs to visually represent what the model is capable of (wysiwyg) and each detachment must be visibly distinct enough so as your opponent can it be confused by what they represent. Raptors as Raptors = check Deathwatch as Raptors all with Deathwatch pauldrons = sort of check? If it were me I might also paint the head or arm with the Deathwatch pauldron black to make it a tad more distinct. You basically have Raptors who count as <Raptors> and Raptors (DW shoulder pads) who count as <Deathwatch> Perfectly legal and if modelled right will look just fine. It’s a pretty complex set of hoops your jumping through , some think some confusion is understandable. Go slow and steady is my advice. Get a feel for how a core of 500 points of Raptors plays, then step up nex t with a core of 500 points Deathwatch. See which really suit your game style and he the most enjoyment out of ... then add you next 500 :) As far as rules ... basically your playing with two different armies. You can use Raven Guard Stratagem and Chapter Tactics for Raptors but you can’t use the RG Relics or Warlord trait. You can use the generic ones however. None of which can be used on any of the Deathwatch army. Same thing with Deathwatch. The equipment , stratagems and anti-xenos shenanigans will only apply the the Deathwatch pauldron (black head or arm) models and only them. Okay enough of that for now I hope that helps and anything I can do for clarity let me know my man. Lastly. If you plan of using any regular marines I would focus the older marines as the Raptors and the Primaris as the Death/Raptors. There are reasons for this and some will disagree for excellent reasons but I think it not only synergies better this way but mighty help with maintaining distinction between the (two in one) armies. :) Best of Luck on the build Dracos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambit Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 Thanks for your input guys, probably getting too excited about collecting the different unique units from each codex. I'll scrap the non generic SM detachment idea for Lias. I'll also need to make sure that they are all in separate detachments and that they are modelled in a way that makes them easily distinguishable, so as not to cause any confusion. In your opinion, would the below be acceptable in a tournament? Deathwatch Battalion as Raptors, but still using <DEATHWATCH> keyword - All Primaris, painted green, distinctive left shoulder pad. Kneepad insignia for different units. Deathwatch Relics Valid. https://www.shapeways.com/product/3D6C9KZEF/60x-xenos-hunters-shoulder-insignia-pack?optionId=65526225&li=marketplace Blood Angels Supreme Command as Raptors, but still using <BLOOD ANGELS> keyword - Painted green, but more Red/Gold elements, Blonde Hair, distinctive left shoulder pad. Kneepad insignia for different units. BA Warlord and Relics valid. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Blood-Angels-Upgrades Raven Guard Battalion, using <RAPTORS> keyword - Lias + Generic SM Units, distinctive left shoulder pad. Kneepad insignia for different units. Only generic SM Relics available, but not on Lias. https://www.shapeways.com/product/WZGWGVWSU/60x-red-ravens-shoulder-insignia-pack?optionId=65355334&li=marketplace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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