Ishagu Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I reckon the Elite Veteran units will be chapter specific. Sword bros for Templars, Wolf Guard for Wolves, Keshig for WS, Sanguinary Guard for Angels etc. Yeah this is a great way to do it imo. The Veterans should be more themed to each chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 If they are really going with 30k inspiration, it's how I see it done to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I'd cheer for this if I had any confidence it would actually lead to me ever getting a unit this way. I'm sure Salamanders, White scars, Iron hands etc would also look at this proposal with a hefty amount of sceptism or even dread if they were to go down this path. At least with a generic veteran unit, everyone will at very least get something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I'm sure we will have our generic veterans, but I can see each chapter getting their veterans according to their modus operandi. Just like 30k legions. Its my personal hope. So far I haven't been impressed with Primaris, and I would like to see it change. This would be a good step in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I'd prefer it if the marine battle roles matched the actual unit designations. This has typically always been the case with legacymarines. Veteran units were always elites, and only veteran units were elites (and of course things like dreadnoughts).. the only exception I can think of is assault centurions which are marine role: Close support, game role: Elites. Also any vehicle since they are outside of the usual company structure. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 how about wishlisting Reivers into the Troop slot. Compared to Infiltrators they are Plain Janes. I'd honestly rather Reivers become more elite. While I totally agree on wanting Marines to be more elite, if as feared Astartes will eventually be all Primaris, we need a cheaper Troop choice. I was hoping it Infiltrators would be pointed proportionally to Intercessors as Scouts are to Tacticals. Marines need the ability - even more than ever with all the added Stratagems - to be able to fill out a Battalion (I prefer Double Battalions) and still have points for units (not HQs) that really bring the pain. Reivers are at least more comparative point wise than the Infiltrators are looking at the moment. I’d rather avoid having to have the 32 to get enough CP to run a proper Marine army. I keep preaching patience as the Primaris line is obviously not complete so we are looking at an incomplete puzzle. Reivers at the moment are fairly lame (Infiltrators having much more elite rules) and it would make sense to me to move such a vanilla unit from Elite to Troop ... as I suspect their base rules really are t going to change unless we get a real overhaul on a Codex. That’s why its wish listing :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I reckon the Elite Veteran units will be chapter specific. Sword bros for Templars, Wolf Guard for Wolves, Keshig for WS, Sanguinary Guard for Angels etc. Yeah this is a great way to do it imo. The Veterans should be more themed to each chapter. Nice Sete. I could get totally behind this flavoring of Chapters not part of the Big4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Of course I would be behind flavors for everyone not a big 4, i just will only believe it when i see it. It's just that going from 1 new unit for everyone to 5+ units that are chapter specific feels really unlikely. Aside from IF/CF noone outside the big 4 have even gotten a primaris upgrade sprue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Of course I would be behind flavors for everyone not a big 4, i just will only believe it when i see it. It's just that going from 1 new unit for everyone to 5+ units that are chapter specific feels really unlikely. Aside from IF/CF noone outside the big 4 have even gotten a primaris upgrade sprue. I don't want to have high expectations as well, but i want to see more sprues. The fact that IF/CF got one (along with an index around the same release period) makes me hope for good things to come eventually. An index for BT with an upgrade sprue on the style of the old for primaris, and i personally would be all sorted for the future bar rework IC. God knows i need more BT pads and there are no DW ones available. Don't want to use transfers like some common animal. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_von_Speer Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Even if the models were decent looking, their rules are terrible. Overcosted, low synergy, redundancy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Let's get our negativity in check here. I've just been on the Facebook page and people are so negative it's a bit comical. The rules in the boxset won't be final in the long run. No one has to buy the box yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy-inquisitor Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Even if the models were decent looking, their rules are terrible. Overcosted, low synergy, redundancy... I gave up on that when it got the Tenebrous Curse rules all wrong - along with the usual "it's not as good as <other faction> so its junk" attitude coming through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstSonofHorus Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Even if the models were decent looking, their rules are terrible. Overcosted, low synergy, redundancy... I gave up on that when it got the Tenebrous Curse rules all wrong - along with the usual "it's not as good as <other faction> so its junk" attitude coming through. Yup, Winters is normally really good but this was a silly video. Nothing should be exempt from criticism, but what was being said was rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy-inquisitor Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Let's get our negativity in check here. I've just been on the Facebook page and people are so negative it's a bit comical. The rules in the boxset won't be final in the long run. No one has to buy the box yet. Half of the units in the box are disappointing. The other half look OK - not game-breakingly stupid like Ynnari or Castellans but OK. The negativity around that is amusing. I am getting what I think has real value in my games now-ish (i.e. when I have time to build and paint them) : Librarian Eliminators Suppressors At the moment the other characters just don't make the cut and the Infiltrators are too situational on playing against armies with deep-strike shenanigans at their current points value. I like the infiltrator models but I am in no rush to pick them up right now and just add them to my already depressing painting backlog, I am happy to wait for the full kits. If we have a codex update that fixes the problems with any of these units I will be happy to pick up the models then, I suspect we will but also (pure guesswork) that it is a few months away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 His opinion isn't invalid just because he got one rule wrong. Bottom line though, immaterial of such minor details, this release is exactly what it was designed to be - a light recon force. As such a light recon force is very unlikely to be particularly powerful and I wonder why people are disappointed with that? There's an argument to be had about the choice of a light recon force being wrong for Marines (I've never thought the concept sits well with Marines anyway. That's why Scouts should have been expanded with weapons qnd equipment but that's another topic) but if you welcome a light recon force then you should accept it for what it is. *shrugs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 it didn't need to be "very powerful" it just needed to be reasonably costed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 I don't know. I think folk expected filth! Not all but certainly a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorin Helm-splitter Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 His opinion isn't invalid just because he got one rule wrong. Bottom line though, immaterial of such minor details, this release is exactly what it was designed to be - a light recon force. As such a light recon force is very unlikely to be particularly powerful and I wonder why people are disappointed with that? There's an argument to be had about the choice of a light recon force being wrong for Marines (I've never thought the concept sits well with Marines anyway. That's why Scouts should have been expanded with weapons qnd equipment but that's another topic) but if you welcome a light recon force then you should accept it for what it is. *shrugs* People are disapointed with this release for 3 main reasons. 1. The first mistake was GW comparing it to tooth and claw, and wake the dead. There is a big difference between a box set of easy build mini's and full kits. Alot of people lost interest as soon as GW revealed that fact, and it doesn't help that its price point is higher than expected. 2. Some questionable design choices, supressors make no sense. They have heavy weapons but are supposed to shoot at infantry, and have a 12" move that they get punished for using. The chaos force has similiar issues (2 greater possessed that can affect 3 other models 2 of which deepstrike, and 1 that is faster than they are). 3. The points aren't very realistic. If the base infantry had chainswords & auto bolt rifles and were priced at 22 points, alot of people wouldn't buy this box set. If it came with a stripped down replusor with very little weapons that costed 200 points, people wouldn't buy this boxset. Those are two of the units that have been wishlisted since the first primaris wave but people aren't going to buy overpriced mono build models. That fact that it is a light recon force doesn't really matter. If it had been a close combat themed army and the points were high, and some of the units didn't make sense people would have the same reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triszin Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 I was looking at the eliminators Pouchs on their right leg/arm side. looks verily similar to the imperial pouch with power cabling coming out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Let's get our negativity in check here. I've just been on the Facebook page and people are so negative it's a bit comical. The rules in the boxset won't be final in the long run. No one has to buy the box yet. They deserve our negativity. If the rules in the box aren't the final rules, then that needs to be explained. If they're final, for now, then that's frankly not good enough. Ishagu, I want these Primaris units to be as good as you already feel they are, but I'm just not nearly as much of a fan boy in that front as you are. You want folks to have patience? Need to have a reason to be patient because the only precedent we have here is an 18 month wait between launch and rule fix. That is the definition of unacceptable, and I think the fanbase knows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 I don't feel they are in a place they need to be at all. Everything is too expensive. I'm just not getting too upset just yet as I feel the new codex and rule ammendments aren't too far away. It's disappointing rules wise for sure, but I'm hoping things will be better by the time I've actually got some units ready and painted lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Quixote Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 I think people are getting disappointed because they want the new Primaris models to be something ruleswise that they are not. They are not straight replacements for scouts or other existing units. They are units that have their own niche uses. GW seem to be sticking to their statement of 'marines aren't going anywhere anytime soon' by trying to deliberately find other roles for primaris. Due to this they have ended up being put in some seemingly odd design spaces. I get that people want to run just Primaris forces, but by doing that you're deliberately hamstringing yourself at the moment. Just as people like me who don't like a lot of the new model designs are doing the same. Although those snipers are tempting me. I don't want a separate codex for Primaris simply because all marine players lose something at that point - choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Sorry Brother Quixote but tipping st windmills. GW flat out says there are all Primaris Chapters so it’s fair for players to want a set of cohesive and effective rules that make running said Chapter in the tablentop competitive with any other army. If I invest a similar amount of money as an Eldar player in their products it’s only fair to expect I am able to play on a relatively equal playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Sorry Brother Quixote but tipping st windmills. GW flat out says there are all Primaris Chapters so it’s fair for players to want a set of cohesive and effective rules that make running said Chapter in the tablentop competitive with any other army. If I invest a similar amount of money as an Eldar player in their products it’s only fair to expect I am able to play on a relatively equal playing field. Absolutely correct! We're experimenting on a lot of different and unusual competitive lists with 8th edition with a group of friends. We're going a little bit counter meta, and we've made some pretty interesting discoveries with Marines. One of the nutshells is : - Primaris can be run as a standalone army without sacrificing efficiency - OG Marines can be run as a standalone army without sacrificing efficiency - OG Marines and Primaris can be run jointly without sacrificing efficiency Primaris units aren't better than Marines units, they have a different role even with slight differences. The only units that are really close in their slot is the Troops : - Intercessors have more survivability but less damage per point than Tactical Marines. Roles are reversed when facing DMG 2+ weapons. - Infiltrators are the same but for Scouts. Roles are similarily reversed when facing DMG 2+ weapons. Primaris Support Units and direct comparables from the OG roster : - Inceptors : No direct comparable, they're a glass cannon unit. Closest would be podded Sternguard. - Hellblasters : 'Tactical Devastators', Devastators are better at long range support and have choices of weapons - Aggressors : Assault Centurions would be the closest comparative? Aggressors are faster at the expense of armor - Reivers : Assault Marines would be the comparable, but Reivers have more survivability and less mobility for the same points - Repulsor : It's Razorbacks, but unique use due to being only boarded by Primaris - Suppressors : Closest to Devastators, more damage points for points, but less tank as the unit's damage is decreasing quite early. (6 wounds kill 3 autocannons, while 6 Devastator wounds still leave the heavy guns on the table) - Eliminators : Quite a unique role, more like long range old Sternguards So, no, Primaris aren't really better units. Yes they are similar to some of the Marines units, but it's a tradeoff in some stats at the benefit of other stats. Ok, ok, I forget the Redemptor Dreads. Yeah they're kinda better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Nice comparative analysis given the actual disparities involved. I've seen the Repulsor compared to the Razorback before but honestly I see it closer to the LandRaider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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