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Astra Militarum win LVO 2019


GuardDaddy

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Thoughts?

 

Castellan wins LVO, IG sits back and watches the carnage.

Yes the Castellan died and generalmanship won the day.

 

Personally I hear and see a lot of hate on guard with these lists. I think its the synergies that the two offer which makes them more powerful than the sum of the parts.

 

However I fear that guard and castellans (not their synergy) will be branded the problems and nerfed in light of this win especially if its repeated at Adepticon pre spring FAQ.

 

I do think IKs do need to be toned down some. Even Shadowswords seem to be off tje table in favour of IKs

 

Edit.

 

I do think the Vigilus artillery detachment was a bad idea from a competitive stand point. Basilisks were already a strong unit the added bonuses and abilities will only cause guard to be scrutinized later

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The IK get taken along due to the invulnerable save. A shadowsword has the same base armor save as most knights, but has no invulnerable save. A Knight Crusader with rapid fire battle cannons costs as much as a shadowsword. While it has only 24 wounds, you can give it a 4+ invulnerable save that can increase to a 3+ invulnerable save with rotate ion shields. It has a better BS and WS.

 

This list surprisingly enough didn't take any basilisks to the fight. I don't think that the guard will get too badly nerfed, because they aren't the best army anymore. There are still bad matchups for the guard, namely all eldar factions and thousand sons. Eldar don't really have bad matchups.

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Guard are extremely strong. Best army this go around. Throw in knights and cherry pick strong units from other lists and the salt will flow freely. Hope wholesale nerfs to units aren’t the end result. TOs can implement any rules they want. No soup? Add it to your tournament rules.

 

I hate the fact they try and balance this game on the tournament scene.

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I do not get it: an EW artillery detachment for just 2 wyverns?

What is the point and how did he make good use of what is normally considered a poor unit? Just for the stratagem to slow down a unit instead of shooting?

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I do not get it: an EW artillery detachment for just 2 wyverns?

What is the point and how did he make good use of what is normally considered a poor unit? Just for the stratagem to slow down a unit instead of shooting?

It's confusing to me as well. 3 mortar squads get more shots than 2 wyverns and costs and only costs 99 points. A basilisk is generally more effective than a leman russ battle cannon and is barely more expensive than a wyvern. For the same price as 2 wyverns he could have run 3 mortar squads and a basilisk. I guess aerial spotters make them more accurate than mortars, but it's still inferior.

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Actually, I think that mortars have the better survivability. Wyverns don't need to be in line of sight, but you can't hide them from vehicles forever. Mortars can stay inside buildings and with ITC rules, they will be immune to shooting. There is only 2 ways to force mortars out of cover with ITC rules. Charge them with infantry or shoot them with indirect fire. Charging them is difficult because your mortars can target infantry moving up the board (that's their purpose). Firing most indirect fire weapons at what amounts to infantry, is usually not the best target priority. The only indirect fire weapons that make sense for that kind of target are mortars or the frag cannons that Deathwatch players like.
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Sadly was unable to watch it, but on the topic of the Wyvern I would imagine it was horde clearing and the suppressive fire strat that made him take them. They're more universally useful than the Hydras as a cheap option for that. And there's also the factor that everyone knows Basilisks are good. Wyvern might be more or a question mark for some opponents. And let's be honest...S4, rerolling all wounds (and all failed hits with Aerial Spotters) is not bad against low Toughness opponents like Eldar or Harlequins. And who cares about AP if everything has 4++ anyway?

 

I'd love to see that game in all honesty...he had a few odd choices like that. Rough Riders with Plasma (or in general) aren't exactly high performers either for example. And I think there was a full unit of Bullgryns, which I can only imagine wasn't shot to pieces becauss the Castellan was essentially just a huge Distraction Carnifex.

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The Wyverns were for light anti infantry duty but he mostly used the supressive fire strat which can limit the mobility of a key unit.

 

Like Agents of Vect sometimes stopping your enemy doing something they rely on to win can be worth a premium.

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From what I hear on Reddit there is massive guard hate and the cries for 5pt (and even 6pt) guardsmen is back more than ever. Mainly for Loyal32 rather than guard as a whole, but nerfing them would nerf us a lot more. They really need to do something about allies and the CP abuse.

 

I hope they don't nerf guard CP though. I had a 1750pt game last night, started with 18CP after paying for both Artillery (for shooting twice) and Tank (relic BC) specialist detachments and I burned through them all by turn 3! The alpha strike on that is absolutely deadly when you get lucky and take first turn.

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The Artillery company on the wyverns is incredibly flexible. 

 

LVO is known for being dense with LoS blocking terrain and the indirect fire of lots of guard weapons massive. Remember you can also slow a unit down, or cancel overwatch using the Wyvern with one strategy, and double fire the other!

 

That's why knowing anti-horde needed that combo so powerful, especially against eldar T3. Personally the thought of 3x wyvern AND 3x morters looks very powerful (for 400ish points).

 

The bullgryn squad gives the army a close combat element, and in the games I saw it worked both to eliminate enemy squads, and also absorb entire rounds of enemy shooting. It was a beast of a unit in that sense.

 

The castellan did what it does! It is a top notch anti vehicle especially, weapons platform.

 

For me the strength of the list was its balance. It had the tools to do well against a variety of lists. 8 from 8 in your mates garage is good! let alone at LVO

 

No single element did well in every game. But you hit one area hard, another area does the work.

 

In the final he went up against a very unbalanced list, designed specifically to counter the guard+castellan meta. In that case he played well with tools he had.

 

My final comment would be about painting. I was massively encouraged to see so many people playing with basic paint jobs. Getting out there and gaming is such a great part of the hobby, and as someone who struggles to do that at times I was very motivated to play more, even if I haven't got my army exactly where I want painting wise yet.

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From what I hear on Reddit there is massive guard hate and the cries for 5pt (and even 6pt) guardsmen is back more than ever. Mainly for Loyal32 rather than guard as a whole, but nerfing them would nerf us a lot more. They really need to do something about allies and the CP abuse.

 

I hope they don't nerf guard CP though. I had a 1750pt game last night, started with 18CP after paying for both Artillery (for shooting twice) and Tank (relic BC) specialist detachments and I burned through them all by turn 3! The alpha strike on that is absolutely deadly when you get lucky and take first turn.

 

Yeah I get the howling at the moon from people about guard, ironically though 6 point infantry could have been paid for by dropping roughriders basically! list would still have worked generally.

 

I actually think you have alluded the solve here and that's CP. Make them faction keyword specific. Knights then become less powerful, and alternatives more appealing. 

 

At the minute the meta clearly has two kings of hill. Knights + 'guard' and 'all the eldar soup'. 

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I find it both amusing and depressing that so many 'players' still fail to understand that guardsman cost is not the issue at all.

 

Also, it is pretty obvious that GW's rationale with cheap troops is: increase the cost of those which can be fielded in large (20+) units: see conscripts and cultists. Due to the way auras, startgems and buffs work, those are the units prone to abuse.

 

But then again, I am 110% convinced that most whiners on the internet are people who play very little actual games, if any at all.

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I find it both amusing and depressing that so many 'players' still fail to understand that guardsman cost is not the issue at all.

 

Also, it is pretty obvious that GW's rationale with cheap troops is: increase the cost of those which can be fielded in large (20+) units: see conscripts and cultists. Due to the way auras, startgems and buffs work, those are the units prone to abuse.

 

But then again, I am 110% convinced that most whiners on the internet are people who play very little actual games, if any at all.

This win will illicit cries of "the guard are OP!", but the real problem is soup. Knights shouldn't be a stand alone army. They should be the admech super-heavy units and that's it. Castellan should also get a point increase.

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I don't really see the logic there. Why would Knights only belong to AdMech? You have Imperial Knightg Houses just like you have Mechanicus ones. Furthermore, what difference would that make in 8th ed? You take them in their own detachments no matter what.

 

For my part I'm happy for the guy. By all accounts he played very well and deserved the win. Even if he used boring Catachans to do it. :p

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Genestealer cults might be the saviour here *Heresy*!

 

The half CP's for adding Guard detachment is spot on and could easily be introduced game wide. You pick a Primary codex (has to be the one you spend the most points on) and allied battalions from any other codex grant you only half the CP's rounding up. Cheap Guard battalions just got far less appealing.

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Genestealer cults might be the saviour here *Heresy*!

 

The half CP's for adding Guard detachment is spot on and could easily be introduced game wide. You pick a Primary codex (has to be the one you spend the most points on) and allied battalions from any other codex grant you only half the CP's rounding up. Cheap Guard battalions just got far less appealing.

That wouldn't actually change a thing for the problem lists - the Guard would still generate full CP and the Super heavy Auxiliary Detachment (be it House Raven Castellan or House Krast Crusader) would still generate 0 CP like currently.

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But are people spending more points on the Guard or on Knights in the really powerful lists? If they spend more points on Knights they become the "Primary" and then Guard detachments only generate half CP's.

 

If Guard are winning easily because of one allied Knight, then maybe Guard really are a bit OP (shhhh!). Why can't Marines win by just adding a Knight?

 

Honestly I'd be delighted if CP's and Stratagems never existed at all, by far my least favourite part of this addition.

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But are people spending more points on the Guard or on Knights in the really powerful lists? If they spend more points on Knights they become the "Primary" and then Guard detachments only generate half CP's.

 

If Guard are winning easily because of one allied Knight, then maybe Guard really are a bit OP (shhhh!). Why can't Marines win by just adding a Knight?

 

Honestly I'd be delighted if CP's and Stratagems never existed at all, by far my least favourite part of this addition.

 

On that note, why wasn't Chaos winning by including a knight ally, the renegade knights are just as good.

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