The first eight Grandmasters revealed...nearly

[Angel_of_Blood]

Spoilers for the Burried Dagger:

 

So, we have a lot of the eight revealed to us now:

 

Koios: Tylos Rubio - Ultramarine

Yotun: Unamed Space Wolf. Is a psyker, don’t recall Theodor Ruttveld being one. Maybe Bodvar Bjarki was recruited.

Ianius: Revuel Arvida/Magnus - Thousand Son

Satire: Vardas Ison - Blood Angel

Iapto: Severrian - Luna Wolf

Ogen: Unamed Raven Guard, presumably Balsar Kuthuri or Antaka Cyvaan

Epithemius: Unknown, though from Pandorax, certainly a Dark Angel, maybe the Nemean. He says ‘Never had a true name before’ guess some would argue that sounds like Cypher

Khyron: Unknown. Hatched-eyed and carrying a staff. Watchful like a hawk and utterly silent. We know Fel Zharost is around though.

 

Then there should have been nine...

Crius: Garviel Loken - Luna Wolf. Who turned Malcador and the Emperor down as he does not believe that is his fate.

 

So there they are. Some still open to a little debate. I imagine people will still champion Khyron being Sevatar, though to me, even that very brief description, namely how utterly silent he is, doesn’t sound like Sev.

[Captain_Krash]

Khyron: Unknown. Hatched-eyed and carrying a staff. Watchful like a hawk and utterly silent. We know Fel Zharost is around though.

 

I thought it was a glaive....did they retcon that?

 

I mean maybe it's just me...but I'll be disappointed if it isn't Sevatar the quote just screams him...

 

Khyron Grand Master of the Eighth Brotherhood
‘Already, you exalt me for my triumphs,
When I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries.
Victory is nothing more than survival.
It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers.’

 

 

Krash

[DarkChaplain]

Hah, I won my bet on Yotun, then.

[b1soul]

Maybe it's a mind-wiped Sevatar?

 

Admittedly, I never liked the Sevatar theory...screamed "special snowflake" a bit too much for me.

[Son of Carnelian]

Far too poetic for Sev. 

[DarkChaplain]

Both objections above can be easily brushed aside by the fact that we don't know when or in which context the quotation originated. We've already seen Abaddon's change in attitude and focus from an aggressive frontline commander to somebody brewing his own drinks and experimenting with various things after uncounted years in the Eye.

Titan was removed from realspace for a good amount of time, but subjective time within the bubble exceeded that period greatly. For all we know, it may have been centuries or millennium between Sevatar in The Prince of Crows, wisecracking and what not, and a Khyron saying these things.

Khyron's silence in the book also doesn't say much just yet, seeing how, if he was only relatively recently recruited, he may still be a little distanced from the rest. Heck, his psychic damages, or repairs of it, may have changed his attitude as well. It wouldn't be unexpected.

 

That is not to say that I subscribe to the theory. I remain agnostic on it. I just don't believe that we've had anything in the realms of evidence that actually rules it out so far. There are enough holes remaining and ways to explain perceived inconsistencies that either which way the pendulum swings, it wouldn't be a complete deus ex machina, or asspull. As of right now, with no appearance of Sevatar in published material for the past years, and no direct contradiction (and I'd go so far as to call a lack of identification in The Buried Dagger a deliberate decision on the team's part, to keep the door open) in The Buried Dagger, we simply cannot say one way or the other.

[Kelborn]

Well, what to say?

 

I'm still not sold on the Sev theory and to be honest, I always thought that the GK had more traitor founding members. Yet again, I see the big 4 chapters plus 1 of the other ones. Why?

I mean, why not

A Fist, Hand, Scar or Sallie? Again we got UM, DA, BA and the Vlka.

I know that these characters were introduced long before and I don't blame James for this but a little bit of diversity would have been appreciated, imho.

 

Still think, Khyron should be Zharost but he never betrayed the Imperium. Hopefully, we will see at least a bit of Sev's fate in the future.

[b1soul]

The other "Traitor" founders are really loyalists or at least neutrals belonging to Traitor legions.

 

Sev is the "Death to the False Emperor" guy and I believe he has a reputation as such. I think they'd have to mind-wipe him a la Zael/Hyperion to have him believably join the GK.

[Captain_Krash]

Sev was more of a Renegade than flat out traitor though...he may have said that yes, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't support the Emperor and he damn sure didn't support Horus, only his Legion. And for a Night Lord that's saying a lot. Sev probably would have made a better leader for the legion than  Konrad, even overstepping his bounds and scolding his genefather takes a lot of balls, but he did and Konrad didn't kill him for it which does say something.

 

Sev learned compassion for even mere humans as the heresy went on. Even forming a sort of "Friend ship" with an astropath women that would help him with his severe headaches. Who he avenged when she was killed then went back to jail, there after.

 

Our last known scene with him is in captivity with the Dark Angels...ADB has mentioned this isn't the last we are going to see of him on reddit, along with that he lives on past the Horus Heresy. I know ADB will handle him right regardless.

 

Krash

[Angel_of_Blood]

Sorry but Sev is 100% a traitor. He took part in Istvaan V, massacring Raven Guard and others. Slaughtered who knows how many Dark Angels in the Thramas Crusade. And they’re just the ones we know about. And he thoroughly enjoyed doing it too.

 

Just because he isn’t a fan of Horus and helped a navigator out, doesn’t not make him a traitor.

 

I think a lot of people want him to be Khyron so much that he’s started to get this reputation of an almost reluctant traitor or half-loyalist. When really it was just he still saw himself as on the side of humanity. But that’s true for countless traitors. Perturabo believed that once the Emperor was defeated he might even live and then they would run the Imperium. No ones calling him a loyalist or renegade.

 

I’m just so firmly against Sevatar being Khyron for those reasons. If he hadn’t enjoyed himself so much in killing the loyalist and enthusiasticly taking part in the Heresy than maybe. But just because he doesn’t like deamons and showed some compassion towards an astropath doesn’t make him Grey Knights material.

 

As for ADB saying he lived past the Heresy on Reddit, I’d like to see that post. From everything I’ve read, he never comments on his fate or whether he lives past the Heresy.

[Kelborn]

And don't forget that he did not hesitate to kill the rest of the Kyroptera, enjoyed fighting the Dark Angels and other loyalists and banished Zharost, the loyal chief librarian.

 

Regarding the post of ADB, as far as I remember did he say that he and Alan had some ideas about Sev's fate throughout and after the Heresy.

 

He lately posted that he also had some ideas for a new NL story so let's see.

[Captain_Krash]

He is not 100% traitor (Well maybe at that time yes of course) that was early in the Heresy clearly...a lot happened from then until the end of the Night Lords Legion. It wasn't just one Astropath, there were other humans as well that he didn't just flay for the sake of flaying. Sev went through a massive change period in ideals and what his place is in the Legion and as a space marine he's not a Black and White character and actually has redeemable qualities that could really set him on the path to redemption. He didn't kneel to Chaos or anything crazy so no powers were pushing him. Night Lords especially those from Nostromo are already messed up in the head along with a falied Genefather.

 

ADB talks about Sev. Search "Aaron_Dembski-Bowden - Ask me anything.

 

He talks about how hes seeking righteousness. And that Sev is quoted saying "I'm not on anyone's side"

His real story is after the Horus Heresy according to ADB.

 

I don't rule out Fel Zharost of course Its all rather interesting to speculate on at least.

 

Krash

[Angel_of_Blood]

Sorry but none of that stops him being a traitor. Who are these other humans he’s shown enough compassion to? Just because he wasn’t always flaying doesn’t make him any less of a traitor.And Sev can think he’s righteous all he wants, he may even try to be or find righteousness. He spent years butchering Dark Angels and anyone else he liked, and he had no moral reason to do so. And again. He enjoyed it.Nor has he had a massive change of character. He’s become somewhat apathetic, and again helped an astropath. There is nothing anywhere to show he even wants redemption, never mind deserves it.

Just because he doesn’t follow chaos or like Horus, he’s not suddenly loyal or on the fence or redeemable. Again I think people like Sev so much they want him to be loyal and are seeing things that aren’t there or ignoring the atrocities he committed. Remember he thoroughly enjoyed flaying Alajos face off whilst he was alive. And gloated about it. And massacred his brothers without a thought. Sev is simply his own man at this point. Not exactly bothered about the Heresy. But not even remotely a fan of the Imperium or harbouring any loyal thoughts.


Edit: And don’t get me wrong. I love Sev, and know he’s not one dimensional. But he’s still a traitor.

 

Edit, Edit: So with ADB, this is the same post where he said "he's never going to be a great hero on either side of the Traitor/Loyalist divide, with his name echoing gloriously into eternity." Which others disagree on, but to me, that is not even close to being a Grey Knight, who though yes are clandestine, they are still epic hero's. I will concede on him surviving the Heresy though yes.

[Phoebus]

I think it’s worth remembering that a lot of the concepts being discussed here are not mutually exclusive.

 

Sevatar can be a traitor to the Imperium but nonetheless feel justified about it. More specifically, assuming Sevatar even is one of the eight Grand Masters, he could have felt completely differently about his various betrayals by the time he (hypothetically) joined the Grey Knights. He may very well feel equal parts nihilistically amused and cynically jaded by his legion’s antics circa the Thramas Crusade, but nonetheless consider the Imperium to be a bigger threat to Humanity*. By the time the Siege of Terra starts, however, Sevatar may have come to see Horus’s and his increasingly Chaotic path as an existential threat to the species.

 

And here’s another thing to consider: we assume the stories about the original eight Grand Masters are true. There is every possibility that Sevatar assumed the mantle of Khyron without even being the original article.

 

* In the sense that the Imperium is just as bad as Curze and the Night Lords in its own way, or just more hypocrital about its own atrocities. I don’t think that’s the case, but a psychopathic murderer-cannibal conditioned to be a living weapon may disagree.

[Angel_of_Blood]

I just really do not think it follows his character or makes that much sense. No one would even consider the possibility of it had there not been that little wording about Khyron in the Emperors Gift, which I still believe was meant to be nothing more than a little tease. Without that, there would have been very, very few people if any that would suggest Khyron could be Sevatar. Yet with that quote and stance, it just reads to me like people are trying to fit the mantle and narrative around him, taking quite broad leaps in the process to justify him being a GM. And as of the story now, Khyron is gone with the others to Titan, not to be seen again until much, much longer after the Siege is long distant memory for a few, a generations ago for others. I can't see Sevatar being able to assume the mantle of Khyron after all that time, which is even longer for those on Titan. I can't see the other GM's letting that happen personally.

 

Lastly. It's such a boring way for his character to go. There are so, so many other avenues that his character can be taken post-siege. 

[Phoebus]

Speaking from a position of ignorance, was Khyron even named anywhere before The Emperor’s Gift? Beyond that, let’s be fair — the connection wasn’t made in a vacuum. Gift was released just four months before Prince of Crows, and they had followed in the heels of A D-B subtly building up Sevatar’s legend in 2010’s The First Heretic and 2011’s Blood Reaver. Within that context, it’s not crazy for people to make connections between what a character and what they considered to be clues in visual and prose form.

 

Beyond that, I can’t argue personal taste. I’m not personally invested in Sevatar being Khyron, but the idea doesn’t bother me — nor would it if there was no connection. I do think A D-B knew what he was doing when he described Khyron’s monument, though.

[Angel_of_Blood]

No that is his only mention, other than now Burried Dagger. And I’ve no doubt ADB knew what he was doing and that it was deliberate. But I just feel it was meant to be a fun little tease, not serious.

[Phoebus]

To each their own.