Dealing with enemy characters?

[Wassa]

Hello,

 

The problem I seem to run into the most is dealing with enemy characters. Mainly marine variants with T4/5 and 2+/3++ saves sometimes with a FNP save on top.

 

The issues I find are:

• Can't target them directly with normal weapons.
• Sniper rifles suffer vs T4/5 and 2+/3++ saves, (really sad Ratlings didn't get a stratagem)
• Melee has the same issues as sniper rifles.
• We're not a strong Psyker based army compared to others so dealing mortal wounds this way is hard/likely to get countered.
• Vindicare is good, but will normally take a few turns to kill them. Callidus will deal a few wounds before getting shot/psykered next turn, probably need to take several assassins to kill one character which isn't cost effective.

 

Usually I end up having to destroy the opponents whole army before I can target them, but then even the 3++ is a pain to get past!

 

 

Any solutions I missed?

[Shamansky]

Mordians seem to be an effective answer

[librisrouge]

Mordians seem to be an effective answer

This is probably our best answer, honestly. A veteran squad with plasmaguns will make short work of any front line characters if given a turn of clean shooting.

 

However, most of us don't play the boys in blue, sadly. To that end, can I revisit your stance on ratlings? I, honestly, like them a lot. I've been using them lately and found that a small five man squad can be surprisingly effective. They don't kill a character a turn, or anything like that, but they force the enemy to make some decisions on where those characters are going to hang out. Combined with the occasional Psychic Maelstrom and you've got enemies that will fear to keep anything short of a daemon prince near you.

[SteveAntilles]

Mordians seem to be an effective answer

 

This is true of most things.

 

Other than that though, Ratlings are your best option. Or just kill everything in front, then you can shoot the characters.

[Doof]

Primaris Psyker Psychic maelstrom is pretty effective, select any unit within 18", denies will always be a thing.

Mordian's Form Firing Squad order can target any characters with rapid fire weapons.

[The Black Guard]

I like using Ratlings - they've seen a points decrease in CA so you can take quite a few of them, and eventually over the turns the mortal wounds can really stack up from the 6s. I find that the only limiting factor is their range in larger games, and I like them being able to move back into cover after shooting. That or Mordians.

[HallofStovokor]

I find that guard don't have trouble with marine characters. They often need to get thrown into combat which means they go forward. We have the best tools for killing bubble wrap, so it isn't an issue. Lasguns, mortars, punishers and grenade launchers can destroy this bubble wrap, leaving your better weapons to kill the character.

[Gothical]

I haven't tried Ratlings yet, I have a couple of Sniper Rifles in infantry squads but they are more taken to support a HB/Auto/ML in the squad.

 

My approach to taking out Characters is to eliminate their screen/bubblewrap. This can be easier said than done depending on what they're embedded in (and how quickly they'll be a threat) but often Mortar HWS, Lasgun infantry and tanks can flatten most things through weight of fire, then Plasma/Melta-toting units go in for the kill.

 

I do try to have some sort of counter-charge element in my army lists however, and have found there are some reasonable options that can even take on TEQ characters. A Lord Commissar with The Blade of Conquest is an unexpected threat from opponents too used to thinking Guard models can't do melee, whilst hurling a unit of 2+ Save Bullgryn at them can work too. A cheeky Ogryn Bodyguard can pull off surprising assassinations as well.

 

In a dire pinch you can always throw the remnants of a squad with a Vox-Caster at them and try to tag them with Fire On My Position when they inevitably get wiped out. 

[MARK0SIAN]

It’s quite expensive but grav chute insertion from a Valkyrie can often get a unit close enough to a key character to be able to shoot at it. Pack it with plasma scions or something and they can usually kill a marine captain in one round of shooting. Plus there’s always the chance they’ve left enough space to park the flyer close enough too and then shoot with that.

 

As I said though, expensive and often suicidal for the squad so I’d only really use it if an important character really needed to die like Typhus behind a load of poxwalkers or something.

Edited February 13, 2019 by MARK0SIAN

[MrZakalwe]

I just find you destroy what's in front of them then destroy them.

 

I mean you were going to destroy it anyway, right?

[WarriorFish]

Ratlings are handy, but sadly made of paper and will die to a gnat's fart so once you start pestering your opponent's Deathstar McStabbyface character with them they tend not to last long I have had success sneaking in some Stormies to melta blast character's faces off but that relies on there being an opening along with some luck of course, but as Zak says you often make an opening one way or another

 

Unfortunately your current method is probably the best - units to absorb hits and allow you to manoeuvre will help best until you can get the big guns ready. Ultimately such super characters of doom aren't usually great against Guard if you can ensure that they're getting hassled by Guardsmen all their way

[Wassa]

It's ok.

 

The new assassin rules and strategems have been leaked and they will be insane now :)

[brother_b]

It's ok.

 

The new assassin rules and strategems have been leaked and they will be insane now :)

Links?

[crimsondave]

It's ok.

 

The new assassin rules and strategems have been leaked and they will be insane now

Vindicares are sick.  They are going to be character erasers from across the board.  Eversors are going to be T3 & T4 infantry unit smashers.

 

https://imgur.com/a/kgH6ycq

Edited February 17, 2019 by crimsondave

[MrZakalwe]

Wow those really open up some capabilities for the IG.

[sairence]

Been working on a tournament list since about a month ago for the end of March, which includes all 4. Didn't think it was going to be overly effective and more of a fun choice, but now they might actually have a decrent impact. :D

[Feral_80]

Vindicare sucks :)

Really, he is a bit better than before but still massively random and unreliable. Run the maths.

I remember when people screamed he was imba when the index came out. Then everybody realized he was not at all.

Same now I believe. Apparently his fluff takes precedence over his stats when judging his game performance, for some reason.

 

Just blast the chaff away and you'll he able to 'snipe' those characters :P

[duz_]

Two vindicares might be worth it though with the new rules

 

The double shoot strategem and head shot rule makes them a bit more powerful provided you get the shot off.

[dakkamasta]

Yea I think the Vindicare is actually quite solid with the new rules. Remember he only costs 85 points. Expecting a single >100 pt model to be able to reliably one-shot a decent character across the entire board is quite unreasonable.

 

The Callidus shouldn't be ignored either. 5 attacks at -3 AP D2 with no invulnerable saves is quite dangerous against most infantry characters, especially if she can get close enough to shoot her gun for some mortal wounds. The CP cost shenanigans are just gravy.

[Shamansky]

One idea is amusing my mind: Emperor's Blade, Mordians, Chimera, Commander/Field Commander with Laurels and an infantry unit with 3 or more plasmaguns. Had no chance to test it yet. But looks like a priority target for enemy shooting.  

[duz_]

My Mordians get work done on characters ;)

 

At the very least they scare the crap outta my opponents when the plasmacution squad shows up

[Exilyth]

With pure guard, you have the options of:

- chewing through screens with mass of fire (e.g. basilisks, wyverns, HWTs, leman russ)

- ratlings

- dropping something like plasmavets or bullgryns closeby using a vulture

- outflanking a unit using tallarn stratagem/relic (only really works if the target char is the closest unit after the flanking maneuver)

- throwing your own chaff at them once they're close enough (e.g. conscripts, scout sentinels w/flamers)

- assassins

 

 

Allying in space marines would give access to space marine scouts with sniper rifles, but they cost more while being similar to ratlings.

 

Deathwatch could drop a squad behind the enemy lines, but the success of that depends on the enemies deployment and movement a lot (e.g. they could just screen their char).

 

 

If you do not mind souping up your armies genepool, the filthy xenos known as genestealer cults just got some characters who specialize in taking out characters - but the cult would require that you ally into them and would prevent you from dining with other imperials. And, ofc, you would be commiting heresy.

[Beams]

Vindicare sucks :)

Really, he is a bit better than before but still massively random and unreliable. Run the maths.

I remember when people screamed he was imba when the index came out. Then everybody realized he was not at all.

Same now I believe. Apparently his fluff takes precedence over his stats when judging his game performance, for some reason.

 

Just blast the chaff away and you'll he able to 'snipe' those characters :P

Maths run -- there's about a 30% chance he deals 4 or more damage to a Guardsmen hero, and about a 30% chance that he fails to hurt anyone. The rest is a 1-3 damage.

 

So while not terrible, he's still unreliable.

[HallofStovokor]

 

Vindicare sucks :)

Really, he is a bit better than before but still massively random and unreliable. Run the maths.

I remember when people screamed he was imba when the index came out. Then everybody realized he was not at all.

Same now I believe. Apparently his fluff takes precedence over his stats when judging his game performance, for some reason.

 

Just blast the chaff away and you'll he able to 'snipe' those characters :P

Maths run -- there's about a 30% chance he deals 4 or more damage to a Guardsmen hero, and about a 30% chance that he fails to hurt anyone. The rest is a 1-3 damage.

 

So while not terrible, he's still unreliable.

Where did you get 30% chance? He has an 84.5% that he will hit his target. A 16.5% that the hit will result in D6 damage. Then he's got a 50% that the D6 damage will lead to 4 or more wounds.

 

.845x.165x.5=.0697 or 6.97125% chance to kill a company commander.

 

The vindicare assassin is best for killing elite characters with 3 wounds. In that scenario he will kill a character, with a 4+ save or worse and 3 wounds, 33% of the time. The vindicare is better at killing characters than a guardsman with a sniper rifle, but the guardsman and his rifle only cost 6 points. The vindicare will be 85 points. Those points would be better spent on 2 squads of infantry with grenade launchers or sniper rifles, or 2 mortar squads than on a single model which has no ability to shoot away hordes.

[duz_]

At the very least the vindicare will force your opponent to consider how they position and move characters and possibly be a distraction carnifex

 

Although I believe* they're better used in pairs for maximum effect

 

 

*Pure assumption and theory hammer. This is yet to be tested