Horus Heresy Book 8: Malevolence

[m0nolith]

Funny how custodes hoplites are now a thing sice spears don't have two handed, also whre the :cuss are the sisters?

Daemons seem a bit situational good vs hordes and gunlines, not so much vs mechanised and flyer lists, htey are expensive, sure but they can show up in the enemy's backfield turn one, and with the khorne army you win vp for your units killed in combat, and since you're gonna charge when you show up it's an easy win

Sisters rules aren’t in the book because they weren’t broken.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Also they could always do spear and shield

[Slips]

Yeah, they could always do Spear and Shield in 30k; they just lost the possibility of getting the charge bonus.

[noigrim]

The whole book looks good to me except the signus campaign, as the daemons cant charge when they show up gunlines should blow them away in no time, if you have a melee army however, oh boy

[Marshal Rohr]

How do you make the hoplites, I didn’t see the shield as an option for Custodian Guard Squads

[Charlo]

How do you make the hoplites, I didn’t see the shield as an option for Custodian Guard Squads

Hetaeron guard and the Tribune's.

 

My tribune has a paragon spear and shield.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

How do you make the hoplites, I didn’t see the shield as an option for Custodian Guard Squads

Hetaeron guard and the Tribune's.

 

My tribune has a paragon spear and shield.

Everyone's did charlo lol

[Charlo]

 

 

How do you make the hoplites, I didn’t see the shield as an option for Custodian Guard Squads

Hetaeron guard and the Tribune's.

 

My tribune has a paragon spear and shield.

Everyone's did charlo lol

Saw a lot with a fist!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Fist is for sure a great choice, but paragon spear imo leverages more of the strengths. The haeteron were enough of a deterrent lol

[Marshal Rohr]

Oooh, Might have to revisit my Hetaeron conversion plans then.

[Taliesin]

Excellent background and narrative in this book. Another great addition to the series this, they are so worth having.

[b1soul]

I truly loves the expansion to the Chondax lore. Though I do think the final battle of Phemus doesn't quite fit with what Wright gives us in Scars and PoH

[bluntblade]

Agreed there. I think a focus on the traitors moving against the Scars (and the EC and SoH at that, rather than the AL) would have paid greater dividends.

 

I personally find the Sangi hype a bit OTT. He's gone from potential Warmaster to the guy everyone thought was best for the job, which hitherto we'd only had from Horus in a moment of self-doubt.

 

And Signus got lost in superlatives to quite an extent, which dampened my enjoyment.

[Arkangilos]

Agreed there. I think a focus on the traitors moving against the Scars (and the EC and SoH at that, rather than the AL) would have paid greater dividends.

 

I personally find the Sangi hype a bit OTT. He's gone from potential Warmaster to the guy everyone thought was best for the job, which hitherto we'd only had from Horus in a moment of self-doubt.

 

And Signus got lost in superlatives to quite an extent, which dampened my enjoyment.

To be fair, his hype fit his description from former codices. And I think Horus is the only one that we heard flat out say it, but it’s been alluded to that others believed it as well. Even I think by Horus.

[bluntblade]

But to me it undermines the tragedy of Horus if a better candidate was simply overlooked. To me, Horus should be the best man for the job, right up to the moment he turns, and therein lies the essence of the tragedy.

[Arkangilos]

I remember from the beginning it was never because he was the best, but because he was the first and favored.

[bluntblade]

There are strands of that, but in pretty much everything else I've read, Horus was the best fit for the role of Warmaster. He had the trust and respect of the most of his brothers, and more experience prosecuting the Crusade. To reweight it so heavily in Sanguinius' favour just makes it sound like the Emperor made a really obvious bad call, and talk of the cold, brooding Lupercal jars badly with most of his depictions before Davin.

[Marshal Rohr]

Sanguinius himself said he can’t be warmaster because of his wings and what they symbolized underneath it all. Something was wrong with him and his legion. I don’t buy that, personal, but it’s the angle James Swallow ran with. I think Guilliman and Sanguinius were both hyped to be potential successors to Horus, but because Horus got the job any discussion about Horus’ faults and Sanguinius’ or Guilliman virtues make it look revisionist.

[carlisimo]

Do you really see Mortarion following Sanguinius’s orders? Or Curze?

 

Horus was great at finding what motivated everyone, not just primarchs but planetary governors and Mechanicum archmagi. I think Guilliman would’ve been particularly bad at that, and Sanguinius had the charisma but less ability to motivate people if they weren’t already willing to follow him.

[Ficinus]

The narrative in the black books are meant to be in universe historical documents, right? Why shouldn't they be revisionist? With hindsight, the authors might be able to better see what before seemed to be minor flaws in Horus. They also are likely to just paint Horus as more villainous throughout his life given what they know about him from his actions in the Heresy.

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s the fans that interpret the in universe author’s opinion about Guilliman or Sanguinius being capable warmasters as a confirmation. It’s okay if the author is revisionist, but it’s not okay for fans to be revisionist. Horus was the best of them. Horus was the only one who could do it. It’s revisionism on the fans parts to take in-universe unreliable narrators as proof positive of their own opinion.

[Nova_Dew]

It’s the fans that interpret the in universe author’s opinion about Guilliman or Sanguinius being capable warmasters as a confirmation. It’s okay if the author is revisionist, but it’s not okay for fans to be revisionist. Horus was the best of them. Horus was the only one who could do it. It’s revisionism on the fans parts to take in-universe unreliable narrators as proof positive of their own opinion.

 

The only thing they can take is the proof that someone in-universe shares their opinion and that their opinion is a canon opinion (that may later become seen as the truth), after all everything (until changed) in the black books is canon, just not everything is the truth.

[Arkangilos]

It’s the fans that interpret the in universe author’s opinion about Guilliman or Sanguinius being capable warmasters as a confirmation. It’s okay if the author is revisionist, but it’s not okay for fans to be revisionist. Horus was the best of them. Horus was the only one who could do it. It’s revisionism on the fans parts to take in-universe unreliable narrators as proof positive of their own opinion.

To be fair, it’s also in the books. I mean Horus thought Sanguinius was better. I’m not saying he *was* better, but I am saying from the beginning, in Universe, almost everyone was taken aback by it being Horus. Even before the series started I remembered it being more because he was the Emperor’s favored son.

 

I also don’t think it’s correct to say Horus was the only one who could do it. He’s the one that was chosen, and he failed. We don’t know who else could have done it because they weren’t chosen. We do know Sanguinius was loved by almost every primarch (that’s been long established), and that he was made Warmaster of Terran defences during the siege (per 7th edition codex at least).

 

We also know Horus being selected made people upset (Horus Rising/ False Gods).

 

I’m not saying Horus wasn’t the best choice, by the way (though we hindsight we know he wasnt, lol). I’m just saying it’s not revisionist to think Sanguinius wouldn’t have been better.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Arkangilos

[Marshal Rohr]

When you go allll the way back to the AT, Codex Imperialis, and Epic Space Marine stuff it’s explicit about Horus being Primus inter pares. The modern take adds drama and depth, sure. The nagging sense of doubt, the insecurity. All of that is 100% awesome and adds layers. It’s the idea that there is some kind of hidden metaplot running through the series I don’t agree with.

[Ficinus]

I don't think almost every other primarch was taken aback by Horus being named Warmaster. What sources are there for that? Who were the thirteen or fourteen who were surprised that Horus was given the honor? My impression has always been that Horus was the obvious choice, due to his diplomatic skill, military skill, and relationship with the Emperor. That isn't to say some weren't upset or that no one else thought they should have received the honor. It also doesn't mean Horus couldn't doubt himself.

 

Sanguinius was probably the second choice, but it isn't as though other primarchs wouldn't have been mad at that too. The same folks upset about Horus being made their leader would have been upset if anyone (but themselves) had been made warmaster.

 

I think the primarchs might have been taken aback by the idea that any of them might be named as something like warmaster and that the Emperor would leave them.