Standard of Sacrifice with FnP and Company Veterans

[ambit]

What happens when you have both a character and company veterans with FnP?

 

From my understanding the character needs to be hit, wounded, they get their save, then a FnP for each wound. For each wound that goes through (after FnP) the Company Veterans can take the wound instead, on a 2+. As it's a mortal wound, they don't get a save, but they do get a 5+ FnP from Standard of Sacrifice?

 

So that is 2 chances at FnP, using different models.

 

 

Command Squad Bodyguard: Roll a D6 each time a friendly BLOOD ANGELS CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit; on a 2+ a model from this squad can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound.

 

 

Standard of Sacrifice: Roll a D6 each time a friendly BLOOD ANGELS INFANTRY or BLOOD ANGELS BIKER model within 6" of the bearer loses a wound; on a 5+, the wound is ignored and has no affect.

 

 

With the below setup you would then be able to run the Veterans and Ancient hiding behind the Dreadnought with Gift of Foresight (one of the Vets needs to be within 3"). Libby casts Shield of Sanguinius on the Dread. Sure, you can shoot at my T7, 8W character. But he has a 3+, 5++, 6+++(re-roll 1s), 5+++. Then keep topping up the Veterans with Sanguinary Priest and Novitiate.

 

Or I could make the Smash Captain my warlord, give him the Death Visions of Sanguinius and he will have a 3++, 5+++(re-roll 1s), 5+++. Wonder which one is the optimal warlord then?

 

Also, its not just for shooting, so if the Captain/Librarian and Veterans charge an enemy character and squad, have the Veterans attack the squad first to cut down numbers. If they interrupt to try and bring down the Captain, take off a wound or two to keep him up (assuming that he'd die otherwise), and since your Veterans have already attacked it's not too bad. Then the Captain gets to happily go to town on the enemy character. 2 chances to bring them back to life next turn with the Priest and Novitiate.

 

 

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [22 PL, 400pts, 1CP] ++

 

+ HQ +

Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer

Librarian [7 PL, 122pts]: 2. Unleash Rage, 3. Shield of Sanguinius, Force sword, Jump Pack, Storm bolter

Librarian Dreadnought [9 PL, 154pts]: 1. Quickening, 6. Wings of Sanguinus, Furioso fist, Heavy flamer, Warlord, 5. Gift of Foresight

 

 

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [24 PL, 354pts, 0CP] ++

Armoury of Baal [-1CP]: 1 additional Relic of Baal

 

+ HQ +

Sanguinary Priest [5 PL, 98pts]: Jump Pack, Lightning Claw, Lightning Claw

 

+ Elites +

Company Veterans [9 PL, 117pts]: Jump Pack
. 4 x Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: Inferno pistol, Inferno pistol

Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 79pts]: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword, Standard of Sacrifice

Sanguinary Novitiate [4 PL, 60pts]: Jump Pack

[Majkhel]

Sneaky. Looks valid though.

If you are using Index entries (and you are in case of the JP Priest) then it would arguably be better to use Company Ancient (with Index JP) then the Sanguinary Ancient - cheaper and Company Banner gives better bonus IMO as it allows a shooty model to shoot again on +4 when dying.

[Charlo]

I think it was discussed before and it's fully legal! Cheesy? Maybe, but BA are such a lower tier codex anyway it shouldn't matter too much.

[Kallas]

Only part that doesn't work is multiple FnP on one model.

 

Gift of Foresight and Standard of Sacrifice gives you no bonus rolls, so it'd just be the 5+++ (or 6+++/rr1s).

[Panzer]

Might come in handy against the new raise of actual threatening sniper units but other than that bodyguard units are mostly for melee as the opponent can't shoot the character anyways.

[ambit]

Only part that doesn't work is multiple FnP on one model.

 

Gift of Foresight and Standard of Sacrifice gives you no bonus rolls, so it'd just be the 5+++ (or 6+++/rr1s).

 

Yeah the second 5+++ I was referring to is for the bodyguards taking the mortal wound.

 

First one is Gift of Foresight (5+++/rrls) on the captain with Death Visions, or 6+++/rr1s on the dreadnought.

[Indefragable]

Yes it works. I’ve done it.

 

I’ve done Cataphractii Capt and vets for 2+/3++/5+++ re-rolling 1’s followed by the Vets w/ 5+++.

 

A couple things to note:

 

-it works for a game, maybe two, then opponents get wise and focus down the Vets first. Usually with weapons they would have used on Scouts/Tacs etc... so they aren’t necessarily drawing fire from your HQ

 

-unless you can find a way to reliably build the setup into your TAC list, it draws away from the typical fast n’ hard lists that traditionally serve BA best. For example, if you’d normally throw a solo Smash out at a Knight and put the SoS w/ some Sang Guard or such, you are now making the SG less effective by committing the SoS to the Smash/Vets. Make sense? So yea, it CAN work but it may not be as efficient in the big picture as it seems.

 

Definitely potential.

[ambit]

-unless you can find a way to reliably build the setup into your TAC list, it draws away from the typical fast n’ hard lists that traditionally serve BA best. For example, if you’d normally throw a solo Smash out at a Knight and put the SoS w/ some Sang Guard or such, you are now making the SG less effective by committing the SoS to the Smash/Vets. Make sense? So yea, it CAN work but it may not be as efficient in the big picture as it seems.

 

 

Yeah I've put a 1750 TAC list together with Deathwatch and Vostroyan Battalions.

 

The purpose of the BA detachment is to reliably get the Smash into combat with the biggest threat. The Ancient and Veterans can take on screens, but they are primarily there to keep him alive. Only 6 models, so trying to hide from LoS on their way in is possible.

 

DW Librarian is there to buff them and provide a screen (after they advance on the first turn) by using the Beacon Angelis on the first Intercessor unit (likely putting them in rapid fire range for the hellblasters, but if not, they haven't moved, so the intercessors can rapid fire at 30").

 

The 2nd Intercessor unit arrives from the Teleportarium in turn 2 (toughness 5), in time to hit them with the BA detachment. Option with the Watch Master to leave him in Deployment or Teleport in turn 2.

 

Deployment zone, area denial and nearby objectives are handled by the Heavy Intercessor Squad and long range Vostroyans.

 

Have played with larger BA detachments in a 1k (exluding DW) and 2k list, but had to keep it lean to squeeze everything into a 1750 list.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Deathwatch) [61 PL, 1107pts, 5CP] ++

 

Armory of the Watch Fortress (2 Relics) [-3CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Librarian with Jump Pack [7 PL, 124pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 2) Might of Heroes, Force sword, Jump Pack, Storm Bolter, The Beacon Angelis

Watch Master [7 PL, 130pts]: Tome of the Ectoclades

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessors [14 PL, 240pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

. 4 x Hellblaster: Plasma incinerator

. 5 x Intercessor: Bolt rifle

. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle, Chainsword

 

Intercessors [18 PL, 346pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

. 2 x Aggressor

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

. 3 x Inceptor

. . Two Plasma Exterminators: 2x Plasma Exterminator

. 4 x Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor Sergeant: Auto Bolt Rifle, Chainsword

 

Intercessors [15 PL, 267pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

. Aggressor

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

. 4 x Hellblaster: Heavy Plasma Incinerator

. 4 x Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword, Stalker Bolt Rifle

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [21 PL, 357pts, 4CP] ++

 

Imperial Commander's Armoury [-1CP]: 1 additional Heirloom of Conquest

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Vostroyan

 

+ HQ +

 

Company Commander [2 PL, 31pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Relic: Kurov's Aquila

2 x Company Commander [2 PL, 31pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword

 

 

+ Troops +

 

3 x Infantry Squad [3 PL, 56pts]

. 7x Guardsman

. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher

. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

 

+ Elites +

 

3 x Command Squad [2 PL, 32pts]

. 4 x Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle

 

 

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [20 PL, 286pts, 0CP] ++

 

Armoury of Baal [-1CP]: 1 additional Relic of Baal

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: 5. Gift of Foresight, Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord

 

+ Elites +

 

Company Veterans [4 PL, 42pts]: Jump Pack

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield

. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm shield

 

Company Veterans [4 PL, 42pts]: Jump Pack

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield

. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm shield

 

Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 78pts]: Angelus boltgun, Death mask, Power fist, Standard of Sacrifice

 

++ Total: [102 PL, 1750pts, 9CP] ++

[Delta.Skies]

Had a discussion about this before. Guy responded, feel no pain is you ignoring the wound so you would not be able to fail a fnp and then pass it on, because you were already wounded you either fought through it or fell to it. Thus creating you either do the lookout sir or the feel no pain. But you could pass the lookout sir and then do the feel no pain for him. Which made sense cause i thought of the possibility of two fnp, but im still questioning it because i would like for it to be the first option as well.

[Kallas]

Had a discussion about this before. Guy responded, feel no pain is you ignoring the wound so you would not be able to fail a fnp and then pass it on, because you were already wounded you either fought through it or fell to it. Thus creating you either do the lookout sir or the feel no pain. But you could pass the lookout sir and then do the feel no pain for him. Which made sense cause i thought of the possibility of two fnp, but im still questioning it because i would like for it to be the first option as well.

Actually, this does seem to be the case, after going through the rules again, but for a different reason as your guy's logic doesn't hold up on its own.

 

Company Veterans: "Roll a dice each time a friendly <CHAPTER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit, on a 2+ a model from this squad can intercept that hit - the character does not lose a wound, but this unit suffers a mortal wound."

 

Standard of Sacrifice: "ANCIENT model only. [...] Roll a d6 each time a friendly BLOOD ANGELS INFANTRY or BLOOD ANGELS BIKER model within 6" loses a wound; on a 5+ the wound is ignored and has no effect. Models with the Black Rage are not affected."

 

So that definitely happens after the save roll ('loses a wound', which is during the damage step of resolving an attack) which means that the player can:

* Roll a FNP

* Roll to pass it to the Company Veterans

 

Since both of those options are the player's to make, they get to choose the order, as per pg178 of the Core Rulebook/#2 'Psychic Phase' in the sidebar under 'Sequencing' ("While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally 'at the start of the Movement phase' or 'before the battle begins.' When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

 

Because both of these happen at the same time, the Sequencing rule would kick in, making it the player whose turn it is' decision. They could choose for you to apply the Company Veterans first.

 

Honestly, that seems very counter intuitive to me, as the opponent gets to dictate another player's abilities, but that does appear to be the case... Anyone able to prove me wrong? (Please?)

[ambit]

I look at it this way - the character only gets wounded after failing a FnP, the company veteran ability only kicks in once they are wounded. It transfers the wound to them as a mortal wound, and in turn, they get a FnP against the mortal wound.

[Damon Nightman]

So if your HQ gets shot with a multi damage weapon and you have to make a FNP roll for each point of damage, according to this thread, the company vets could intercept each point of damage allowing a multi damage, single shot weapon to kill multiple people?

 

So your HQ takes a melta to the face, fails armor save, opponent rolls a 6 for damage, and you fail 4 FNPs. You can have 4 Company Vets intervene and die, saving the HQ. Is this how that would work?

[Panzer]

So if your HQ gets shot with a multi damage weapon and you have to make a FNP roll for each point of damage, according to this thread, the company vets could intercept each point of damage allowing a multi damage, single shot weapon to kill multiple people?

 

So your HQ takes a melta to the face, fails armor save, opponent rolls a 6 for damage, and you fail 4 FNPs. You can have 4 Company Vets intervene and die, saving the HQ. Is this how that would work?

 

That's right. Hence why most of the bodyguard rules are pretty crap and the T'au Drone bodyguard rule is so good (also because they only cost 10ppm). Funnily enough the T'au Crisis Bodyguards (yes such a unit exists as well) has the same crap bodyguard rule as others. ^^

That being said, your character shouldn't be in a position where your opponent can shoot at him with such a weapon. The character rule is still the best kind of protection for him. Bodyguards are most useful against sniper units and melee damage.

[Indefragable]

It SHOULD work that a Company Vet takes the full Wound, regardless of damage or any other factor. Aka Secret Service agent diving in front of the bullet takes the full damage regardless of “bullet” being a pea shooter or lascannon.

 

...but GW wording is weird and I’ve seen people argue that if your character is hit w a lascannon that does 6 Damage, you would need 6x vets to absorb it.

[Kallas]

...but GW wording is weird and I’ve seen people argue that if your character is hit w a lascannon that does 6 Damage, you would need 6x vets to absorb it.

 

In this situation, the wording is plenty clear. One would require six Veterans to absorb a single source of six damage - yes, it's dumb...