New Centurions info? (Weekender)

[Brofist]

Side note: they fixed this interaction for AdMech by allowing an opponent to ignore the IC when they reworded the patris cybernetica rule. I think their intent was to avoid beefcake HQs tanking AP3 fire directed at robots, but the net effect is the same iirc

[Gorgoff]

I thought about it.

You don't allocate attacks, you allocate wounds.

And they have not the property "grenade" but S, AP and certain special rules like haywire or ID.

So yeah, you could allocate those wounds to your Praevian, but they don't vanish.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Side note: they fixed this interaction for AdMech by allowing an opponent to ignore the IC when they reworded the patris cybernetica rule. I think their intent was to avoid beefcake HQs tanking AP3 fire directed at robots, but the net effect is the same iirc

 

Yea, they definitely thought about characters tanking hits for the unit when making the book. The praevian originally a surprise reveal with narik dreygur so the rules were a bit less thought about.  

 

I thought about it.

You don't allocate attacks, you allocate wounds.

And they have not the property "grenade" but S, AP and certain special rules like haywire or ID.

So yeah, you could allocate those wounds to your Praevian, but they don't vanish.

 

What you said literally has nothing to do with the the mechanic. They have to be "used" against an MC, Vehicle or building to gain their damage profile. You only know what unit type the grenades are being used against until during the (aforementionedly backwards) wound allocation step. If they're not allocated against an MC, they're not being used against an MC and lose their profile and have no effect.

[Dhar'Neth]

After re-reading the rules for grenades in close combat I came to the conclusion that it doesn’t work as presented. The provision reads to me „You can use grenades against unit type X, Y, Z” meaning you can choose that weapon profile only if a model is in contact with the model with specific Unit type (MC, Vehicle, Building) - and that’s the only restriction given. Not that wounds made by those weapons are discarded when allocated to models with different unit type. (It can be imagined as Praevian catching the grenade before it hit the automata). Just my 2 cents

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well that's making a lot of assumptions right there.

 

 

 

The provision reads to me „You can use grenades against unit type X, Y, Z” meaning you can choose that weapon profile only if a model is in contact with the model with specific Unit type (MC, Vehicle, Building) - and that’s the only restriction given

It  doesn't say that anywhere. There is in fact no restriction on choosing to use a grenade in the melee phase if it has an assault phase option; you could choose to use krak grenades every turn with tac marines vs infantry if you wanted.  The only restriction is on the effect, not on the choice. 

 

 

 

 

 Not that wounds made by those weapons are discarded when allocated to models with different unit type.

 

It actually says exactly that;

 

"Unless used in assaults against vehicles, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures, [grenades] have no effect."

 

Again, the restriction is on the effect. In a mixed unit where are in base to base with multiple models, you can only know what the grenade is being used against during the wound allocation step (unless someone is using Precision Strike). And then, once you know what its being used against, you determine the effect; either none (as explicitly stated) or with whichever given profile.  

[Brother Pheidias]

This discussion makes me depressed for the state of the game if this is something you're actually having to deal with in an opponent.

[Slips]

This discussion makes me depressed for the state of the game if this is something you're actually having to deal with in an opponent.

Its only a problem if Praevians were commonplace; they aren't and this is a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery rare thing to even happen to begin with.

 

But, its still something to keep in mind because the rules, in general, are more or less filled with strange little interactions like this.

[Gorgoff]

"It doesn't say that anywhere. There is in fact no restriction on choosing to use a grenade in the melee phase if it has an assault phase option"

 

Page 182 is the list against which opponents you can use grenades. Guns, vehicles, MC. Only if you are in contact with these you can use them. Not against infantry.

 

"What you said literally has nothing to do with the the mechanic. They have to be "used" against an MC, Vehicle or building to gain their damage profile. You only know what unit type the grenades are being used against until during the (aforementionedly backwards) wound allocation step. If they're not allocated against an MC, they're not being used against an MC and lose their profile and have no effect."

 

That is not how cc works.

You roll to hit against the majority of enemy WS and than to wound against toughness of the majority.

You don't allocate attacks against certain models. That is only allowed in challenges, which by the way is how you prevent that your enemy pulls off this stunt ;)

 

After the enemy produced wounds you decide which wound pool will be handled first (if there is more then one wound pool)

and than you decide which model get these wounds first if there are more than on model in cc with the enemy.

The propertys of wound pools are Strength, Armour Penetration and certain special rules. At this point there are no distinction from where those wound came.

 

"Unless used in assaults against vehicles, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures, [grenades] have no effect."

I haven't found that passage.

Could you kindly show me where that is, please? :)

Besides that doesn't mean that wounds coming from grenades have no effect, because if you fight in cc against a unit of MC + Praevian you ARE in an assault against MC as long those are in base contact with your models.

Therefore you can use them and produce a wound pool with them.

 

In my humble experience with the internet those kind of discussions may become heated very quickly and I want to make clear that I don't disrespect any of your posts, guys.

 

Stay calm stay cool.

We'll figure that out.

 

"This discussion makes me depressed for the state of the game if this is something you're actually having to deal with in an opponent."

I never saw someone who made this and as a regular player of a Praevian I can tell you like Slips just did that those kind of situations are very rare. Most of the time they shoot the whole game enemy vehicles to pieces and IF they get in cc the opponent tries to lure the Praevian into a challenge.

Although I always give mine the ALLMIGHTY Chainsword I usually avoid this no matter what. ;)

[Rabidbunneh]

Side note: they fixed this interaction for AdMech by allowing an opponent to ignore the IC when they reworded the patris cybernetica rule. I think their intent was to avoid beefcake HQs tanking AP3 fire directed at robots, but the net effect is the same iirc

I think that's only for shooting attacks.

[SkimaskMohawk]

"It doesn't say that anywhere. There is in fact no restriction on choosing to use a grenade in the melee phase if it has an assault phase option"

 

Page 182 is the list against which opponents you can use grenades. Guns, vehicles, MC. Only if you are in contact with these you can use them. Not against infantry.

 

"What you said literally has nothing to do with the the mechanic. They have to be "used" against an MC, Vehicle or building to gain their damage profile. You only know what unit type the grenades are being used against until during the (aforementionedly backwards) wound allocation step. If they're not allocated against an MC, they're not being used against an MC and lose their profile and have no effect."

 

That is not how cc works.

You roll to hit against the majority of enemy WS and than to wound against toughness of the majority.

You don't allocate attacks against certain models. That is only allowed in challenges, which by the way is how you prevent that your enemy pulls off this stunt ;)

 

After the enemy produced wounds you decide which wound pool will be handled first (if there is more then one wound pool)

and than you decide which model get these wounds first if there are more than on model in cc with the enemy.

The propertys of wound pools are Strength, Armour Penetration and certain special rules. At this point there are no distinction from where those wound came.

 

"Unless used in assaults against vehicles, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures, [grenades] have no effect."

I haven't found that passage.

Could you kindly show me where that is, please? :)

Besides that doesn't mean that wounds coming from grenades have no effect, because if you fight in cc against a unit of MC + Praevian you ARE in an assault against MC as long those are in base contact with your models.

Therefore you can use them and produce a wound pool with them.

 

In my humble experience with the internet those kind of discussions may become heated very quickly and I want to make clear that I don't disrespect any of your posts, guys.

 

Stay calm stay cool.

We'll figure that out.

 

"This discussion makes me depressed for the state of the game if this is something you're actually having to deal with in an opponent."

I never saw someone who made this and as a regular player of a Praevian I can tell you like Slips just did that those kind of situations are very rare. Most of the time they shoot the whole game enemy vehicles to pieces and IF they get in cc the opponent tries to lure the Praevian into a challenge.

Although I always give mine the ALLMIGHTY Chainsword I usually avoid this no matter what. ;)

Gorgoff. Page 182 does not have any restriction on choice. It literally has the exact same wording as the pages with the grenade effect in that they can only be "used" against certain targets, but you're fallaciously equating "used" with rolling to hit. There is absolutely nothing describing being in base to base contact, that is purely made up.

 

The qualifier is on the bombs and Grenades being used against a certain target; if they're not they have no effect as described on page 183 under any of the specific Grenades themselves. I understand how the melee phase works, but I'm not the one making up imaginary clauses for use of Grenades.

 

There's only two times you know when you are "using" a grenade against a certain target. The first is when you score a precision hit and allocate a head of phase, the second is during the wound allocation step.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Can we get back on topic?

[rendingon1+]

I'm really interested in this armourer dude. If giving MC to a heavy weapon is all he brings (and there's no limitations to speak of), than I have some mixed feelings about this dude. MC Lascannons/ missle launchers? yes please. MC heavy bolter/volkite culverin? meh. I wonder how much usefull will he be when you can take master of signals for +1BS anyway. Actually I can't think of any man portable weapon that would benefit from reroll more than +1BS. Assuming we're talking about BS4 unit and Artificer(armourer?) is cheaper than a MoS  who has also bombardment/his tool pack.

I hope instead he gives buffs a'la 40k Jokaero of old.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

 

I hope instead he gives buffs a'la 40k Jokaero of old.

 

What did these do ?

[rendingon1+]

Roll a dice:

1. nothing

2. +12" to max weapons range

3. +1 sv for the unit

4. Rending for ranged weapons

5. 5+ inv for the unit

6. roll twice

 

Something like that (not exactly the same of course) would be quite interesting.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Pretty random ... but potentially extremely powerful. Just imagine rolling that sweet 6 followed by a 4 and a 5 ... 

[rendingon1+]

Yes, but I didn't mean copy paste from Jokaero entry ;) Something like rolling on the chart where ALL rules have practical utility (definitely not night fighting or soulblaze lol), or choosing one of the rules that suits you best. Just MC for heavy weapons is not very interesting as an idea imho.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

True, but if we dip into the realm of Tank Hunter for an example, we're moving into Siege Breaker or Imperial Fists LA rules, which wouldn't be thoughtful either.

 

Maybe something that improves Deflagrate (boosting Volkites) or a rule that lowers AP by one (like the one Warlord Trait Cult & Militia get).

 

But well, only speculation at this point.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Armourer would shine on iron havocs, who get no benefit from master of signal

[Harrowmaster]

Armourer would shine on iron havocs, who get no benefit from master of signal

True but only 2 legions can take them (AL with coils). This guy needs to be useful for all the legions though.

[Ficinus]

I wonder how much usefull will he be when you can take master of signals for +1BS anyway. Actually I can't think of any man portable weapon that would benefit from reroll more than +1BS.

Plasma cannons!

[rendingon1+]

 

I wonder how much usefull will he be when you can take master of signals for +1BS anyway. Actually I can't think of any man portable weapon that would benefit from reroll more than +1BS.

Plasma cannons!

 

How?

 

Unless you mean rerolling scatter (Iwas thinking mainly about get's hot,silly me) than yes.

[Ficinus]

I was thinking "gets hot." Doesn't any reroll to hit ability translate to rerolling gets hot for blast weapons? Am I mistaken?

 

But rerolling a scatter is also often better than reducing the scatter by one inch.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It does translate to rerolling the gets hot as well as the scatter

[rendingon1+]

Sorry, you're right, you can also reroll 1

[Gorgoff]

"Gorgoff. Page 182 does not have any restriction on choice. It literally has the exact same wording as the pages with the grenade effect in that they can only be "used" against certain targets"

And that is a restriction. You cannot use them in cc if none of the meantioned units is part of the cc.

That is what I said and that is what you repeated. So we are on the same page here. Great. :)

"There is absolutely nothing describing being in base to base contact, that is purely made up."

 

Nope, that's just how wound allocation works.

You have to be the closest model to be on the receiving end of wound pools.

In an assault you have to be in base contact to have wound allocated to you because those are the closest models.

Exception are Precice Strikes and wounds who got passed over because a character succeded in a look out role.

 

"The qualifier is on the bombs and Grenades being used against a certain target; if they're not they have no effect as described on page 183 under any of the specific Grenades themselves."

 

D'accord. :)

Being in an assault with a Praevian with accompanied MC qualifies as being in an assault with MC. Therefore you can produce wounds with grenades.

We don't allocate attacks (exception: precision strikes as meantioned before), we allocate wounds. And for wound allocation it doesn't matter who produced them.

 

"Can we get back on topic?"

We are.

It seems that some sort of Dreadnought Praevian is coming and that's why we think about how that works.

Maybe he can't join them though.

 

"If giving MC to a heavy weapon is all he brings (and there's no limitations to speak of), than I have some mixed feelings about this dude. MC Lascannons/ missle launchers? yes please. MC heavy bolter/volkite culverin? meh. "

 

Sad, but true.

 

"Armourer would shine on iron havocs, who get no benefit from master of signal"

Yeah baby. My IW will love him. :)

 

"Plasma cannons!"

Yeah baby. My DG HSS with Plasma Guns will love him. ;)

 

 

"True but only 2 legions can take them (AL with coils). This guy needs to be useful for all the legions though."

 

Any Legion HSS can have Plasma Cannons, Lascannons, Multimeltas, Missle Launchers and heavy flamers.