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Felling giants: a discussion about Mental Onslaught


Kallas

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It's by far the most potent single power in the game considering it can, potentially, automatically kill any given model with one Psychic Test.

 

Also, there are several buffs to it to make it automatically kill things that involve no chance (eg, the Clamavus), which is why it's talked about quite a bit.

 

Further, I think some people overestimate how hard it is to get to an effective Ld14:

* Clamavus (+1 Ld)

* Magus or Primus (+1 Ld through Inspiring Leader from the use of Broodcoven)

* Locus (-1 Ld to enemies within 6"; easy to get with Lying In Wait)

* Acolyte Iconward (+1 Ld from Vigilus Deliverance Broodsurge Relic - Vial of the Grandsire's Blood)

 

That's, admittedly, 5 CP and one relies on getting a single model within 6" (but that's relatively easy to do for GSC!). But considering that GSC are more than likely running three Battalions or one plus a Brigade that's not really that much considering it's automatic death to anything Ld 8 or less.

 

And to preempt some of the counterpoints: pretty much all of those buff characters are useful in other ways:

* Clamavus gives a charge buff

* Magus gives an additional Psyker for different powers and an extra Deny; or the Primus which buffs melee threat

* Iconward gives a FNP bubble, and the Relic lets you buff up even the most basic Patriarch to S7 8A once per game

* Locus is probably the least useful alone, but is still a decent little character hunter

 

All told, including in-game Stratagems, that bundle costs about 400pts (of which about 250 is going towards usually taken HQ 'taxes' anyway) and 5CP (2 for the Vigilus Detachment/presumably second Relic, which also has one ok other Stratagem too; 2 for a Lying In Wait; and 1 of which is Broodcoven which is pretty much an auto-use when taking a Patriarch). Not exactly super expensive considering it can all be put to various other uses, or it can enable a high chance to auto-kill Ld 8 or less models.

 

For only ~100pts more, you can bring a Brood Brothers Vanguard detachment of three Astropaths to give you an additional roll to give you the opportunity to auto-kill Ld 10 or less. And still have some extra utility (one Astropath takes Terrifying Visions: the other two can pack the two Guard damaging powers for additional Mortal Wound output).

 

Honestly, one doesn't need to put that much into it to make it a terrifying power. Drop the Locus or Iconward investment and it's still doing an average of about 10MWs to Ld8 (I think that's how the math worked out, I forget). That's not exactly bad for a WC6 power...

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It's by far the most potent single power in the game considering it can, potentially, automatically kill any given model with one Psychic Test.

You set all this up, and then he gets off a deny the witch and shuts it all down anyway...

 

I am not a fan of going this hard on setting up something that ultimately relies on one roll.

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Aye, agreed.

 

At the end of the day, it's another option in the GSC arsenal to take down Knights and the like without relying on allies. It's not easy-peasy to pull off, requires at least a little skill and/or luck, and can be countered. It may also force the usual Loyal 32 to include a psyker of some sort to counter this kind of threat (perhaps changing it to Loyal 33? :ohmy.:). I like it and I'm glad that it's (seemingly) here to stay.

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I am not a fan of going this hard on setting up something that ultimately relies on one roll.

 

Maybe you missed the part where it's mostly all things you're taking anyway? Patriarch, Magus, Primus, Iconward, Clamavus - they're all things that are pretty damn common in GSC armies because of their general (or in some cases, specific) utility.

 

What I was saying above is that one can invest about 200/250pts into making Mental Onslaught insanely dangerous, while adding other utility at the same time (Locus is still good at bodyguarding something important, like a Patriarch, against dangerous melee enemies like Knights/Smash Captains; Astropaths can pump out more Mortal Wounds alongside the other GSC powers for a minimal cost)

 

Sure, MO isn't a certainty because it can get Denied. There are at least three armies in the game that cannot Deny (AdMech [although they are Imperial for Soup Denial], Tau, and Necrons [with the exception on a specific Warlord Trait and Gloom Prisms if they're taking Canoptek Spyders...]), with Custodes having limited access (one Warlord Trait and a short range Stratagem). There are some armies that it won't be especially effective against: Grey Knights because of Brotherhood of Psykers giving them +1 to Denies, but if it does go through on say a GMNDK then it's going to hurt; Thousand Sons will almost always get the opportunity to Deny but they're not necessarily good at Denying any given power; Black Templars/World Eaters/others with a 4+ Deny Stratagem are obviously quite good, but they're generally pretty weak in several other areas.

 

It's definitely not a guarantee, but it is terrifying that it can just straight up remove a powerful model on a single, simple roll. That's potency that is extremely uncommon - even Castellans (which I think, in their current state, are bad for the game, or at least the competitive scene) can :cuss up given that they have numerous points of failure (ie, they're rolling for every step, not just one Psychic Test; plus they're also requiring multiple buffs to stack to get to their full potency, albeit none of which require a specific dice roll like Terrifying Visions would).

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I am not a fan of going this hard on setting up something that ultimately relies on one roll.

 

Maybe you missed the part where it's mostly all things you're taking anyway?

I am taking most of those, but I am not taking them in a clump for the sake of getting one power off. I have buffs that need handing out!

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I am taking most of those, but I am not taking them in a clump for the sake of getting one power off. I have buffs that need handing out!

 

Sure, but that means you have the option to do it, if you want to! That's kind of my point - you've got the tools for a significant threat, if you feel the need to increase its potency.

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It clearly is very potent. It's easy to set up the opportunity without much cost, so even if unreliable, you may as well try.

 

I'm taking a clamavus anyway. I'm taking broodsurge anyway. May as well pay 1 cp for the extra relic. I'm taking AM, may as well take a 26 pts psyker.

 

In terms of the armies overall balance I think it's actually the WEAKEST thing in the book. We would struggle without it when we are in the scenario where we can't get though chaff walls to hit the target for melee, and it's unreliability will lose us games.

 

Its actually a really bad risk to not know prior to a dice roll whether that castallan is going to have 28 wounds or 0 wounds after you roll those two dice. I can't think of anything else with so much distribution in possible outcomes! Literally with LD buffs/rebuffs it's an either or scenario whether the castallan takes 28 wounds or is unhurt...

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That might be what stayed GW's hand when they were working on the FAQ/Errata. Since it could (almost) just as equally devastate an enemy Knight or not manifest, and then if manifested could be denied, perhaps that was reason enough to leave it as is and see how it goes? I certainly think it is and look forward to hearing how things go for people using it.

 

On another note, this could be a neat way to get rid of those pesky Tank Commanders that come up in certain competitive Guard lists and are a pain to deal with from what I've heard.

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All those characters are ones you are most likely using that is true. I doubt your always going to take all those characters nd always run them straight for a knight.

 

True when the stars align you can one hit k.o. A model, but I just see to many points and people theory crafting in a bubble. The cult has other ways of dealing with a knight that don’t involve so many moving parts to work.

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True when the stars align you can one hit k.o. A model, but I just see to many points and people theory crafting in a bubble.

 

When the stars align? You need three characters within 6" of one other character (who has a pretty large base) to  basically kill anything Ld8; throw in the Locus (by far the least ubiquitous character) and that's auto-killing anything Ld8 and brutalising anything Ld9. That's not "the stars aligning", that's readily engineerable by the player!

 

Further, as I've already said, these characters really don't need to be all bunched up. For starters, a 6" range from each of them gives their buffs out to things 12" away from the Patriarch. Further, they only need to be within 6" of the Patriarch on Turn 2, or 3, depending on when you want to just remove something with high Ld. Given that these characters don't really give a damn about shooting or fighting (other than the Patriarch), they can happily advance to get across the board and reach the Patriarch. Finally, with 18" range on MO, the Patriarch isn't needing to be super close, which helps get the other buffs in range when he powers up the Death Star reactors.

 

Seriously, I don't see how anyone can downplay this ability. Again, the majority of these characters are generally taken and often useful outside of MO shenanigans. The ones that are least common (Locus and Astropaths) are also super cheap and still need minimal input (assuming one is taking a Brood Brothers Spearhead for either Mortars, or a Supreme Command for some Tank Commanders, an Astropath is an easy 26pt slot in - and both Spearhead Mortars and SupCom Tank Commanders are pretty damn useful in their own ways).

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Do you folks think bumping the Warp Charge of Mental Onslaught to 7 could be a reasonable way to "nerf" (I hate that word) it? Ideally, I'd like the effects of the power to stay the same and not have a hard cap on the number of mortal wounds it could do so perhaps increasing the difficulty of casting the psychic power is the best way to do this.

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So as I’ve said in previous threads about mental onslaught, I’m wary of getting the Ld buffs/debuffs stacked. But I built a list focusing on that anyway and I would like to know everyone’s opinion on if it’s balanced or not (ignore the fact it’s 4 detachments for the time being)

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [44 PL, 797pts, -3CP] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Cult Creed: Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor

 

Specialist Detachment: Deliverance Broodsurge [-1CP]

 

Stratagem: Broodcoven [-1CP]

 

Stratagem: Grandsire's Gifts [-1CP]: 1 Extra Sacred Relic

 

+ HQ +

 

Acolyte Iconward [3 PL, 53pts]: Vial of the Grandsire's Blood

 

Patriarch [8 PL, 137pts]: 2. Inspiring Leader, Familiar, Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Mental Onslaught, The Crouchling, Warlord

 

Primus [4 PL, 75pts]: Bonesword, Broodcoven Primus, Warlord Trait: Alien Majesty

 

+ Troops +

 

Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 110pts]: Cult Icon

. 7x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 7x Hand Flamer

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer

 

Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 110pts]: Cult Icon

. 7x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 7x Hand Flamer

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer

 

Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 110pts]

. 5x Acolyte Hybrid

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

 

Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 110pts]

. 5x Acolyte Hybrid

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw

. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Atalan Jackals [5 PL, 92pts]

. Atalan Jackal: Demolition Charge, Shotgun

. Atalan Jackal: Demolition Charge, Shotgun

. Atalan Jackal: Demolition Charge, Shotgun

. Atalan Leader: Demolition Charge, Grenade Launcher

. Atalan Wolfquad: Atalan Incinerator, Shotgun

 

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [30 PL, 570pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Abominant [6 PL, 105pts]

 

Magus [4 PL, 80pts]: Broodcoven Magus, Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Might From Beyond, Warlord Trait: Inscrutable Cunning

 

+ Elites +

 

Aberrants [14 PL, 280pts]

. 4x Aberrant (Hammer): 4x Heavy Power Hammer

. 4x Aberrant (Pick): 4x Power Pick

. 2x Aberrant Hypermorph (Improvised): 2x Heavy Improvised Weapon

 

Clamavus [3 PL, 55pts]

 

Nexos [3 PL, 50pts]

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [11 PL, 145pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Regimental Doctrine: Brood Brothers

 

+ HQ +

 

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave, Psychic Maelstrom, Terrifying Visions

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

 

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

 

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [28 PL, 486pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Hive Fleet: Kraken

 

+ HQ +

 

Neurothrope [4 PL, 90pts]: Power: Catalyst

 

Neurothrope [4 PL, 90pts]: Power: The Horror

 

+ Troops +

 

Genestealers [16 PL, 240pts]: 5x Acid Maw

. 20x Genestealer: 20x Rending Claws

 

Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm

 

Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm

 

++ Total: [113 PL, 1998pts, -3CP] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

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In my last game (and first with hte new codex) I tried this power. My patriarch against a primaris captain. Of course I rolled a 2 and he a 5 and then he killed me in close combat! :D But I´m looking forward to try to get some awsome kill with it. 

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In my last game (and first with hte new codex) I tried this power. My patriarch against a primaris captain. Of course I rolled a 2 and he a 5 and then he killed me in close combat! :biggrin.: But I´m looking forward to try to get some awsome kill with it. 

 

Was this base Ld vs base Ld? So 10 vs 9?

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Yes, nothing special that helped to make it negative. But all I was trying to prove for those that think this power is overpowered, I don´t think so even if you can make it nasty. It´s stilla  game of chance, anything can happend

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You are right Kallas. It´s a strong power with lot of poteniall but is it worth to build a whole army about? One unlucky dice and it´s over.

As I've said before, it's far from a whole army. To reach auto killing Ld 9 it costs about 100-150pts of additionally units that aren't necessarily taken otherwise (Locus and Astropaths/Primaris Psykers), which still bring their own additional utility besides buffing Mental Onslaught.

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