GSC dealing with new Vanguard Primaris- Infiltrator Squad

[brother_b]

I've been browsing the internets and saw the new primaris miniatures incoming. These, of course, are lame to me because I'm no fan of the lore or roll out of all the newer primaris. I enjoyed the more traditional rolls of hellblasters, intercessors, etc. Anyway, not what I'm here for.

They are a troop choice.

They have Omni-Scramblers... No setting up anything within 12".

How the heck is this supposed to work with GSC?

They can set up anywhere outside 9" of enemy models and the enemy deployment zone. That could still be within 12" of a GSC blip.

Also, now even when using our perfect ambush stratagem now we have to start at 12" and hope for the higher D6" movement roll. How does this affect our strat to deepstrike within 3"?

Just thoughts. I'd like to keep this from being a whine session, I think I've done that well enough.

Take a look at these guys and lets ponder some solutions. I'm guessing that blip deployment will be FAQ'd to allow revealing of blips even within 12".

Otherwise these are some seriously good screening troops we'll have to chew through to make our drops.

[Runefyre]

Huh. So RAW omni-scramblers just auto-destroys units set up via ambush markers because models that can't be placed on the battlefield are automatically destroyed. I doubt that's an intended interaction, hopefully we get a clarification on that. 

 

The obvious answer is to screen blips with units set up normally (like lining the edge of your deployment zone with sentinels and brood brothers). Keep the blips towards the middle/back of your deployment zone.

 

Then charge in and kill them for daring to deploy so close to your deployment zone. My rock saws are ready.

 

Autocannons also deal with primaris marines quite handily, and I tend to bring a lot of them (sentinels, heavy weapon teams, goliaths).

Edited March 3, 2019 by Runefyre

[Dosjetka]

The thing is, I thought blip-units don't count as reinforcements as they are considered as being on the battlefield with regards to Matched Play Tactical Reserves? So that would mean they aren't affected by the omni-scramblers.

 

Or perhaps I'm getting this wrong? :huh:

[Runefyre]

The thing is, I thought blip-units don't count as reinforcements as they are considered as being on the battlefield with regards to Matched Play Tactical Reserves? So that would mean they aren't affected by the omni-scramblers.

 

Or perhaps I'm getting this wrong?

Blips don't count as reinforcements for the tactical reserves rule only, but are still treated as reinforcements for all other rules (as tactical reinforcements is the only rule they are specifically exempted from). The entry for revealing ambush markers states that even though they "have arrived as reinforcements this turn" they're exempt from the movement penalty for firing heavy weapons unless they actually move. So yeah RAW they're reinforcements. 

[Halandaar]

The thing is, I thought blip-units don't count as reinforcements as they are considered as being on the battlefield with regards to Matched Play Tactical Reserves? So that would mean they aren't affected by the omni-scramblers.

 

Or perhaps I'm getting this wrong?

 

That's certainly how I would reason it, that they are on the field already, but the wording in the Codex for Cult Ambush calls out that units set up from blip markers "have arrived as reinforcements this turn", so I don't think we could safely argue it from a RAW point of view.

 

Anyway, I'm not too fussed about the way it might interact with blips, as there are a couple of stratagems we can use to mitigate the impact of Infiltrators;

 

Scanner Decoys (1CP) get the three extra blips and use those to screen the front of the deployment zone; enemy units (including Infiltrators) can't move within 9" of them, so as long as your "real" units are at least 3" behind those front blips, they won't be affected.

 

Meticulous Uprising (1CP) - Anything else that can't be shielded by the above, just spend another CP to simply move 3 blip tokens back into safer spots.

 

Sure it's potentially 2CP burned, but that's not a big spend in the grand scheme of things if it prevents you from losing units. The real problem, IMO, is how it affects units coming in from Underground. Combat Squads of Infiltrators can essentially create a denial zone that spans the entire board, essentially forcing you to bring everything on inside your deployment zone, including the juicy combat stuff you really wanted to get up-close. 

 

It does feel pretty bad that a major component of the way GSC plays is hard-countered by the very next release out of the door, and I can't say I'm pleased about it. 

[Link2edition]

Shoot them turm 1, underground ambush turn 2, or even turn 3 if you aren't happy with enemy positioning.

All they are is a slightly better screening unit, they aren't a hard counter or anything. I promise you if you leave anything within 9 of my deployment zone turn 1, It won't be there turn 2.

And if they use it against stuff in your deployment zone, stop playing with that person until it gets FAQ'd, or just don't use blips on units at the edge of your zone, I have found blips most useful for hiding where my big shooty units are going to be anyway.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Link2edition

[Marshlands]

It really depends on their cost and usage in the meta, if there's several unirsnin may become tricky.

 

Apart from that trick, they seem like a fairly average unit, so maybe it's better the points aren't invested in something nastier

 

Worst case I guess perfect ambush from 12 away and hope you can get a decent distance and charge roll

[brother_b]

Anything else on this? Anything new? I haven’t been up on the most recent FAQ and am wondering.

[Arson Fire]

Anything else on this? Anything new? I haven’t been up on the most recent FAQ and am wondering.

 

It hasn't changed in any FAQs that I'm aware of.

 

Blipped units can still be wrecked by being within 12" of an omni-scrambler, but it's not much of a threat due to there being 3 stratagems related to adding, removing, or moving 3 blips, + a nexos to let you move an extra one.  Letting you have 10 blips in range before you have to worry about losing anything.  More than enough to build a wall around the rest of your blips.

 

The marines are more likely to be in trouble due to forward deploying vs an assault army.

 

 

The far more effective way to use omni-scramblers is to screen the rest of the marine army against ambushers.

[brother_b]

So I could deploy up my blips. His Omni scrambler troops would then deploy outside of 9” of my blips but would still be within 12” potentially forcing me to delete my blips due to inability to deploy.

 

I just use some stratagem shenanigans to move my blips around.

 

Sounds good... problem. Ambushing units get boned. No Kellermorph goodness dropping in close and blasting characters, no 9” then d6” movement strat, no deploy within 3” strat.

 

Good to know and plan around.

[Arson Fire]

Yeah, so basically you need some units capable of blasting away the screening omni-scrambler units.  Which is kind of just standard play for cults.  Against pretty much any army, you've gotta have something to deal with those screens.  You just get punished a little harder in this case if you can't do it.

[brother_b]

Makes sense. I've got a lot of stuff lined up to paint. Nothing super competitive, I guess, because I'm not really into the tourney/net list thing. I do play to win though.

 

I've got a bunch of neophytes, some acolytes, and then a smattering of other units. I love aberrants and have 10, I'll probably get more. That's for another topic though.

 

The forum is pretty slow, I'm hoping someone with recent game-play experience will chime in on playing against the newer space marines/omni-scrambler units.

[Rogue]

Why do omni-scramblers prevent the lying in wait 3" stratagem? It already over-rides the 9" restriction, so why wouldn't it over-ride 12" too?

 

I can't speak from experience regarding the newer primaris units, but I've had some success using genestealers that start on the table, especially Kraken ones. The combination of 3d6-pick-the-best advances and the stratagem to double that roll makes first turn charges very doable, and they can make a mist out of screening units.

[Arson Fire]

Why do omni-scramblers prevent the lying in wait 3" stratagem? It already over-rides the 9" restriction, so why wouldn't it over-ride 12" too?

 

Because Lying In Wait is no different from other deepstrike rules, except that it has a shorter minimum distance.

Most deepstrike rules say you can appear 9" away. Lying in wait is the same, except it says 3".

 

Omni-scramblers block it for the exact same reason they block other forms of deepstrike.

[Rogue]

But couldn't you equally make the argument that Lying in Wait over-rides Omni-scramblers in the same way that it over-rides the regular 9" restriction.

 

In effect, they ignore the 'no deploy' bubble, whether it's 9" or 12". Neither rule seems to have any comment on which would take precedent. I would suggest that stratagems, in general, offer ways to bypass the usual rules (move after ambushing, have three warlords, exceed the reserves limit), which makes me think that in this particular case, the specific stratagem would overrule the more general unit ability.

 

But that's just my thought, and not based on anything other than a feeling about general patterns.

[shanewatts]

But couldn't you equally make the argument that Lying in Wait over-rides Omni-scramblers in the same way that it over-rides the regular 9" restriction.

 

In effect, they ignore the 'no deploy' bubble, whether it's 9" or 12". Neither rule seems to have any comment on which would take precedent. I would suggest that stratagems, in general, offer ways to bypass the usual rules (move after ambushing, have three warlords, exceed the reserves limit), which makes me think that in this particular case, the specific stratagem would overrule the more general unit ability.

 

But that's just my thought, and not based on anything other than a feeling about general patterns.

 

One of the FAQs explicitly mentions that the Omni overrides everything, I'll look for it when I get a chance. So Lying in Wait won't help you with it.

 

 

The forum is pretty slow, I'm hoping someone with recent game-play experience will chime in on playing against the newer space marines/omni-scrambler units.

 

I have recently started playing GSC more often (just finished 9 rounds with them at NOVA haha), as soon as I get some games vs the scramblers I'll be happy to share.

 

My theorycrafting in this, starting aberrants on the table (preferably out of LoS, if not in terrain and behind another unit), which leads to a turn 1 charge which should obliterate infilitrators that are forward deployed.

[Arson Fire]

But couldn't you equally make the argument that Lying in Wait over-rides Omni-scramblers in the same way that it over-rides the regular 9" restriction.

 

In effect, they ignore the 'no deploy' bubble, whether it's 9" or 12". Neither rule seems to have any comment on which would take precedent. I would suggest that stratagems, in general, offer ways to bypass the usual rules (move after ambushing, have three warlords, exceed the reserves limit), which makes me think that in this particular case, the specific stratagem would overrule the more general unit ability.

 

But that's just my thought, and not based on anything other than a feeling about general patterns.

 

Let's look at the wording of each rule.

 

Most deepstrike rules -> '...set the unit up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.'

 

Lying In Wait -> 'Use this Stratagem when you set up a unit from your army that has the Cult Ambush ability as reinforcements. When setting up that unit, it can be set up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 3" from any enemy models,...'

 

Omni-Scramblers -> 'Enemy units that are set up on the battlefield as reinforcements cannot be set up within 12" of this unit'

 

 

As you can see, Lying In Wait simply provides an alternate method of setting up an ambushing unit that lets it drop more than 3" away rather than more than 9" away.

It doesn't so much override the 9" distance of normal cult ambush, as provide a new deepstrike rule that gives a different distance.

 

If you argued that Lying In Wait could be used to set up 3" away from an omni-scrambler, then I could equally argue that a regular deepstrike could still be used to set up 9" away. As the regular deepstrike wording is no less strong.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Arson Fire

[Rogue]

Fair point.

 

I couldn't find the FAQ shanewatts mentioned, which might settle things, but in the meantime, I think you might be right.

 

Back to running up the table and blending them with genestealers, then :)

[shanewatts]

This is covered in the Shadowspear FAQ:

 

 

[Rogue]

Ah. Didn't think of Shadowspear. I was looking in the others. Thanks for adding that.

[Akrim]

Never seen Infiltrators run larger than a 5 man unit which isnt much. But if theyre bold enough to get that close to your lines remember the Nexos strategic coordinator rule - take your choice of killy unit and move a blip 9” away (edge of deployment) and go stab them silly.

[shanewatts]

If your opponent is smart and just uses the Infiltrators as his front line units (to screen out drops from reserve), you have to rely either on shooting to take care of them (Bladed Cog neophytes with mining lasers from reserve) or gamble on a perfect ambush charge with + to charge. Potentially can shoot them as well with Kelermorphs you started on the table as Blips (that will probably have to advance turn 1 to get into range.)

 

If they forward deploy the infiltrators, you should be able to mop them up with something you started in a blip, see aberrants.

Edited September 10, 2019 by shanewatts