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What will the Lion do when he wakes?


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#26
shabbadoo

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I think one of the most overlooked little tidbits of lore about the Lion is from The First Heretic. Ten Primarchs were claimed by Chaos when they were scattered throughout the galaxy, and all signs point to it being the nine who fell plus the Lion.

 

Not likely. You must recall that there are TWO other legions that were eradicated from existence, and it wasn't because they were too loyal to the emperor. Besides, by sheer willpower, The Lion overcame growing up on a Chaos-riddled deathworld. Sure, he may have had a bit of help from The Watchers, but he was not corrupted. Furthermore, the Dark Angels geneseed is the purest of them all; even more so than that of the Ultramarines (just by a hair though). Read all of the books and you will see that The Lion never wavers. After Istvaan V, The only reason he hesitates to take action at certain points is because he is gathering information on who is still loyal and who is not, because it would be tactically moronic to strike out blindly. There are also certain things hindering those actions, such as warp storms, the Night Lords, and the Death Guard. For somebody who could be potenially corrupted, a good deal of traitor scum were sure doing their damndest to wipe The Lion and his legion out. Kurze alone tests The Lion on more than one occasion, and The Lion is not found wanting. Also, don't forget that Horus sent The Lion and others to the arse ends of space precisely because they were dangerous as hell and couldn't be corrupted, so Horus wanted them out of the way.

 

His homeworld was, after all, deeply tainted by Chaos. For all the jokes about the Dark Angels being traitors and whatnot (and believe me, I certainly give my share of ribbing to our local DA player), the truth is the narrative shouldn't be that the Dark Angels failed when half their number turned to Chaos. The reality is that *despite being marked to turn by the primordial truth*, fully half of the legion and El'Johnson stayed completely loyal. The only mistake they made was to then cover it up for ten millennia. But, truthfully, I think it speaks to their loyalty that they defied fate and didn't completely turn. On the same note I can't see the Lion turning to Chaos now. He was effectively born into Chaos, fought monstrosities, and even consorted with Daemons and still didn't fall. He's not going anywhere if they stay true to what's already been written.

 

The other Primarchs who fell were, for the most part, not literally raised on a planet rotten to the core with Chaos. Magnus would be the exception, I guess. And yet The Lion stayed uncorrupted, and the others fell. No other loyalist Primarch was even remotely tested in this manner. I see this is just further testament to The Lion's willpower, and agree that he would not turn to Chaos. That would just be anathema to everything he is. Now, what I think is a possibility is that he would see the current Imperium as an abomination, and perhaps be less tolerant of its flaws than Guilliman. The Lion's demeanor would no doubt further feed the Dark Angels' narrative of surliness. It would be nice to see The Lion take on the role of Avenging Angel in partnership with Guilliman in the role of Statesman. Besides, Guilliman needs somebody around to call him out on his occasional bull$#@! ideas. ;) Finally, I think The Lion would push for some Primaris Ravenwing and Deathwing, if only just to hear one of the Fallen say, "Is it my imagination, or are they BIGGER than the last time we ran into them?" :P   


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#27
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Even if he returs - prepere for massive disappointment. GW will certainly fail to take into account all nuances, subtleties and even logic only to follow their own pathetic narrative. I bet they will just recreate Imperium Secundus plotline in some way.

In fact I already have a plot:

 

Lion awakes. Changeling disguised as a Dark Angels succsesor arrives at the Rock and offers him a position of the Warmaster in Abbadon's army. When Lion refuses (Loyalty is its own reward!) , he reveals his identity. To punish the Lion for his lack of ambition and unflinching loyalty to the Emperor, Changeling transforms him into a Lion-beast and his Dark Angels into household objects. He warns the primarch that the curse will only be broken if he learns to love another, and earn their love in return.

Ten years later, in a nearby sector, a beautiful young Living Saint named Celestine dreams of the Emperor and brushes off advances from Cato Sicarius, a handsome, narcissistic and arrogant Ultramarines 2nd company captain. On his way to Mars and lost in the warp storms, Belisarius Cawl (Celestine's Friend) seeks refuge in the Rock, but the Lion imprisons him. When Cawl's Arc Mechanicum returns without him, Celestine ventures out in search for him, and finds him locked in the Aldurukh dungeon. The Lion agrees to let her take Cawl's place...

 

You know how it goes from here.


Edited by rendingon1+, 10 March 2019 - 01:05 PM.

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#28
Phoebus

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I think one of the most overlooked little tidbits of lore about the Lion is from The First Heretic. Ten Primarchs were claimed by Chaos when they were scattered throughout the galaxy, and all signs point to it being the nine who fell plus the Lion.

This is one of those interesting instances where author’s intent is a real thing. If I recall correctly, A D-B posted on this board to the effect that this was meant as an homage to the old material, wherein the Lion’s loyalties were doubted. Depending on how passionately you hold on to what is written in the canon, though, the passage in question obviously carries significant implications.

... the truth is the narrative shouldn't be that the Dark Angels failed when half their number turned to Chaos. The reality is that *despite being marked to turn by the primordial truth*, fully half of the legion and El'Johnson stayed completely loyal.

And this is one of those instances where the background context matters. With respect, the reality is that the entire legion stayed loyal, but that Luther used his position to raise a separate force of tens of thousands of Space Marines who were only ostensibly part of the Dark Angels Legion.

Comparable — though not identical — situations have shown that what happened with Luther was not unique, but rather a case of willingness intersecting with opportunity. Hasik Noyan-Khan was utterly loyal to Jaghatai Khan, but tried to effect a benign coup to get him to rebel against the Emperor. Likewise, there are rumors of a Great Company of Space Wolves taking up the cause of the Warmaster. They, and the other “elements, sometimes whole companies and commands” that joined Horus didn’t have the resources Luther did.

But open rebellion against one of his loyal brothers against The Emperor's will? I just don't think it'd happen without a ton of handwavium at play.

Agreed.

Edited by Phoebus, 11 March 2019 - 12:07 AM.

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#29
farfromsam

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Love this thread. With as bad as they fouled up guillimans return I hope the Lion receives kinder handling. I like phoebus' thoughts of a fully utilized Rock, and the nod toward legion rebuilding, but I think shabbadoo is right (well, hopefully not the lvo stuff). GW might use Johnson's return to push the galaxy wide story arc in a silly direction. What I fear most is the Lion chumming up to xenos rather than crushing their wind pipes.

I like the basic primaris models, and dislike their flying dwarf models, but I'd prefer this split between the old scale and new scale to end. Finish the line, and let us use the regular marines as primaris. It's going to happen eventually, I'd prefer them not to lie telling me my army will be supported, and then giving them awful rules.

If nothing else, the models are tops, here's to hoping we don't get swindled into a single Lion model rather than a 30k, and 40k one. Ohhh I want watchers hanging around.
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#30
Grand Master Raziel

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We have two Primarchs and a pseudo Primarch on the way for Chaos, while loyalists have 1. I don't think we'll have to wait long for our Lion anymore. And I expect Russ wouldn't be far behind, since he disappeared to look for the Lion. 

Russ shows up 6 months after the Lion as re-awakened, his armor rent and torn, his beard and hair wild and shaggy, his face caked in dirt and blood. 

 

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN IN YOUR OWN BED ALL THIS TIME!" Russ demands.

Leads to the second 24-hour-long fistfight between the Lion and the Wolf.


Edited by Grand Master Raziel, 14 March 2019 - 02:41 PM.

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#31
The_son_of_Dorn

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To be honest I am more than willing to bet that if the Lion does wake up he'll be more focused on trying to reunify his legion. The Codex Astarte's was initiated without him actually being present and I am sure that with all the characteristics he could still retain (if managed properly by GW of course) being the mini Emperor that he is he would seek to reclaim some of his own personal military influence and presence.

 

I also do not believe that the Lions return would generate any further internal degeneration within the Imperium. Yes we all know that the Lion wanted the position of Warmaster for himself but that lends itself more to the military dictatorship aspect of the Lion, as apposed to the Administrative complexities  that currently suit Robby G as Imperial regent. The only "issue" I can see is that if the Lion retains any of his jealousy character flaws he may be somewhat annoyed that Robby was self appointed in this role and title (however, this is rightfully so as it was indeed Gman who has endeared to return a vast level of stability to the current Imperium) I could however see a lot of these problems being rectified with a simple meeting of the two. Guilliman would probably be happy to take a back seat and further strengthen political and military foundations across the Imperium as a whole while the Lion acts as a proxy "Warmaster" and issues a few heretical arse kicking's as the head of current Imperial military forces.

 

Failing all that however, worst case scenario I can see is the Lion goes back to being his own master and doing exactly what he wants with his legion as he has always done. undeterred by current circumstances even in the presence of such vast change.


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#32
GreyRavenC

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We have two Primarchs and a pseudo Primarch on the way for Chaos, while loyalists have 1. I don't think we'll have to wait long for our Lion anymore. And I expect Russ wouldn't be far behind, since he disappeared to look for the Lion. 

Russ shows up 6 months after the Lion as re-awakened, his armor rent and torn, his beard and hair wild and shaggy, his face caked in dirt and blood. 

 

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN IN YOUR OWN BED ALL THIS TIME!" Russ demands.

Leads to the second 24-hour-long fistfight between the Lion and the Wolf.

 

 

But something still has to happen to wake the Lion up. I believe that a 'Snow white-ish' scenario would be best.

 

Russ, bare chested with only his destroyed lower armour clinging to him, stalks into the room. There he was, in a fresh tunic and his shining blond hair flowing over his chest. After 10.000 years of searching for his brother, his rival, his friend in the madness of the Warp, he finally found him. He opened the stasis pod with trembling hands, and slowly pressed his lips against those of the Lions. The Lion slowly opened his eyes and whispered 'Russ, is that you?'. Russ slowly reaches behind the Lion's head and lifts it up so he can look right in his face. Then he savagely headbutts his brother on the freakin' nose. "YOU'VE BEEN HERE THIS WHOLE TIME?! I LITERALLY LOOKED FOR YOU IN HELL FOR 10.000 YEARS, AND YOU WERE IN YOUR DAMN BED THIS WHOLE TIME?" Then Russ pummeled his brother, which started a brawl that would echo across the stars.


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#33
Angel of Solitude

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I've seen this topic on the board for a while, but never really commented as I've had to let this stew for a long time.

 

My first thought is that if the Lion comes back, then it has to be complimentary to the current ethos of the Dark Angels - i.e. the obsession over hunting the Fallen, and the structures that sit around it - Deathwing, Ravenwing, Inner Circle etc. You just cannot expect the Lion to return, and his Legion to just magically restructure into a new/reformed Dark Angels.

 

The Lion's return will force the issue of the Fallen into the open. At the time it happened, the Dark Angels were not aware of other loyalist legions turning to Horus, although we now know that this was the case - White Scars as an example. Likewise, since the heresy there have been many examples of loyal chapters turning traitor. The 1st Legion are therefore far from unique as they believe they are with regards to "Fallen".

 

There is also evidence to suggest that RG knows full well about the Fallen - I can't for one minute believe that he remains ignorant after all that time spent with Cypher. In my head, RG has accepted this and allows it to continue, for one considerable reason: it has developed the Dark Angels into a chapter that is highly proficient at seeking out and destroying heretic astartes...with a healthy dose of interrogation mixed in. Who cares if they are originally from the 1st Legion? Heretic Astartes from the other 8 loyal legions are equally dangerous.

 

So to push this trail of thought on a bit more:

Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights

Ordo Xenos - Deathwatch

Ordo Hereticus - Adepta Sororitas Dark Angels...

 

So when the Lion awakes, he takes a reasoned view of the galaxy, quickly understands the key threats, and realises that this silly hunt for the Fallen is too much of a distraction. He then links up with RG, has a good conversation about the Codex Astartes, and points out that the "one size fits all" approach isn't optimal, points to the success of his own legion organisation in hunting heretic / renegade Astartes. RG agrees, puts the Lion in charge of a specialist "Heretic Hunting" legion despite the protestation of the Inquisition.

 

The Dark Angels retain their structure, and gain pride at their renewed purpose. They are still obsessed with hunting the Fallen, only now they're the Fallen from not just one, but all 9 of the loyalist legions (and their subsequent chapters).


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#34
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I like that idea!
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#35
Indefragable

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(Lion wakes up, yawns, stands up, stretches and hits an intercom to the Grand Master's Office)

"Hey kiddo, it's me, what have I missed?

...

What? Whoa-whoa-whoa, slow down, slow down! Huh? What do you mean they blew up the Death Star? you created a 10-Millennia long conspiracy covered up Luther's censored.gif and murdered anyone who even came close to finding out?!

...

What the hell is an Ordo Hereticus?!"

Okay, no lie, I could honestly see the Lion having that response. Because while he's had his secrets, the stuff his sons have pulled in the intervening 10 millennia blow his out of the water.

 

Also, "What the hell is an Ordo Hereticus?!" is brilliant, and I could actually see Lion El'Jonson thinking that, if not saying it.

 

 

I was kinda thinking a more grimdark-y version of this: https://youtu.be/et-s_GnUNBw


Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#36
Indefragable

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We have two Primarchs and a pseudo Primarch on the way for Chaos, while loyalists have 1. I don't think we'll have to wait long for our Lion anymore. And I expect Russ wouldn't be far behind, since he disappeared to look for the Lion. 

Russ shows up 6 months after the Lion as re-awakened, his armor rent and torn, his beard and hair wild and shaggy, his face caked in dirt and blood. 

 

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN IN YOUR OWN BED ALL THIS TIME!" Russ demands.

Leads to the second 24-hour-long fistfight between the Lion and the Wolf.

 

 

But something still has to happen to wake the Lion up. I believe that a 'Snow white-ish' scenario would be best.

 

Russ, bare chested with only his destroyed lower armour clinging to him, stalks into the room. There he was, in a fresh tunic and his shining blond hair flowing over his chest. After 10.000 years of searching for his brother, his rival, his friend in the madness of the Warp, he finally found him. He opened the stasis pod with trembling hands, and slowly pressed his lips against those of the Lions. The Lion slowly opened his eyes and whispered 'Russ, is that you?'. Russ slowly reaches behind the Lion's head and lifts it up so he can look right in his face. Then he savagely headbutts his brother on the freakin' nose. "YOU'VE BEEN HERE THIS WHOLE TIME?! I LITERALLY LOOKED FOR YOU IN HELL FOR 10.000 YEARS, AND YOU WERE IN YOUR DAMN BED THIS WHOLE TIME?" Then Russ pummeled his brother, which started a brawl that would echo across the stars.

 

 

Russ shakes the Lion awake, eyes glaring. The Lion frantically searches for his sword....

 

"Don't bother, brother..." Russ says in a low voice.

 

"You've come to finish the deed?" The Lion says, his own choler rising at such a cowardly ambush."

 

"Freth, no!" Russ says in exasperation."I'm tagging you in: it's your turn! I've been running around the Warp for 10,000 years while you've been snoozing. I need a nap and you need to take a stab at that mess." Russ climbs into the sleeping pod, yanks the door closed and starts snoring.


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Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#37
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My first thought is that if the Lion comes back, then it has to be complimentary to the current ethos of the Dark Angels - i.e. the obsession over hunting the Fallen, and the structures that sit around it - Deathwing, Ravenwing, Inner Circle etc. You just cannot expect the Lion to return, and his Legion to just magically restructure into a new/reformed Dark Angels.

I think the idea is quite interesting, but consider a few things:

The current structure of the Unforgiven is not exactly in conflict with the structure of the Dark Angels Legion circa the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. The Inner Circle is an evolution of a complex structure of initiation that was inherited by the Order and helped keep the Dark Angels immune to infiltration by the Alpha Legion and the manipulations of Erebus’s Warrior Lodges. The First and Second Companies find their origins in the Ordinations of the Hexagrammaton, which itself was inspired by the original “Six Hosts” organizational structure of the original Angels of Death. What the Inner Circle did was repurpose two of those Ordinations to the Hunt for the Fallen, and make them part of the Chapter’s regular order of battle.

So if the Lion chose to reform the Unforgiven into more or less a proper legion, he would not necessarily be introducing any concepts truly unfamiliar to them. In fact, who’s to say the Lion would revert the Deathwing and Ravenwing into ordinations? At the end of the day, that scheme was more about style than substance: does a commander really need to cede command to a specialist because, e.g., the fight has turned artillery-centric? That might work if you’re talking about proscribed specialties (like the Dreadwing, whose weapons were meant to be a last result), but otherwise that kind of compartmentalization of knowledge becomes self-defeating. The question then becomes, are the skills associated with the Storming (boarding actions, breaching), Firewing (I would imagine the Devastators have this locked down) Ironwing (armored warfare) and Dreadwing maintained in the Third-Ninth Companies? Or would the Lion need to reintroduce them? I don’t think that would pose an issue.

The Lion's return will force the issue of the Fallen into the open. At the time it happened, the Dark Angels were not aware of other loyalist legions turning to Horus, although we now know that this was the case - White Scars as an example. Likewise, since the heresy there have been many examples of loyal chapters turning traitor. The 1st Legion are therefore far from unique as they believe they are with regards to "Fallen".

This is tricky, isn’t it? On the one hand, you’re completely correct: that bit of lore has been turned on its head with loyalists from Traitor Legions and traitors from Loyalist Legions. On the other hand, though, I suppose one could argue that it was the Dark Angels’ specific psychology that drove their reaction to the destruction of Caliban. Likewise, the newer explanation wherein the Dark Angels were worried about the paranoia and purges of the Imperium is also valid. After all, their defining battle occurred after the Heresy; they may very well have been the only ones who would have to worry about that kind of stigma in the open at that point.

So to push this trail of thought on a bit more:
...
Ordo Hereticus - Adepta Sororitas Dark Angels...

I don’t know... My initial response was that this sounds really cool, but my second thought is that it’s a concept with too many uncontrollable factors for the Lion. We haven’t really explored how Inquisitors feel about the returned Primarch, and you can bet there’s a healthy number who have had their eyes cast at the Unforgiven for some time now. I don’t see a brotherhood notoriously defined by ruthless secrecy either suborning themselves to the Inquisition or working alongside them — or even the Ordo Hereticus tolerating the Unforgiven’s opaqueness.

So when the Lion awakes, he takes a reasoned view of the galaxy, quickly understands the key threats, and realises that this silly hunt for the Fallen is too much of a distraction. He then links up with RG, has a good conversation about the Codex Astartes, and points out that the "one size fits all" approach isn't optimal, points to the success of his own legion organisation in hunting heretic / renegade Astartes. RG agrees, puts the Lion in charge of a specialist "Heretic Hunting" legion despite the protestation of the Inquisition.

I think Marbas kidnapping Luther and rallying tens of thousands of Fallen (per the latest Codex) kind of makes the above a moot point. There won’t be a Hunt for the Fallen any more because it will have shifted to a War Against the Fallen.

Edited by Phoebus, 15 March 2019 - 09:23 PM.

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#38
CardinalVirtue

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I just hope they go somewhere with that soon. They got the band back together but I want to know where their first gig is.

#39
Indefragable

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Ok, so all my jokes above aside, here’s a thought:

At the HH weekender seminar on upcoming Book 9, the writers hinted at how the I Legion was equipped with weapons and wargear of Terranic or Calibanite creation, but never with Martian pattern weapons. Even their Praevians and such used terran-built automata.

Why?

The I Legion was the Emperor’s failsafe should the Mechanicum ever back out of the treaty.

The counterweight, the kingmakers. Dark Angels....Watchers in the Dark.

“Brother, I follow your requests, but never your orders.”
-the Lion to Guilliman, after the battle of Skrigia, M41.
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Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#40
Phoebus

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That is some awesome lore!... But wait, the quote in the bottom is invented, right?

#41
Indefragable

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That is some awesome lore!... But wait, the quote in the bottom is invented, right?

 

Yes.


Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#42
Phoebus

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I figured as much... but that would have been some way to drop a massive revelation!

#43
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Out of curiosity, was there an update on when Book 9 is due?
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#44
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I want a FW model before 30k dies. And I hope it's better than the over ambitious sham sanguinius got.




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