The State of Orks

[toaae]

You can deploy multiple units in Tellyporta, as deployment isn't a phase for the purposes of the matched play "once per phase" restriction on stratagems.

[Warhead01]

You can deploy multiple units in Tellyporta, as deployment isn't a phase for the purposes of the matched play "once per phase" restriction on stratagems.

This got me thinking about that list. With 25 cp and what you just posted I wonder how many units were in his porta. Having some many small units in that list. I was thinking he'd spend a turn killing out a unit, taking space then drop a unit on a cleared objective?  Still some match ups would be really bad for that.

[Warhead01]

It took me two days but I managed to sit through a battle report featuring one of  the games Nick Nanavati played. He has 218 models and went 5 or 6 rounds in roughly an hour and a half. 
Which was interesting and a way for him to continue hauling in the points for his score. He's had the game won in basically 3 turns. It's interesting because in my mind I always try to stay focused and go for the kill. He was in that leaving a single Eldar character on the table for 2 extra turns for the score. Clever.  
​I stick with my initial thoughts of just following players who consistently play Orks at events.  This video also shows me just how differently I have approached playing games, tournaments and my usual games. 
I'd like to see more of these games against other match-ups but haven't looked for them yet.  He had the Eldar 4 to 1 or more in model count so I would have trouble thinking the Orks would not win that match.  What got me is how he economized his turn, moving units but only really shooting with his Lootas mob which would shoot twice doing loads of damage.
Even his assault phases seemed to go quickly but I think that also had to do with his opponent not having many models or options once the Orks were stuck in.
 

[toaae]

Talking about the state of Orks, that's a Facebook post from the guy who runs 40kstats.com. Seems since LVO (early February), Orks have been doing very good at tournaments.

Ignore the first line, he isn't actually advocating Ork nerfs. He was replying to someone saying Orks aren't very important in the meta. I know, I talked to him about it.

[PiñaColada]

Orks are indeed doing quite well, but are also highly dependent on a couple of tricks that might go away soon. Nobody who runs boyz hordes at higher level's actually run them on 32's instead 25mms (meaning you get an extra row of attacks in) and everyone is still spamming Index-only HQs. If GW (or a big enough tournament that others will suit) decides to start enforcing base sizes and Index goes away in a FAQ/CA then Orks will have to be run quite different I think.

There also have been some rumblings of making "Mob up" only work on boyz, which is probably a good thing in the end IMO. It would end up being a soft nerf to the Loota bomb but overall no big deal as the unit size is still 15.

 

I also personally wonder if they aren't going to change the "Kustom Ammo" stratagem from the dread waaagh detachment. Everyone takes that detachment basically solely for the "souped up shokka" and that strat. Since the relic is just an extra d6 shots I doubt it's going to be changed but giving an army two different shoot again stratagems (this and the bad moons one) feels off IMO. If they change kustom ammo to give you +1 to wound with a weapon or something (that has to be used before rolling for stats) like that it would drastically reduce the prevalence of the entire detachment I think.

 

Overall Orks are in a good place, but they're also surprisingly homogenic for an army as bonkers as ours. A couple of tweaks are really needed in the FAQ to help out the buggies, bikes, burnas etc and balance out wargear costs I think

[FlamingDeth]

Anyone who starts enforcing base sizes can bite me, I'm not paying for 200 32mm bases, or putting in the effort to rebase that many models, especially since most of them are stuck on with plastic cement.

[Warhead01]

Orks are indeed doing quite well, but are also highly dependent on a couple of tricks that might go away soon. Nobody who runs boyz hordes at higher level's actually run them on 32's instead 25mms (meaning you get an extra row of attacks in) and everyone is still spamming Index-only HQs. If GW (or a big enough tournament that others will suit) decides to start enforcing base sizes and Index goes away in a FAQ/CA then Orks will have to be run quite different I think.

 

There also have been some rumblings of making "Mob up" only work on boyz, which is probably a good thing in the end IMO. It would end up being a soft nerf to the Loota bomb but overall no big deal as the unit size is still 15.

 

I also personally wonder if they aren't going to change the "Kustom Ammo" stratagem from the dread waaagh detachment. Everyone takes that detachment basically solely for the "souped up shokka" and that strat. Since the relic is just an extra d6 shots I doubt it's going to be changed but giving an army two different shoot again stratagems (this and the bad moons one) feels off IMO. If they change kustom ammo to give you +1 to wound with a weapon or something (that has to be used before rolling for stats) like that it would drastically reduce the prevalence of the entire detachment I think.

 

Overall Orks are in a good place, but they're also surprisingly homogenic for an army as bonkers as ours. A couple of tweaks are really needed in the FAQ to help out the buggies, bikes, burnas etc and balance out wargear costs I think

 

This isn't aimed at you just commenting.

 

I really hate how many faq's and extra new rules come out this edition, it's a sad thing that tournaments have such a strong effect on the rules these days. 

It's a large part of my lack of interest in actually trying to play a game any more. 

Trying to limit mob up to boys (because of the loota bomb?) is just petty.  It's also, very likely a result of the itc terrain rules interaction.  It shouldn't be a GW decisions, if it's too good for tournaments that group should just house rule it. 

Where are these base size rules?  

I hope for none of this at all. 

I had heard about the relic SAG but couldn't find it in the codex so I guess if from another book. I haven't been keeping up, which book is it in?

[PiñaColada]

Oh, no offence taken.

One of the things I said GW should do in the survey was to add (and keep updating) all relevant FAQs to the back of all digital codices as an addendum, just to simplify all the clutter. That tournaments are changing the game for everyone just seems to be they way it's gonna go at this point, even though they should implement tournament play as a changed type of matched play IMO (technically they have tournament suggestions but that whole wording is just odd).

The loota bomb is sort of problematic since lootas on their own are pretty pants, but the amount of buffs they can get make them extraordinary. So even at 15 they are pretty darn good in their potential, at 25 it makes them bonkers flat out (obviously still somewhat matchup dependent). Limiting "Mob up" to just boyz would reign them in somewhat but would also hit other units, so that might not be the best way. Otherwise a change to mob up could just be that a unit cannot exceed their datasheet maximum of models (other than in the case of boyz). As I said, there have been rumblings of a change to mob up but they haven't specified how it's changing (assuming it even is), so the suggested fixes are simply my own guesses.

 

Regarding base sizes GWs stance is that you should use the base size the models came with but it's also not enforced at all if you choose to use an older base size since they can't really know if your boyz came with 25's or 32's (you can't put a unit on a base size that they've historically never been on though). Just in the case of boyz this matters more than one might think since a model can attack if they're within 1" of someone who's within 1" of an enemy model. 1 inch is 25,4mm and the old base sizes are 25mm meaning you can attack with 3 rows of models rather than with just 2 rows because of 32mm bases.

 

The souped-up shokka is a relic SAG which is identical to the regular SAG except it fires 2d6 shots instead of 1d6. It's from the dread waaagh detachment from Vigilus Defiant (the first vigilus book). That detachment also unlocks "Kustom Ammo" which lets a dread waaagh unit (big meks, morkanaut,gorkanaut,deff dread) fire again for 2CP. It's a super common specialist detachment for Orks in tournaments since both the relic and that stratagem are really useful. My personal opinion is that no army should be able to shoot two different units twice in every phase so I'm sort of hoping the stratagem is changed.

[toaae]

Trying to limit mob up to boys (because of the loota bomb?) is just petty.  It's also, very likely a result of the itc terrain rules interaction.  It shouldn't be a GW decisions, if it's too good for tournaments that group should just house rule it. 

 

I can't imagine how the power of the Loota Bomb is in anyway related to ITC terrain rules interactions. As a ranged shooting unit, the LoS-blocking rules ITC uses (which, IMO, are way better than the base terrain rules) only negatively impacts Lootas.

 

And, yes, a change to Mob Up would seek to limit the power of stacking More Dakka!!! and Showin' Off when used on Lootas.

 

Regarding base sizes GWs stance is that you should use the base size the models came with but it's also not enforced at all if you choose to use an older base size since they can't really know if your boyz came with 25's or 32's (you can't put a unit on a base size that they've historically never been on though). Just in the case of boyz this matters more than one might think since a model can attack if they're within 1" of someone who's within 1" of an enemy model. 1 inch is 25,4mm and the old base sizes are 25mm meaning you can attack with 3 rows of models rather than with just 2 rows because of 32mm bases.

 

It's actually 4 rows that can fight, and you can achieve that on 32mm as well, just with less flexibility. With 25s, you can just be front to back to get 4 rows, but 32s require "honeycombing" to get it. In my mind, the bigger advantage 25s have over 32s is that the smaller base makes it easier to deploy the units from Da Jump, or Tellyporta, or Unstoppable Green Tide.

[PiñaColada]

I knew that just straight rows weren't the optimal way of placing the bases but couldn't think of the word for interlacing them (honeycombing is good :P) so I just explained it in the simplest terms. I also really didn't expect the difference to be that big between the different ways of placing the bases haha. I don't really play with hordes of boyz often just because I find hordes to be teious to move and just activate in general but I'll have to keep that in mind.

[Warhead01]

 

Trying to limit mob up to boys (because of the loota bomb?) is just petty.  It's also, very likely a result of the itc terrain rules interaction.  It shouldn't be a GW decisions, if it's too good for tournaments that group should just house rule it. 

 

I can't imagine how the power of the Loota Bomb is in anyway related to ITC terrain rules interactions. As a ranged shooting unit, the LoS-blocking rules ITC uses (which, IMO, are way better than the base terrain rules) only negatively impacts Lootas.

 

And, yes, a change to Mob Up would seek to limit the power of stacking More Dakka!!! and Showin' Off when used on Lootas.

 

 

I was referring to the first level los blocking rule.  Which at first seems like it might hurt lootas but I am looking at it the other way around. The player facing orks should be bringing indirect fire weapons and if they do are likely to shred all the lootas extremely quickly.  If anything I would have already expected the 'meta" to have shifted in that direction if it wasn't already there. People bringing the AM CP battery would have slots for wyverns, why would they not do this. Other armies I can't say what the best method would be but I imagine they do have options. 

 

Wondering if any Ork players are playing vehicle based armies and doing well with them. Not heard anything about that. I was thinking about something that was all vehicles with infantry on the tellyporta pad, after I have cleared objectives, just drop them in. Granted I think that looks like some kind of shooting based list so it may not be very good when compared to a green tide.

[toaae]

 

 

I was referring to the first level los blocking rule.  Which at first seems like it might hurt lootas but I am looking at it the other way around. The player facing orks should be bringing indirect fire weapons and if they do are likely to shred all the lootas extremely quickly.

 

 

Grot shields is the only reason Lootas are used. At their price, they are far too fragile on their own to be worth anything. While hiding out of LoS and then walking (or more likely, Da Jumping) is a valid tactic, I think most often, Ork players are just relying on grot shields to take the brunt of turn 1 and 2 shooting.

 

As for vehicle armies, I think there may be something there, but not as long as the Castellan is in the meta. It can reliably kill 2 vehicles a turn on its own. If the FAQ results in seeing less of those, and anti-horde shooting increases, I think we could see it. I'd think Battlewagons (or bonecrushas), deff dreads, and maybe some of the better buggies.

[PiñaColada]

I personally think first level LoS blocking is a good rule, since so much terrain is super airy on the bottom level and in 8th that's basically useless then. I will say that I'm surprised that not more lists are GSC with 3 wyverns from the AM allies that fire at lootas from out of LoS, the orks "grot shield" said lootas but the GSC player uses "a plan generations in the making" to cancel out "grot shields" and just blasts them to oblivion. At the same time, I think that's going to become a lot more common. The meta always shifts slower than I think it will, so that's probably going to become a common sight this summer and it's a tactic orks will have a tough time countering.

Regarding vehicles, since I play an almost entirely pure speed freeks army at a decently high level I can say that it can work but it also has significant drawbacks. IK are obviously tough but several vehicles are also overcosted by a fair margin (to be considered good or even all the way up to competitive, most of them are playable without hampering yourself though). If you're playing a vehicle heavy ork army you basically need to use an airwing detachment IMO, the wazboms KFF will be in range since the army is fast and you need to have a significant T1 threat from the planes so the rest of the vehicles have a path cleared and some of the focus pulled from them. 

I'd place ork vehicles in 3 categories as of right now:
Good (essentially fine pointswise, small drops are probably still needed on most of them though)
Bonebreaka

Deffkilla wartrike

Megatrakk skrapjet

Kustom boosta-blasta

Smasha guns (super good for their points)

Traktor kannon (really good, can also hide out of LoS T1 to sneak out and fire since they auto-hit)

Both Nauts (perhaps primarily the morka, but both are good)

Deff dreads (deepstrike them and they'll do work)

 

Okay (brimming with potential but overcosted by a fair margin)

All the planes (these are somewhere between okay and good IMO, except the blitza-bomma which is merely okay)

Shokkjump dragsta (great movement & anti-tank but 3 shots at 24" means its terribly exposed even if it does its job, should be 100 points absolute max)

Boomdakka snazzwagon (basically a lesser version of the KBB that costs the same, the defensive buff is nice but its so unthreatening that it wont be used)

Battlewagons (they're fine really it's just too juicy of a target for IK without the damage potential of a bonebreaka)

Deffkoptas (they're good if taken as solo models as deepstrike deniers/slot fillers but the rack of rokkits makes them overcosted)

Kustom mega kannon (great potential but a bit of a glass cannon for the points, 36" range is the truly mediocre part for an artillery unit however)

Trukk (it's decent, too expensive to make trukkboyz work though)

Warbikers (they just need a points drop, them being more expensive than SM bikers is ridiculous)

Nobz on warbikes (also need a points drop, perhaps even more direly than their little brothers)

 

Bad (units that are let down by rules or just crazy overcosted)

Killa kanz (they're okay as slot fillers, however no strats makes them pretty useless compared to other alternatives)

Bubblechukka (if you could roll for stats before choosing a target it might've been alright but skip this one)

Gunwagon (not terrible, just the odd one out. Orks have great artillery and better transports so it's an unneeded lovechild)

Rukkatrukk squigbuggy (the rule are alright it's just overcosted by 50 points)

[Gederas]

I don't see the Stompa in that list PiñaColada. Or is it in it's own category of "Far too Overcosted to gauge"? :lol:

[Warhead01]

I don't see the Stompa in that list PiñaColada. Or is it in it's own category of "Far too Overcosted to gauge"?

You said over costed, I read over powered. lol

[Gederas]

I don't see the Stompa in that list PiñaColada. Or is it in it's own category of "Far too Overcosted to gauge"?

You said over costed, I read over powered. lol

Yeah.... No. It'd be overpowered if it was close to as good as, say, a Warhound.

 

But as-is, the Stompa is 920 points, and imo, overcosted by about 300-400 points. Why does this thing cost as much as TWO Knight Castellans again while being relatively 'meh' all around? :lol: The Kustom Stompa from FW is even worse in this regard, as you can easily make it OVER 1000 points.

 

Yeah, 40 wounds, T8 and 3+ armor is nice, but no Invuln save to speak of (unless a Big Mek with KFF is riding in it [and that's only for shooting], or it's the Warlord of a Stompa Mob Specialist detachment, which raises bigger issues....) means those 40 wounds will go, fast.

[PiñaColada]

I don't see the Stompa in that list PiñaColada. Or is it in it's own category of "Far too Overcosted to gauge"?

Honestly, not even joking, forgot it existed. That thing needs to drop 200-250 points and lose one tier on its damage bracket. It should also just have an option to take a KFF as a 20 point upgrade.

Edited April 24, 2019 by PiñaColada

[Magos Takatus]

 

I don't see the Stompa in that list PiñaColada. Or is it in it's own category of "Far too Overcosted to gauge"?

Honestly, not even joking, forgot it existed. That thing needs to drop 200-250 points and lose one tier on its damage bracket. It should also just have an option to take a KFF as a 20 point upgrade.

 

My Stompa agrees entirely. 

 

This is rather sober reading for someone who's Ork army is predominantly a Dread Mob. I suppose I knew it was never going to be competitive but with the biggest and smallest elements apparently being rubbish I guess it's going to be an uphill struggle if I get back into playing the game around now. :D

[PiñaColada]

I wouldn't sweat making a dread mob too much, the deffs and 'nauts are still good. Killa kanz would be good if GW just lightens the restrictions of grots getting stratagems and kulturs, even as of right now they're at least pretty tanky for their points so they can still be used as slot fillers and models to rush up the board and hold midfield objectives (they're also really cool models so any excuse to use 'em is fine in my book).

The stompa is problematic but it's also a titanic unit so depending on the size of the game you're playing you might not want/be allowed to bring it anyways. 

[FlamingDeth]

Killa kans still have their specific uses too. Even with a dreadmob you're still probably going to be marching some boyz up the table. Kans are fairly cheap and still enough of a threat they can't be ignored, and individual kans are just flimsy enough to be juicy targets. When the enemy inevitably blows them up you can use the loot it strat for your boyz to increase their armor save. Alternatively if they ignore it then I guess you have a small robot with power tools stomping through their line.

[Magos Takatus]

 (they're also really cool models so any excuse to use 'em is fine in my book).

 

That's definitely the starting point for this Ork Force. They alongside the Deff Dreads are what propelled me into this force. At some point I'll have to look into getting a Mega Dread but without the FW  Index I don't know what weapons to equip it with. I love the idea of a two cannon Dakka Dread but that's positively un-orky, though being a Blood Axe army they are already not proppa Orks. :p

 

I just got my Ork Codex today so I'll be able to figure out how to model my Battlewagons. I'm not massively concerned with the most competitive variant, but knowing if I can have guns and Deth Rollas would be helpful!

[Gederas]

 (they're also really cool models so any excuse to use 'em is fine in my book).

 

That's definitely the starting point for this Ork Force. They alongside the Deff Dreads are what propelled me into this force. At some point I'll have to look into getting a Mega Dread but without the FW  Index I don't know what weapons to equip it with. I love the idea of a two cannon Dakka Dread but that's positively un-orky, though being a Blood Axe army they are already not proppa Orks.

 

I just got my Ork Codex today so I'll be able to figure out how to model my Battlewagons. I'm not massively concerned with the most competitive variant, but knowing if I can have guns and Deth Rollas would be helpful!

Are you asking about the MEGA Dread or the MEKA Dread? Because those are actually two different things. And the Mega-Dread doesn't have 8th Edition rules (for some reason)

 

Weapons-wise, the Meka Dread (It's a Big Mek in a Mega Dread) can take: Two Rippa Klaws (stock), Big Zzappa, Shunta, Rattler Kannon, Killcannon, and MUST take either the Mega Charga or Kustom Force Field.

 

As to the last part: Yes, you can have the guns and Deth Rollas on the same Battlewagon

[Magos Takatus]

Thanks for your help, I was referring to the Mega Dread. I had in my head the rules from an earlier edition that you needed at least one Mega Dread before you could field a Meka Dread. That almost certainly doesn't apply now in 8th edition. Interesting info about the Meka Dread, perhaps I should look into that instead, though at this rate My Big Meks are getting Primaris Lieutenant syndrome, they will probably start outnumbering the Boyz in my army! Back in 7th ed the idea of twin Killcannon was appealing to me since the templates would mean it could put some decent fire down range but that would be pretty bad in 8th edition, so perhaps some big rippy claws would be more fun?

 

I've just fired off an Email to Forge World about the Mega Dread for some clarification, it would be nice to get a reply directly from them since it's a strange omission. One again, cheers for the help! :)

[Magos Takatus]

I got a reply back from the email I sent.

 

"Thanks for the email. This has been address in the Warhammer community FAQ's Index Xenos.

The mekka dread and mega dread are the same vehicle with a different selection of special rule and weapon load out.

Use the mekka dread data sheet and the kill kannon as stated in the errata for 40points.

Kind regrds"

 

This is a bit sad since it seems you can only swap one of the claws for a Kill Kannon. No dual-wielding revolver cannons for me. I guess I'd have to build it as Gork Intended. :p

 

I'm going to link the index Errata for anyone that hasn't seen it, though I expect most are more familiar with it than I am. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/imperial_armour_index_xenos-2.pdf

 

I'm glad to see the Errata still has the Rokkit-Bomm option, the idea of an Ork walker with a Katyusha battery slapped on top seems fun to me.

 

I'll just bite the bullet and get the Index and decide what kind of insane loadout I want for this contraption.