135 replies to this topic

[Progenitor]

https://www.warhamme...rules-feedback/

 

Beta time has concluded. Feedback has been received and there are mentions of what the rules team are looking into, without any specifics. 

 

Looks like no new beta, straight to full Codex. 

[Beams]

I really wish they would have at least given a few weeks to see what the replacements were for AoF before saying "Nope, were fixing it" and going straight to print.

[BaronBanana]

Is it bad I don't trust them to do it right

[CaptainMarsh]

It is nice that they acknowledge it and say they wanna make AoF more reliable and have an impact at key moments. A friendly reading is not only more reliable, but more impactful overall.

[Slasher956]

I read it as the open beta is closed ...they now have an idea of what we the gamers want /like/expect and will now go back to a closed house rewrites / updated beta the same as all other 8th edition codexs

They’ve had feedback on the acts and people’s suggestions on how to fix them... and stuff like the exorcist and celestians...I’d guess that they are the 3 biggest negative units they received substantive feedback on ..ie not this unit sucks!

When we didn’t get any updates in feb I expected it to go March close...April - may re write in house... July send to printers for a sept Oct release

[Doof]

I really wish they would have at least given a few weeks to see what the replacements were for AoF before saying "Nope, were fixing it" and going straight to print.

 

I think it is unrealistic for us to think there would be multiple feedback periods / multiple versions of beta rules for us to critique and test. I think they now have a good feeling for exactly what we as SoB players expect out of the army. Anything else beyond that i think is getting into wish-listing.

[Jomgor]

I'm pretty salty from that post.

 

"According to your feedback, the reliance on luck for the Acts of Faith to kick in has led to some games where these rules didn’t quite have the impact that players felt they should." huh interesting way of saying you have to dig through dozens of forum pages to find singular examples of AoF not completely failing and at least 40% of the time acting as an active detriment to your gameplay. That's an interesting way of saying every human being I have had an actual discussion with prefers stolen Soul Burst, even though its creatively bankrupt and mechanically about as exciting as growing corn. The amount of apparent denial over how unpleasant AoF currently are makes me think they care way too much about the original ideas they had to do the complete rework that is needed. the rules, their activations, their interactions and for the love of the Emperor: Vessel's. how about you mention how Vessels just breaks the entire system outright before you even consider the actual rules power or reliability.

 

the excorcist bit seems to miss the actual problem with the Excorcist by a solid 50% margin. now correct me if im wrong, but my own testing and what others have said show clearly to me the problem isnt that its random: its that its our only response to things +24" short of martyring some seraphim AND it's random as heck AND it's the only thing we have even remotely approaching a MBT. I think the random is really fun, I just need a gun that will actually kill something every round to compensate for those times my only other 48" response decides its going to play with bugs in the dirt this round.

 

"Even though they can be equipped with a selection of powerful wargear" I actually laughed out loud. an elite bodyguard unit in an ocean of specialized elite choices, part of one of the wealthiest organization in the Imperium, an organization that spares no expense protecting the faith. These mighty elite units have the powerful wargear options of: the exact same things as literally any basic BSS squad. Sorry fam but "a thematic new ability or two" isn't going to change the fact its a BSS choking out an elite slot for a higher points cost. They need an entire stat rework, access to the whole wargear inventory or completely unique equipment AND some rules to make that equipment pop.

 

basically what I read is that

A. we can take this at face value and they are not understanding the issues that exist

B. this is just some sparse words thrown together by a community team with no actual updates or insight into the development and we are still just as much in the dark as when the beta started.

 

my money is on the latter, considering how much fairly concise feedback the people here alone seem to have sent in.

either way my hope for a good release has bottomed out. on the bright side, can only go up from here. and the plastic still looks cool.

[Atrus]

Hmm, I (personally) feel the point with the AoF was missed. Sounded more like a focus on powers happening easier. I have no problem with the difficulty of them. I.probably have a 75-80% success rate with them. They've just been not worth the time it takes to roll the dice due to being to weak.
Meh, shall see what happens.

Mention of exorcist has me sweating. I'm sure I don't need to go into my current love for how the exorcist is. My fear is that any changes will cause my babies to do less damage and perform less than they are- which going by what other people experience is with them, is well above the average.

Regarding Celestians, well they couldn't possibly be any worse

Good to FINALLY hear something. Just wish we didn't have to wait a few weeks. For more.
Am disappointed there isn't going to be another beta release. Was really hoping for a round two.

[Lord Marshal]

Seems to me like the 'open beta' was more like a low-budget marketing campaign than a truly substantial test.

 

Or I'm just too cynical.

[ValourousHeart]

Either I'm an eternal optimist, or I read a completely different community page as the rest of you.

 

What I read was

 

"Thanks for all the great feedback!  We received more great ideas than we know what to do with.  Most of you expressed some concerns over Faith, Exorcists and Celestians.  We are posting this to let you know we heard you, we are taking all of your ideas and reworking how these things work."

 

Well back to painting my other armies and socking away some cash for the new sister release.

[krakjen]

Seems to me like the 'open beta' was more like a low-budget marketing campaign than a truly substantial test.

 

Or I'm just too cynical.

Well, it sure sold plenty of CA2019.

[Beaky Brigade]

It's nice to see the continued updates from GW on this. I don't really have a dog in the fight as I won't have a sisters army until they are released, and am more into the lore and modelling side of things. It's only natural that a summary of the hundreds of emails they must have received about the beta codex can only be distilled into a few summary points.

 

Unfortunately the average response may not match our own opinions! I have faith they will deliver a playable codex. My main hope is they'll commission a new piece of artwork for the cover and not re-use that one from the beta codex and a several previous minidexes.

 

I love this, though I suppose you could criticise it for not having the sisters front and centre.

 

 

Rules are as ephemeral as the tides of the warp, models are for eternity.

[Beams]

They don't fill me with confidence:

AoF are in a bad place right now. I've played tons of games and can count the number of important AoF I've gotten off on one hand.
The problems are that the limited number of FP mean you want to hoard them until you need them, but the once per turn and 4+/5+ needed to get the good ones off means that it's likely they won't work when you need them too, and the power that you get from them isn't good enough to warrant all of that.

Celestians need, like, melee weapons instead of special abilities. I mean, 3 attacks hitting at WS 3+ is okay, but they are 11 pts and an Ork boy is 7 and can get more attacks at WS 2 with 6s throwing more attacks, so, they really need something.

Exorcists aren't great right now. I'm not sure what they will do, and I'm a little worried about it, since they haven't done great with anything else...

And they still need to address the Penitent Engine, since it still can't make it into close combat.

[Montford]

Atrus:

 

If all they do to the Exocist is adjust the ROF to 2D3 I'll be perfectly happy: the stats on the missiles themselves are just fine. 

 

Beams:

 

Celestians only have 2 attacks. IMHO Bloody Rose is a trap  

 

Beaky Brigade:

 

I'd love new artwork too. I hope, though, that the Sisters never, ever become part of the Inquisition again 

 

ValourousHeart:

 

I'm with you on the optimism bench. Today's GW is nothing like the old GW.

 

 

Jomgor:

 

I think that the Acts of Faith are not as individually powerful, overall, as they were in the Index, but they are not horrible, at least in my gameplay. I would like to see a few more, and also an Act or two which can be applied to Vehicles, as well as (and I recommended this in my feedback) a lifting of the limitation of using any one Act only once per battle round. But really from how my games have gone post beta I cannot complain. If they come up with an AoF system between the relative power of the Index and Beta then that should be pretty decent. How they will have it function I could not begin to guess.

Edited by Montford, 05 March 2019 - 02:37 AM.

[BaronBanana]

I'm worried that the emphasis on "Watch out heretics" that it'll still be D6, except against chaos, it'll be like D6+2.  Obliterators got 6+D3, why not exorcists?  

 

I just don't like anything they said in that article, it was far too vague.  Personal experience and reading other people's experiences, nothing about the betadex really hit it's mark.  Repentia and Arcos are kind of there but only just really because of the Bloody Rose (I forgot the name of it).

[CaptainMarsh]

Obliterars are 6 shots. It is the Strength, AP, and Damage that are variable.

[BaronBanana]

You right.  Still, I don't feel comfortable with how they specifically just said heretics

[Doof]

The salt here is palpable, i find it kind of funny so many people decide to read one post as negatively as possible. They acknowledged acts of faith aren't very good and admitted to be completely rewriting them "from the ground up".... "But they're not re-writing them hard enough!!!"

 

What I read is:

 

Act of faith: Complete re-work because the system under-performed and was underwhelming

 

Celestians: Admit that they have no point being just overpriced bodyguards with chain-swords, also reworking them.

 

Exorcists: Way too swingy, will re-think making them more dependable.

 

These where 3 of my top gripes, all addressed in one post.

 

We must have Faith in the Emperor!

[Beams]

The salt here is palpable, i find it kind of funny so many people decide to read one post as negatively as possible. They acknowledged acts of faith aren't very good and admitted to be completely rewriting them "from the ground up".... "But they're not re-writing them hard enough!!!"

What I read is:

Act of faith: Complete re-work because the system under-performed and was underwhelming

Celestians: Admit that they have no point being just overpriced bodyguards with chain-swords, also reworking them.

Exorcists: Way too swingy, will re-think making them more dependable.

These where 3 of my top gripes, all addressed in one post.

We must have Faith in the Emperor!

The salt, as far as I can tell, is because GW has a terrible track record with Sisters, and the article had 0 real information in it.


History:
6th Edition - A faulty PDF that had so many typos we couldn't actually take wargear properly
7th Edition - The Imperial Agents Codex, which had more named Male Characters than female, had the worst formation in the game (A CAD where you lose objective secured for a reroll ones for the 6++ once a game)
Shadow War Armeggedon's - Released only after uproar, after every single other army.
8th Index - All Sister Superior Models invalidated since wargear in book matches no models released, GW has to errata it to work, Command Squad nixed, condemnor worthless.
8th Beta - AoF nerfed, Large selection of strategems/traits/tactics to provide more FP but not worth the Opportunity cost/CP cost.
Kill Team - Still not playable

Edited by Beams, 05 March 2019 - 11:22 AM.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Pretty much.

 

Everything in that Warhammer Community post is good to hear (PR speak aside), it's just that this feels like they're drawing a line here and planning on leaving us in the dark again until the Codex hits the shelves. After a number of things in the beta Codex badly missed the mark it's only natural to be concerned that whatever they come up with to replace/improve them still won't hit the mark, especially when they have no interest in coming clean with us and actually giving us insight into what they were looking to achieve with the beta Codex's design decisions.

Edited by Commander Dawnstar, 05 March 2019 - 03:10 PM.

[Slasher956]

Both 6th & 7th where after thoughts, and it showed.  Same goes with Shadow War.  Basically all in all a stop gap due to oversight, which when you factor in the design process is understandable (not that I agree with it... I can just see why it happens)

 

the 8th Index Sister Superior did NOT invalidate 100% of the models... only 2 of the oldest (no longer made) models... again an over sight as the rules writters didnt do their research properly.  The command squad is a change in philosopy taken across all factions.

[Beams]

Both 6th & 7th where after thoughts, and it showed. Same goes with Shadow War. Basically all in all a stop gap due to oversight, which when you factor in the design process is understandable (not that I agree with it... I can just see why it happens)

the 8th Index Sister Superior did NOT invalidate 100% of the models... only 2 of the oldest (no longer made) models... again an over sight as the rules writters didnt do their research properly. The command squad is a change in philosopy taken across all factions.

Your right -- the Sister Superior with Plasma pistol and chainsword was legal. I forgot about her since I used her as a Cannoness since her armor was more ornate.

My other three sister superiors were invalidated, though:
One had a powermauls and Bolter, with underslung grenade launcher.
One had a powerswords, Bolter and bolt pistol
One had a Bolter, bolt pistol and a sheathed sword.

But since you were not allowed to take a melee weapon AND a Bolter, it made those three illegal.

[Slasher956]

Powermaul + ornate bolter... (the underslung section STILL has no rules so according to you is still invalidated!)

 

 

So yes those two.. the oldest two sister superior modes where unfieldable and GW quickly corrected that (quickly in game company terms anyway.....)

 

The 3rd sister superior, who is still sold, can be taken as....Bolter, bolt pistol & a machete (at this scale theres not a lot of size difference if you want it to be seen ) 

 

edit - for what its worth ... yeah I was pretty hacked off with the two bolgun & power weapon models being unusable without counts as...

 

For the Record - I have 4 sisters with chainsword & plasma pistol, 2 canoness, and all 3 of the sister superiors with boltgun......  

Edited by Slasher956, 05 March 2019 - 12:59 PM.

[Beams]

Powermaul + ornate bolter... (the underslung section STILL has no rules so according to you is still invalidated!)


So yes those two.. the oldest two sister superior modes where unfieldable and GW quickly corrected that (quickly in game company terms anyway.....)

The 3rd sister superior, who is still sold, can be taken as....Bolter, bolt pistol & a machete (at this scale theres not a lot of size difference if you want it to be seen )

edit - for what its worth ... yeah I was pretty hacked off with the two bolgun & power weapon models being unusable without counts as...

For the Record - I have 4 sisters with chainsword & plasma pistol, 2 canoness, and all 3 of the sister superiors with boltgun......

I mean, I was just thinking invalidated because she couldn't take powermaul and Bolter... But I wouldn't object to rules for that haha

The one with the "machete" I have always run as with a powersword, but it could be run as without it, I guess.

I mean, index sisters felt the best to me in general, I was just pointing out why it felt to me like they were a bit of an oversight.

Edit: also still salty that Veridian did not get 8th edition rules. She's a cool model, with a subpar loadout, and would finally give us more female named characters than male named characters. Which would be nice (Celestine, Pious Vorne vs Taddeus and Jacobus)

Edited by Beams, 05 March 2019 - 01:39 PM.

[Servant of Dante]

It is a time honored tradition for Sisters players to never believe GW will do anything right for the faction

I’m glad to see they at least acknowledged the issues they did. I don’t think they said enough to really draw any conclusion, I mean they aren’t going to outright call AoFs a failure, this is a PR post. Im glad thy at least did a beta and we didn’t just get a Codex with the rules from the beta. Should be interesting to see what happens.

Edited by Servant of Dante, 05 March 2019 - 03:00 PM.