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Chaos Space Marines - Range Refresh


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#1751
DeadFingers

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The more I think about it, the more I come to the same conclusion. These new CSM releases are not for existing players

Speak for yourself, this is the release I've been waiting for since the Eye of Terror era. Beautiful, properly scaled plastic models all made to fit the same aesthetic. Yeah sure the lack of certain options sucks, as it always does, but whatever, I'm in it for the models.


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#1752
MegaVolt87

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The more I think about it, the more I come to the same conclusion. These new CSM releases are not for existing players

Speak for yourself, this is the release I've been waiting for since the Eye of Terror era. Beautiful, properly scaled plastic models all made to fit the same aesthetic. Yeah sure the lack of certain options sucks, as it always does, but whatever, I'm in it for the models.

 

 

This is fine as well, I was just saying the issue is more complex than it appears at the surface level. If most people can't see deeper, then it has been an effective manipulation on people. Just as planned basicly. Here is the rest you should have quoted, otherwise others would take what I say out  of context because you did not quote me in full for some reason.

 

 

The more I think about it, the more I come to the same conclusion. These new CSM releases are not for existing players, they are for people just entering the hobby or CSM in general newcomers. A new player isn't going to understand the value of rotor cannons, basic units (Chain axe + combi bolter) for min/max +pts efficiency. The kits are big/chunky, scaled well, all plastic. I think GW knows existing players will not be buying units they either already own or will just get things alternatively/ convert. I mean, the havocs are AUD$90 and the termi's AUD$98 for example. I want x10 rotors, so what I am going to spend AUD$900 for that? No way. I got my 10 rotors from FW and a Spartan for AUD$340 instead. A new player won't care about getting 10+ rotor cannons or x5 combi plas/ x5 chain axes etc. As a hobbyist/gamer I hate it, as someone with a finance background I love it its a fantastic way to do it and I would have suggested the same thing in a meeting. 


Edited by MegaVolt87, 01 April 2019 - 03:06 AM.

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#1753
Subtle Discord

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Don't take it personally, I'm sure DeadFingers wasn't trying to be abrasive, and I get where you're coming from, but the Chaos faction is very popular and I'm certain there are many Long War Veterans (like myself) who are looking forward to this release. I'm already getting ready to take my wallet out back to shoot it, so I can put it out of its misery; it's just better that way.

 

It was many moons ago but I can say when I started out it was actually frustrating to have certain restrictions crop up because of limited bits and with a limited bits box and resources to turn to, it was a real pain. It doesn't take long for a new player to make a few lists and be left wondering why they didn't add an even number of some options in a kit when it would better serve the unit if they did, for example. But, there's a raft of reasons and it is what it is. Thank goodness there are options today that make it much easier to fill gaps and it's not as much of an issue, but anytime GW would like to change this little habit, that would be fine too.


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#1754
MegaVolt87

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Yeah I get what you are saying Subtle Discord, it just gets to me a bit seeing most people lay the blame directly at people like R&D, devs, CEO's etc as solely responsible for perceived "mistakes/ dumb decisions". I can't talk specifics, but let me just say the finance departments and their shield brothers in legal have a big say on how a lot of things shake out. A lot of public company reps/ board of directors etc are mere mouthpieces who make few if any decisions independently by themselves- they make them based on what they are given. I'll just let that sink in just how much influence certain departments/ individuals have in reality. I would have been against the autocannon in the CSM multi-part box to make the havocs even more of an attractive purchase, if I was in GW finance dept, because that's my job to increase potential revenue. 

 

Anyway, I would buy the new havocs, though the scale would not fit with the old stuff and stand out too much. May even go back and sculpt the claws on the old mini's I got who knows. 


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#1755
Minsc

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Strange discussion, is there even a right and/or wrong here?

Some would want the new miniatures, some won't.

Obviously it depends on what you already own and how much you like the new/dislike the old.

 

I've played CSM for 15 years and I own about 12.000 pts of CSM. 
Most of this is split into a World Eaters army, a Thousand Sons army, and a bunch of model's (mostly old metal minis and regular CSM's) that I no longer use due to various reasons.

 

I couldn't personally care less about most of the new stuff - not counting new units.

- New Chaos Terminators? Pass, my TS can't use them and my WE already have 20 of the plastic ones. I don't like these enough to even consider replacing them.

- New Chaos Space Marines? Pass, my TS can't use them and my WE don't really care about them. I already have ~50 who's just lying in a box somewhere.

- New Chaos Havocs? Pass, my TS can't use them and my WE don't really care about Havoc's. If they did, the ones I already have would make do just fine.

- New Obliterators? I'm actually moderately interested in these, and got two due to Shadowspear. Despite this however, my TS can't use them, and my WE don't really care about Obliterators. (I'm beginning to see a pattern here...)

- New Dark Apostle? Pass, my TS can't use him and my WE aren't interested since I don't like the new mini at all; I'd need both a weaponswap and a headswap. My current WE-Apostle (using the old DV-champion with 3 eyes, who's name I forgot) suits perfectly. 

With that said, I can easily see why many long-term CSM-players would be all over most of the new stuff, and if I was starting a new CSM-army myself (some of the new Renegade traits look really fun - looking at you Flawless Host and The Scourged), I would be all over this release myself.

As it currently stands however, I got a Shadow-spear box, and I might get a Lord Discordant to add to my World Eaters. That's all I'm going to add.
Not because I don't like the new stuff, but because I don't feel any urge or need to buy it. 

 


Edited by Minsc, 01 April 2019 - 04:05 AM.

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#1756
Panzer

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The more I think about it, the more I come to the same conclusion. These new CSM releases are not for existing players, they are for people just entering the hobby or CSM in general newcomers. A new player isn't going to understand the value of rotor cannons, basic units (Chain axe + combi bolter) for min/max +pts efficiency. The kits are big/chunky, scaled well, all plastic. I think GW knows existing players will not be buying units they either already own or will just get things alternatively/ convert. I mean, the havocs are AUD$90 and the termi's AUD$98 for example. I want x10 rotors, so what I am going to spend AUD$900 for that? No way. I got my 10 rotors from FW and a Spartan for AUD$340 instead. A new player won't care about getting 10+ rotor cannons or x5 combi plas/ x5 chain axes etc. As a hobbyist/gamer I hate it, as someone with a finance background I love it its a fantastic way to do it and I would have suggested the same thing in a meeting. 

 

I have to disagree. It isn't even necessarily about min-maxing. That argument only got created since we know the rules for the chaincannon. There are plenty who just like that sort of weapon (like me) who want to build a full unit with it regardless of whether it's good or not. So imagine a new player getting his Codex and the box all happy that he can build a unit with those awesome gatling cannons just to learn that without some great effort he'd have to buy the box another 3 times to get all the weapon bitz needed. Effort that you can trust a veteran to put in for the unit he wants but not someone who is new to the hobby and probably went in expecting to be able to build the unit he is allowed to play from the box as is instead of roaming the internet for bitz, hacking other bitz up and/or building the same expensive box multiple times.

True, new players care little about min-maxing, but new players do care about building a cool unit out of the box they are allowed to play rules-wise. Rules change and with the next CA the Chaincannon could end up being the worst option which would make the box great for min-maxing players but still just as horrible for new players who don't know about such things and just want to build a cool unit full with gatlings.

 

Same goes for the Terminator box but like ten times worse.


Edited by sfPanzer, 01 April 2019 - 05:46 AM.

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#1757
shandwen

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I was ecstatic about this release with the first pictures, but the reality of the kits has left me... well, apathetic. I bought a box of the new marines and realized that I couldn't equip the sergeants as I would want (no combis and no one handed bolters). The terminators seem even worse, as the "basic" build can only be used for a single model (that was a real jerk move there). The havoks put me off as they are so different from loyalists, making a drastic change from how renegades would probably function... altogether I'm left at a point where my painting project of choas will probably end up on Ebay as I don't like the course he has taken (especially the price jumps).

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#1758
kombatwombat

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So imagine a new player getting his Codex and the box all happy that he can build a unit with those awesome gatling cannons just to learn that without some great effort he'd have to buy the box another 3 times to get all the weapon bitz needed.

...isn’t that GW’s exact reasoning for :cuss ing over hobbyists with their new ‘no model, no rules’ policy?

I mean, I’d be more sympathetic towards GW’s policies if they had a modicum of integrity or transparency rather than being a pack of :cuss bags at every turn.

Edited by Grotsmasha, 01 April 2019 - 09:48 AM.

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#1759
Trevak Dal

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Not goinna lie, I wasn’t annoyed that they only put one of each ccw and minimal numbers of combi weapons... I’m annoyed that they put a couple of ccws in the same hand as the heavy weapons. You literally have to do conversion work or 3rd party stuff to have a chain axe and heavy weapon.

But the reaper kinda sucks and the heavy flamer hasn't gotten an extra inch so it's kinda not great either, and in the game where you have infinite use Combi weapons...why not have every body with plasma guns (and also bolters).

Hey so how exactly is a guy to proceed if he doesn't use new stuff and doesn't want to hock over more money for books (new csm codex, or vigilus 2)? Like I'm okay just running my Zerkers and Daemon engines. About the only thing I'd consider would be a couple of smash Lords with jump packs and thunder hammers in a raptor thing (which would remove elements from my World Eaters which are purposefully Zerkers, rhinos and daemon engines and helbrutes)

Edited by Trevak Dal, 01 April 2019 - 06:54 AM.

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#1760
MegaVolt87

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@Trevak Dal, I dunno man smash lords and raptors from Brazen Beasts/ Crimson Slaughter with World Eaters fully painted seems like a pretty visually amazing army to me. Would love to see it. woot.gif


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#1761
Trevak Dal

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Yeah, but with how my guys are built and designed, the chaos army I always wanted to complement my main Tau army (and got lost along the way) was pretty much a combination of Blog For the Bloodgod's World Eaters, Fritz's Berserkers of Skalathrax and Wayde Pryce's world eaters.

The meta where I play is about 1500 points typically.

Now I've always wanted a jump pack army-its what had me flirting with doing a blood angel army even though vampires really creep me out. Also thought about 30k world eaters with all assault Marines (and that ROW that let's that happen).

I really love the raptor kit (really hate painting it) and I got a lot, but rule of 3 (which is on where I play) means I can't take them in the manner I'd want to.

It's like GW went to the effort to make it so you can build whatever army you want, and then slapped you down when they (perhaps rightfully) feared people bringing stuff they hadn't considered.

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#1762
OttoVonAwesome

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I think it's kinda lame they cheaped out on a sprue with more options for terminators but I also have every thing I need in the kit in for my standard heresy terminator squad build so Im actually ok with it. Who is gonna seriously take like all chainaxes combi plasma anyway. Seems like your doing terminators wrong if you min max them to me cuase teleport strike makes them a kind of swing unit something that responds to midgame situations. As for havocs well hell I'm getting 4 boxes eventually either way did same with devastators. Army I know Im gonna wanna play Im gonna want to hotswap heavy weapons. Only real bummer there Is I won't have 4 chainguns right away.



#1763
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The more I think about it, the more I come to the same conclusion. These new CSM releases are not for existing players, they are for people just entering the hobby or CSM in general newcomers. A new player isn't going to understand the value of rotor cannons, basic units (Chain axe + combi bolter) for min/max +pts efficiency. The kits are big/chunky, scaled well, all plastic. I think GW knows existing players will not be buying units they either already own or will just get things alternatively/ convert. I mean, the havocs are AUD$90 and the termi's AUD$98 for example. I want x10 rotors, so what I am going to spend AUD$900 for that? No way. I got my 10 rotors from FW and a Spartan for AUD$340 instead. A new player won't care about getting 10+ rotor cannons or x5 combi plas/ x5 chain axes etc. As a hobbyist/gamer I hate it, as someone with a finance background I love it its a fantastic way to do it and I would have suggested the same thing in a meeting.


So whats the release for existing players then???


Aaand as an existing Chaos player (first edition vet) I would buy a lot of this stuff if it wasnt overpriced, wouldnt use the terminator powersword though, looks like some silly soul calibur fanboy had input into that somewhere.

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#1764
Leif Bearclaw

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So imagine a new player getting his Codex and the box all happy that he can build a unit with those awesome gatling cannons just to learn that without some great effort he'd have to buy the box another 3 times to get all the weapon bitz needed.


...isn’t that GW’s exact reasoning for :cussing over hobbyists with their new ‘no model, no rules’ policy?

I mean, I’d be more sympathetic towards GW’s policies if they had a modicum of integrity or transparency rather than being a pack of :cussbags at every turn.

 

I thought that policy came out of the IP mess the censored.gifs at Chapterhouse inflicted on us?


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#1765
DuskRaider

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#1766
Joe

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Again, the lack of certain options on the sprues are unlikely to be a business decision. Continuing to stir that pot just threatens to derail the thread.


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#1767
M@l!ce

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Again, the lack of certain options on the sprues are unlikely to be a business decision. Continuing to stir that pot just threatens to derail the thread.


Threatens?

Anyways, shame the Sorcerer whose backpack we’ve seen in a rumour engine is nowhere to be seen. So I’m guessing the speculation over him being a Blackstone Fortress add on is on point.

#1768
Slasher956

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Or its not even a 40k model ... but rather a AoS release.....ohmy.png ohmy.png


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I'm confussed... what side of the fence am I on???

 

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#1769
DeadFingers

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Threatens?

Anyways, shame the Sorcerer whose backpack we’ve seen in a rumour engine is nowhere to be seen. So I’m guessing the speculation over him being a Blackstone Fortress add on is on point.

Could also be a Kill Team leader in a box with the new CSM models.


Edited by DeadFingers, 01 April 2019 - 10:17 AM.

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#1770
BolterZorro

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TBH, the best deal of this new chaos release is Shadowspear. Even if I am a vet of chaos (25y+ chaos metal minis here), I completely refreshed my chaos with several shadowspear packs: no need of heavy weapon, the gatlin is already on the obliterators (will kitbash &/or mould it). With 3 packs, the core of the army is here and it is what GW is aiming for the (new) chaos, to differentiate it from TS and DG. I'll just add abbadon, a mauler and 2 Lord of discordant, and I'm done. No need of termi, they smell too  much as oldies (as in the old way to play chaos). Same for havoc. If I expand, I'd prefer go to flying guys which look amazing with the new HQ. Probably in the future, I'll buy the havox & termi but not any time soon. I prefer starting a new army like the TS and their termi.


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#1771
Xenith

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The more I think about it, the more I come to the same conclusion. These new CSM releases are not for existing players

 

I'm 99.9% sure that it wasn't the people that don't collect chaos that have been screaming for new models for a decade.

 

I mean, why would I care that strongly about a faction I don't collect?

 

That they made havocs so different is precisely to appeal to existing chaos players. Everyone already has a dozen heavy weapon dudes, or 5x plasma havoc squads.

 

In a stroke, they've all had to be reassigned, much like the primaris range did to marines. 

 

As you say, why would a new player care about a chain cannon? If it was for new players, it wouldn't be on the sprue. The people that are desperate for the chain cannon most are chaos veterans. 


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#1772
Marshal Rohr

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I know it’s not as convenient as just having two chain guns on the sprue, but there’s a tutorial floating around for using three brass rods and plasticard to make a tri-barrel version. I’ll see if I can find it. I’m definitely gonna do one or two that way.
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#1773
Danny Cyanide

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I'm probably going to buy 2 boxes of Havocs, and cast my own Reaper chaincannon bits from those boxes, then glue the fronts to the heavy Bolters!
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#1774
RedFox

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To me the whole "only one chaincannon problem" is the perfect excuse to just add more Heresy bits (rotor cannons) into my armies.
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#1775
Toomanyprojects

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Yeah, going to mix and match my guys with forge world/conversions/actual bitz because otherwise it will look just a little bit too uniform for my liking


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