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The Primarchs: Angron


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#51
SkimaskMohawk

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Speaking of pert, he gets a lot of flak for decimating his legion as they weren't the best; they didn't meet his expectations. And others took issue

But angron demands decimation after every "failed" campaign, where they don't kill an entire planet in a day...and that's not commented on. Yea, he has the nails screwing with him and hes just being spiteful in general to his legion, but that sort of retcon really undermines how Perturabo was shunned for his brutal, win-at-all-costs mentality.
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#52
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This book is one of the worst in the series - it's just boring. Even Lorgar and Ferrus were better. WE in this book are just a bunch of idiots that let their demented primarch decimate them at the whim and yet they still want butcher's nails because being like their idiot father is "the only way". Entire plot with butcher's nails was laughable and mind numbingly stupid. Also, lost opportunity to show some interaction between Angron and the Emperor and convincingly explain WHY Emperor just didn't put him down. Nuceria flashabacks in quantity we got were relly unnecessary - ok, I understand that Angron was a "normal" primarch, that highriders are cruel bastards and that Nails destroyed Angron who could be something else. Problem is we got that before maaaaany times, both in short stories, Betrayer etc. Totally not needed book.


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#53
Lord_Caerolion

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I mean, Perturabo is the one who singlehandedly saved a combined Space Wolf/Raven Guard invasion, and got credited only as the "unnamed companion" of Russ and Corax. Perturabo definitely appears to have been ignored at least partly, when compared to how the other Primarchs were treated.

Fair enough

 

The question you have to ask is

 

Is that really how it happened or is that how Perturabo THINKS how it happened ?

 

This is a man who wasted years of his life in a meanless vendetta based on Dorn saying something that he did'nt like.

 

 

That's... literally how it happened, there's no room for nuance. Russ/Corax were stuck unable to penetrate the defenses of a world, Perturabo finds a solution, allowing the campaign to reach victory, and in the records Perturabo is listed only as an "unnamed companion" or something. It's not Perturabo getting snitty because his statue wasn't big enough, or something. He outright wasn't named with regards to a campaign in which he was instrumental.


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#54
godking

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Pertuabos mindset has always been a curious mix, desperate to receive recognition and yet more eager to spit on any form of recognition actually recieved.

Its a nature and nurture issue here though. He had a very damming analytical mindset which was only reinforced by the company he was forced to keep. Thing is though, he was also naturally a bit of a cold child. The vibe i get from Perty is is he accepted the bad jobs because he kinda wanted to. To reinforce his twisted views of the way he saw things.

Honestly, if pertuabo could just of made a friend, a REAL friend (one he couldn't kill so easily) he could of been a vrry different guy.

Correct Perturabo is a clear example of confirmation bias and self delusion.

 

He decries people using him and he is jealous of the praise heaped on other Primarchs while at the same time activelly rebuffing any effort by someone else to get close to him while blaming "them" for not understanding him.



#55
godking

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I mean, Perturabo is the one who singlehandedly saved a combined Space Wolf/Raven Guard invasion, and got credited only as the "unnamed companion" of Russ and Corax. Perturabo definitely appears to have been ignored at least partly, when compared to how the other Primarchs were treated.

Fair enough

 

The question you have to ask is

 

Is that really how it happened or is that how Perturabo THINKS how it happened ?

 

This is a man who wasted years of his life in a meanless vendetta based on Dorn saying something that he did'nt like.

 

 

That's... literally how it happened, there's no room for nuance. Russ/Corax were stuck unable to penetrate the defenses of a world, Perturabo finds a solution, allowing the campaign to reach victory, and in the records Perturabo is listed only as an "unnamed companion" or something. It's not Perturabo getting snitty because his statue wasn't big enough, or something. He outright wasn't named with regards to a campaign in which he was instrumental.

 

Was he not named out of spite or because he made himself unavailable to the historians and would rather brood on the injustice done to him instead of attempting to set the record straight ?



#56
Kelborn

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How unfortunate that we don't have a Perturabo novel thread in which we could discussed this further...oh wait! ;)

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#57
DarkChaplain

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I guess this has really developed into a Perturabo thread by now, but I just finished Angron: Slave of Nuceria, and I'm torn on it to say the least.

 

On the positive side, the action is well done. I loved the Angron flashbacks. Mago was a good character to represent the old Legion's character. The use of the communion was great, and enabled a lot of interesting stuff. Gahlan Surlak being in touch with Fabius before was utterly fitting. The experiments with the Nails were good to see, as was the dangling of the possibility of the same tech that made them possible potentially being a key piece in removing Angron's model, had the Emperor gotten a hold of it - not so likely, but I liked to see that sliver of hope in there.

 

On the other end, I disliked the abrupt ending. Yes, this leads into the Night of the Wolf, but we haven't read much on that in Betrayer, and I would have liked to at least have another section of the top-down narrative we've seen throughout, summarizing the events to come. Instead, the book had an epilogue about Khârn and the Legion losing it, by skipping ahead. It even mentions Gorechild, while the novel up to that point didn't bring them up as existing yet - it seemed weird to me to call out Gorechild as the last thing Angron left to his sons, when the novel itself didn't build towards that at all.

 

Taking another look, I think I'd have prefered the Night of the Wolf to be a bit more of a midway-focus in the novel.

Switch a few things around, having the Russ vs Angron fight happen midway, with Russ and the Wolves retreating after doing their thing, but the communion of the librarius intervening at that point to calm their Primarch, forcing him into the coma plotline. At the same time, you could have the prototype nails be malfunctioning after Ghenna, while Surlak works out the finished version after the Night of the Wolf, during Angron's coma.

Then have Mago and co take their step, especially since they've just seen the raving madness and effects of the Nails malfunctioning on Ghenna, but succeed in at least taking Angron hostage during his coma, to take him to Terra while - in the non-Nail-faction's absence - Surlak and Khârn upgrade the entire rest of the Legion with the nails. This could lead into the Emperor's examination of Angron we've seen via Arkhan Land in Master of Mankind, confirm that there is no cure or fixing Angron, while on the other hand keeping Surlak as an antagonist because of his research based on the archaeotech on Ghenna.

Have Mago and co return with Angron to find their Legion broken already, with Angron waking up during a boarding action spearheaded by Khârn.

 

The way things stand in the novel as it is, I felt like Tethys was extremely underused for anything but a vehicle to carry the flashbacks.

Another thing that bugged me was that After Desh'ea ended on a positive note, with Angron even calling the newly christened World Eaters his little brothers, and kinda embracing them as his own. Here, years later, we see him as having rejected them all along, making unreasonable demands and not seeing them even as his sons, let alone brothers. He even escapes from the Legion to hide and hopefully die gloriously elsewhere. After Desh'ea left me feeling like Angron had at least in part accepted his place, albeit with misgivings. Heck, it appeared like he even respected the War Hounds for their devotion and brotherhood, where here, he seemed to mock it and forced them to kill one another on the regular.

 

And then that cliffhanger, spending an entire chapter on the arrival of the Wolves and how it was perceived by bridge crew... but then not doing anything with it. Readers who haven't read Betrayer will have no idea what the hell the significance is. Even if you have read Betrayer, chances are you won't remember that the Night of the Wolf happened at Ghenna. There's also a missed opportunity here, which could have further justified the Wolves meddling with another Legion - have Mago being the one to send out a report about the Nails, and that prompting Russ's involvement. That way, we at least would have some more impact to his resistance.

 

There are a lot of cool scenes, a lot of insights on Angron's past and his motivations, the War Hounds leaving the stage... but there's about equally as much that I wasn't quite satisfied with. Maybe it needed another 100 pages to fully satisfy.


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#58
Lord_Caerolion

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Darn, was getting my hopes up on this one.


"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


You're hired.


#59
The_son_of_Dorn

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Christ, some consistency in angron would be nice.

#60
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i could buy into angron’s mindset and attitude towards his legion becoming worse over time, but would like the actual text to reflect that
can't touch this
can't touch this
can't touch this
warhammer time!
 

#61
RedFurioso

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He even escapes from the Legion to hide and hopefully die gloriously elsewhere.

It was such a powerful scene. One of the best scenes in the book. It was never mentioned before, and perhaps wider Imperium didn't even know about it.


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#62
The_son_of_Dorn

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Spoiler snipet?

#63
Jareddm

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I put the difference in Angron's feelings between the end of After Desh'ea and this is now Angron has actually seen his legion fight, and by his standards they're appallingly bad. Yes, as Mago states in the book, those standards are absurdly high and based on a wildly unfair benchmark, but that doesn't stop Angron from believing he's inherited a bunch of losers. I do agree that the timeline of events is a little all over the place, and the epilogue could've chosen a better scene, perhaps a scene from Isstvan III of a nail-raged Khârn standing over Mago's body?
In any case, I'd still put it in the "recommended" pile for the series.

#64
godking

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He even escapes from the Legion to hide and hopefully die gloriously elsewhere.

It was such a powerful scene. One of the best scenes in the book. It was never mentioned before, and perhaps wider Imperium didn't even know about it.

 

 

 

He even escapes from the Legion to hide and hopefully die gloriously elsewhere.

It was such a powerful scene. One of the best scenes in the book. It was never mentioned before, and perhaps wider Imperium didn't even know about it.

 

Realistically that would have been a perfect moment for the emperor to step in.

 

A Primarch was MIA for two years !


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#65
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He even escapes from the Legion to hide and hopefully die gloriously elsewhere.

It was such a powerful scene. One of the best scenes in the book. It was never mentioned before, and perhaps wider Imperium didn't even know about it.

 

 

 

He even escapes from the Legion to hide and hopefully die gloriously elsewhere.

It was such a powerful scene. One of the best scenes in the book. It was never mentioned before, and perhaps wider Imperium didn't even know about it.

 

Realistically that would have been a perfect moment for the emperor to step in.

 

A Primarch was MIA for two years !

 

Exactly. I was really tired of reading time and time again how Angron is :cuss up, his escape is just another example of author unable to think of something better. It adds nothing to the character or the plot. Calling it powereful is misunderstanding.

 

Problem is that Angron is just one dimmensional character and, thanks to very poor composition of this novel, we see him only as a raging psycho as a primarch and not very interesting Nucerian gladiatorial past. Most interesting elements of his estblished past like leading a slave revolt (used as a character development - Angron struggles with nails while leading his "little brothers", show how he fights against Nails influence, his loyalty battling with pain and compulsion to kill evrything in sight), Angron's interactions with other primarchs (Russ for example )or with Emperor (I'd certainly like to see his talk with Malcador a'la Mortarion/Khan), or Angron just TRYING to be a primarch and commander - and that especially could lend some credibility WHY Warhounds want to cripple themselves with Nails.

Instead of all of this, we get "ANGRON HATE, ANGRON SMASH!!!". Weak sauce.



#66
DarkChaplain

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Exactly. I was really tired of reading time and time again how Angron is censored.gif up, his escape is just another example of author unable to think of something better. It adds nothing to the character or the plot. Calling it powereful is misunderstanding.

 

 

I fundamentally disagree that his departure and hiding, and his reasoning, have been "another example of author unable to think of something better" or that "it adds nothing to the character or the plot".

 

Angron's reluctance to join the Crusade, his rejection of his Legion, his views on the Emperor a few years into his career as a Primarch and his ongoing resentment over not dying alongside his old brothers and sisters are on point. Khârn's conversation with him is pretty close to After Desh'ea's in importance, because it actually develops Angron from acting purely on self-loathing, and loathing of the Emperor, towards one of commanding his Legion (albeit.... not well) and fighting in the Crusade. It's a wakeup call delivered via Khârn that he would shame his kin, and hammers home once again how inevitable his role in the Imperium was, adding another layer of enslavement to him.

 

After all, Angron was not free to live, or liberate, Nuceria. He grew up in captivity, to the point of being implanted with the Nails over his refusal to kill his father figure. He did so under greatest agony and - as the last flashback to Nuceria showed - his cries of lament rang for days - while he was chained and locked up. Angron then was free for a moment, escaping with the other slaves, only to be cornered again. Then he wasn't free to die alongside his loved ones, but forced to join a war he did not care about, by a father that not only did he not care about but was actively hurt and, in his eyes, betrayed by, to conquer a galaxy for him for reasons he was never really privy to. He was forced to accept his Legion and harrassed by them until he begrudgingly accepted them. Then his entire existence was reduced to leading one war after another, admired by sons he grew to despise, all while the Nails enslaved his thoughts and - as the penultimate chapter(?) highlighted - lost a great deal of his humanity to, including what appears to be a vital psychic gift.

 

So he tried to leave it all behind, and return to the one moment he was able to make a choice he was proud of, a moment he stood with his kin who knew him like no others, who bled with him and suffered alongside him at the hands of the High-Riders. And he could not find anything to kill him. He could not even escape the hounds of his own Legion tracking him down after two years. Khârn didn't simply convince him to return. Khârn didn't really leave him a choice. Once again Angron was put against a wall, because he was confronted with the shadows of the past. The entire time we've known that he was still being haunted by not being able to die with his kin, that his forced teleportation may have been an act of betrayal to them. Not only did he survive when they did not, but he did not even get the chance to watch them die.

And now Khârn straight up tells him that he was disappointing them further by running away, by being a coward for real, and not because he was forcefully stolen away against his will, but by choice. Say what you will about Angron being "one-dimensional", but his code of honour was strong - it just did not apply to his Legion, or the Emperor, but his slain kin.

 

Honestly, I think your reading of the character, the novels and short stories featuring him, and the wider context of what the author was trying to do is extremely shallow and uncharitable to a fault. As much as the novel disappointed me in places, your super-selective and reductive view is, frankly, silly and disappointing.


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#67
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Still, not liking it and I disagree with most of what you say (over-interpretation I would call it), though I won't be getting into details. In the second paragraph of my post I wrote what exactly is my issue with this novel and I still stand by it. It's me being disappointed about not getting what I wanted/expected and you liking it. I have totally no problem with Haley's or Wright's Primarchs or other St Martin's works - he's a good writer, but Angron is just a wasted opportunity. Let's agree to disagree.



#68
Morovir

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I think much of what you are looking for was covered in St Martin's short story Ghost of Nuceria that was released at the same time as the LE version, as that covers the slave revolt and his leadership role, and his meeting with the Emperor.


Edited by Morovir, 13 June 2019 - 10:41 AM.

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#69
The_son_of_Dorn

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I'd of liked to see the nails simply presented in a different way. Suppressing his conscious mind into a the simple barbaric presentation we see, however from a psychic perspective, maybe a WE librarian or hell even Magnus having a peak into his subconscious mind seeing what angron really is, a true primach buried in his own rage induced mind.

A chance to hear Angron speak from a position of no physical interference to get a real snapshot of the primarch. That could added so much depth and potential to be built upon with how we all view Angron. A noble mind, trapped behind a veil of rage.

#70
Knockagh

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Pretty surprised at the negative comments on this one. I really enjoyed it.
I thought it showed how he was trapped in this violent and abusive system that moulded his character and broke his mind really well. These are short books and Ian did a fabulous job with that space. Certainly with a longer book he could have explored more veins but with the space he had I personally thought this was excellent.
Angron is a psychotic animal plagued by never ending pain and a novel that depicted him any other way would have been a misrepresentation.
I know people would prefer full length books but I’m glad they are novellas. I can barely fit in all the books i want to read so I find these a pleasant size.
Interesting to see people getting such poor vibes from a book I loved. Different strokes for all us different folks
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#71
The_son_of_Dorn

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Don't  get me wrong. I am only going on what's been posted here.  To be fair i'm not fit to comment having not ready any books past Deliverance lost atm. From what I've gathered though, although it may be very well written, it mainly appears to be a psychotic killer, killing psychotically. Although in segments I've read from other posting and books Angron just appears to be a bloody nail in his own coffin. No interest or concern for the world around him, just potentially the best warrior, tortured beyond all measure just wanting to die.

 

To me that's not a tragic story I can buy into. it's just depressing. Very much hope to be proved wrong though!


Edited by The_son_of_Dorn, 14 June 2019 - 03:24 PM.


#72
b1soul

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The idea of Tethys being able to have psychic conversations (a la Malcador and the Emperor in The Solar War) with a healthy Angron is a great idea...too bad they didn't use it

#73
Knight of the Raven

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I'd of liked to see the nails simply presented in a different way. Suppressing his conscious mind into a the simple barbaric presentation we see, however from a psychic perspective, maybe a WE librarian or hell even Magnus having a peak into his subconscious mind seeing what angron really is, a true primach buried in his own rage induced mind.

A chance to hear Angron speak from a position of no physical interference to get a real snapshot of the primarch. That could added so much depth and potential to be built upon with how we all view Angron. A noble mind, trapped behind a veil of rage.

Ask and the Communion shall provide.

Betrayer, chapter 4, pages 80, 81 and 82:

Spoiler

Edited by Knight of the Raven, 16 June 2019 - 06:28 PM.

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#74
Marshal Loss

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Finished. Found this underwhelming and unimpressive. It really didn't add anything substantial to either Angron or his Legion for me beyond what Betrayer had already masterfully provided. St. Martin also needed to do a little more research because there are a handful of notable chronological and factual errors. Would have much preferred a more original idea for the book's plot as there are a lot of other interesting themes yet to be explored with regards to Angron's character.


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