Future Directions (theory-crafting future release 40K)

[Brother Tyler]

To avoid a Horus Heresy 2.0 in the lore they’ve gotta embrace the multiple Primarchs against each other but loyal to terra story.

 

One could argue that to avoid a scenario where the Imperium is subjected to a civil war (what you describe as a "Horus Heresy 2.0"), the most likely solution is to have just one undisputed leader - Roboute Guilliman acting in the stead of the Emperor. Introducing additional Primarchs only creates a situation where some sort of civil war is more likely, especially if those Primarchs are "against each other."

 

Personally, I'm in the camp that considers fewer [loyalist] Primarchs a better thing, and I'm of the extreme opinion that just Roboute Guilliman is fine. The traitors still have many of their Primarchs, but they are subject to the restrictions of the Warp. The only situation in which additional [loyalist] Primarchs become necessary is when Roboute Guilliman and all of the forces of the Imperium aren't sufficient to combat multiple traitor Primarchs at once. That depends upon a lore progression where such a situation arises, though.

 

As it stands, we don't need more progression of the lore. The Dark Imperium has been a sufficient progression for now, giving us some changes while preserving a setting where the Imperium is threatened on all sides. There is considerable room for "old" lore to be changed due to the Dark Imperium details. There are plenty of holes in the lore, both of the "current" era as well as thousands of years of history, that can be explored before we need to move the setting forward again. I don't necessarily agree with any argument that the story is "great," but it has certainly given us a setting where there is considerable tension and excuse for war across the galaxy.

 

Pulling back from the lore progression tack, I think we'll see future releases in two veins. The first will be small campaigns where critical events around the time of the Vigilus campaign (some slightly before, but most either concurrent with or in the immediate aftermath of Vigilus) are explored. These will allow for existing factions to be fleshed out even further, with new special characters, and new equipment (some of it actually "new" in the style of Cawl, but much of it brought out of mothballs in the style of old AM) giving us new models. The second will be fleshing out factions and sub-factions that haven't yet been covered in 8th edition. For example, the Ynnari might be fleshed out starting with their Index Xenos article, but might see further attention in a future campaign. Similarly, we might see familiar regiments of the Astra Militarum brought up to date (in terms of rules and miniatures) via such campaigns; and we might see smaller niche factions/sub-factions such as the Inquisition brought into 8th edition in a similar manner.

 

I expect (hope) that lore progression will be incremental (or negligible) rather than substantial, giving us very small movements here and there while largely preserving the "current" setting. There is plenty of room for future releases of models without needing to kick the storyline forward again.

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

The Baal side is in so much worst condition than Terra that it really needs a Primarch to help them out.

Why, tho? The problems of the non-Terran side of the Rift are the distance between worlds, the lack of communication/coordination and the potential threat of marauding Chaotic raiders. A Primarch can maybe kind of help with that last one, but for the most part, Primarchs are just big dudes. They’re not all that singularly powerful or useful in the context of 40K.

So everything else is just peachy, xeno and heretic threats are minimal, no squabbling about politics, Dante is not trying to commit suicide, all the other SM chapter fell inline without any resistance. Primaris integration is 100% no problems.

 

These are all things on the Terra side that are issues Roboute are dealing, plus more. I doubt that Nihilus is having none of these issues. We don't know because GW hasn't told us, Nihilus is as dark to us as the Astronomicon is to them.

[FlamingDeth]

"But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed..."

 

Just a friendly reminder, as GW continues to write ridiculous soap opera herohammer, that this has been in the intro to every core rulebook for 40k that I can remember. I'm of the firm opinion that all of this small scale interpersonal drama should be left to novels instead of working to make the setting as a whole smaller.

[Doctor Perils]

Now, see, I don't agree that we should stall the storyline again after the events of Dark Imperium and Vigilus. One of the problems I had with 40k before gathering storm was that the studio kept cramming in more stuff happening in the last year of the 41st millenium, and it just ended up being overpacked and stale. Kicking the can down the road to 100.M42 won't alleviate that problem.

 

On the other hand, in the mean time, we do need more info on how the rift has affected most of the factions in 40k, not least the majority of Xenos forces - that means there is plenty of material to be written without moving the plot/setting forward for a year or more. Exploring other corners of the setting's history would also be welcome (in particular the Age of Apostasy)

 

 

I'd like them to do more smaller campaigns (presented alongside their battleboxes) to present examples of how the rift has affected the factions - smaller in the sense that only a handful of factions are fighting in it (unlike Vigilus that had half the factions in the game, with nothing given to most of them in game or model terms)

Conversely, a new global campaign would be nice, but it shouldnt involve only two factions, with a result written prior to the campaign happening, which is what happened last time.

 

 

On the subject of if the Primarchs should or shouldn't come back? I'd be fine with just the "cult primarchs" and guilliman being there, but GW will want to sell some of those juicy money-making centre piece models - and i'd probably rather it be a primarch come back from retirement then one of cawl's new abominations (for the record I'm mostly fine with Primaris, it's mostly Cawl's fluff I have a hard time with)

[Lexington]

So everything else is just peachy, xeno and heretic threats are minimal, no squabbling about politics, Dante is not trying to commit suicide, all the other SM chapter fell inline without any resistance. Primaris integration is 100% no problems.

They’re Problems, sure, just not one that the presence of a Primarch solves. If they can’t get from one place to another, they’re not very useful. Primarchs aren’t a panacea.

[Ishagu]

I think the Lion and Russ are mandatory releases for 40k at the bare minimum.

 

Russ and Khan would be awesome. And also Alpharius for both loyalists and chaos lol

[Marshal Rohr]

 

To avoid a Horus Heresy 2.0 in the lore they’ve gotta embrace the multiple Primarchs against each other but loyal to terra story.

One could argue that to avoid a scenario where the Imperium is subjected to a civil war (what you describe as a "Horus Heresy 2.0"), the most likely solution is to have just one undisputed leader - Roboute Guilliman acting in the stead of the Emperor. Introducing additional Primarchs only creates a situation where some sort of civil war is more likely, especially if those Primarchs are "against each other."

 

Personally, I'm in the camp that considers fewer [loyalist] Primarchs a better thing, and I'm of the extreme opinion that just Roboute Guilliman is fine. The traitors still have many of their Primarchs, but they are subject to the restrictions of the Warp. The only situation in which additional [loyalist] Primarchs become necessary is when Roboute Guilliman and all of the forces of the Imperium aren't sufficient to combat multiple traitor Primarchs at once. That depends upon a lore progression where such a situation arises, though.

 

As it stands, we don't need more progression of the lore. The Dark Imperium has been a sufficient progression for now, giving us some changes while preserving a setting where the Imperium is threatened on all sides. There is considerable room for "old" lore to be changed due to the Dark Imperium details. There are plenty of holes in the lore, both of the "current" era as well as thousands of years of history, that can be explored before we need to move the setting forward again. I don't necessarily agree with any argument that the story is "great," but it has certainly given us a setting where there is considerable tension and excuse for war across the galaxy.

 

Pulling back from the lore progression tack, I think we'll see future releases in two veins. The first will be small campaigns where critical events around the time of the Vigilus campaign (some slightly before, but most either concurrent with or in the immediate aftermath of Vigilus) are explored. These will allow for existing factions to be fleshed out even further, with new special characters, and new equipment (some of it actually "new" in the style of Cawl, but much of it brought out of mothballs in the style of old AM) giving us new models. The second will be fleshing out factions and sub-factions that haven't yet been covered in 8th edition. For example, the Ynnari might be fleshed out starting with their Index Xenos article, but might see further attention in a future campaign. Similarly, we might see familiar regiments of the Astra Militarum brought up to date (in terms of rules and miniatures) via such campaigns; and we might see smaller niche factions/sub-factions such as the Inquisition brought into 8th edition in a similar manner.

 

I expect (hope) that lore progression will be incremental (or negligible) rather than substantial, giving us very small movements here and there while largely preserving the "current" setting. There is plenty of room for future releases of models without needing to kick the storyline forward again.

If the Horus Heresy is the Roman Civil War, the Dark Millennium should be the dark ages. Guilliman May be Holy Roman Emperor, but he is not Holy, Roman, or an Emperor. Having other Primarchs return to control parts of the Imperium bound only by loyalty to the Emperor and constantly disagreeing about what that requires is those layers upon layers Jes G talks about. If the Lion returns to run an empire in Nihilus, there’s no reason for him to ever interact with Guilliman beyond a passing message back and forth. If Russ returns he could easily draw forces of the Imperium to him to wage a Crusade without Guilliman being able to stop him. The fact is, Guilliman coming back unleashed an avalanche, and it cannot be stopped. The Rift unleashed another avalanche that cannot be stopped. Moving the timeline forward a hundred years unleashed an avalanche that cannot be stopped. The only hope of returning 40k to the setting it was before Gathering Storm (and we’ll before that really) is to introduce conflicting power centers with competing legitimacy. With one Primarchs around you can’t have that. That’s the definition of Hegemony. The Imperium had Hegemony when the Emperor ruled and Guilliman is not the Emperor nor is he a substitute for him. Whatever success he has is not sustainable, as proven the last time he was in power before being wounded. Hegemony is anathema to the Imperium because it is anathema to human beings. If games Workshop runs with that angle, they have stepped away from the meta-philosophical commentary on humanity that was present from rogue trader to fifth edition and moved into the more fantastical direction of original series Star Trek. Vraks and Badab are great examples of 40k at its best. Vicious is a great example of 40k as an episode in a series about utopian heroes triumphing even when they lose.

 

I guess this isn’t on topic either but I’ll keep it up. I’ve said my piece and not interested in having another ‘why should real human behavior matter’ discussion.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Triszin]

I want progression, from this point on.

 

Steady slow progression.

 

When we dont have it, we get sudden drastic advancement which causes issues.

 

-------------------------------------------

I too would love to see how other XENOS respond to the rift and imperium, and the fact that roboute is back and exists.

 

Would love to see the terror the TAU go through.

 

Wait... One of their religious figures is real?

hes how old?

hes the son of their god?

 

uhh, does that mean there god exists?

 

uhh crap

[Bryan Blaire]

On the subject of time, Vigilus was pretty clear - GW definitely seems to be going away from telling us directly exactly how the time codes of any given campaign interact with the time codes of any other campaign, now that each region is expected to have its own time chronography. Our clues will likely come either in new BRBs or if characters from one campaign interact with another, and even then it might be pretty hazy regarding exactly when the “exact time code” for any given event might be, merely that Character X determines that it’s been 12 years in Conflict Sector Y since Battle Z occurred, it took them 8 weeks in the Warp to get to Conflict Sector A, and Character B says it’s been 3 years since Battle C.

[Marshal Rohr]

On the subject of time, Vigilus was pretty clear - GW definitely seems to be going away from telling us directly exactly how the time codes of any given campaign interact with the time codes of any other campaign, now that each region is expected to have its own time chronography. Our clues will likely come either in new BRBs or if characters from one campaign interact with another, and even then it might be pretty hazy regarding exactly when the “exact time code” for any given event might be, merely that Character X determines that it’s been 12 years in Conflict Sector Y since Battle Z occurred, it took them 8 weeks in the Warp to get to Conflict Sector A, and Character B says it’s been 3 years since Battle C.

That’s unfortunately one of the things they imported from Age of Sigmar when they were going to blow up 40k and make it another version of AoS.

[Ishagu]

I want progression, from this point on.

 

Steady slow progression.

 

When we dont have it, we get sudden drastic advancement which causes issues.

 

-------------------------------------------

I too would love to see how other XENOS respond to the rift and imperium, and the fact that roboute is back and exists.

 

Would love to see the terror the TAU go through.

 

Wait... One of their religious figures is real?

hes how old?

hes the son of their god?

 

uhh, does that mean there god exists?

 

uhh crap

I have been waiting for Guilliman's first dealings with the Tau.

 

For all the power of the Imperium, the Tau make it look like a squalid, unprofessional crap shoot. I'd love a story on how Guilliman completely out maneuvers their command and then a potential meeting where they see that there is truth behind thd Imperial religion and lore.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Ishagu

[FlamingDeth]

I'd love to see Guilliman not be directly involved with the Tau and also most other campaigns. He's one guy, he can't oversee a massive, inefficient bureaucracy and also a billion different military campaigns.

[Ishagu]

I'd love to see Guilliman not be directly involved with the Tau and also most other campaigns. He's one guy, he can't oversee a massive, inefficient bureaucracy and also a billion different military campaigns.

Not all campaigns but definitely one or two.

Dealing with the Tau is actually something that he'll have to do. They've out-foxed imperial commanders and have endured against multiple threats that should have easily consumed them.

 

It would take a superlative commander to defeat them, or even hurt them if not outright willing to destroy them without committing untold resources.

[War Angel]

Would love to see the terror the TAU go through.

 

Wait... One of their religious figures is real?

hes how old?

hes the son of their god?

 

uhh, does that mean there god exists?

 

uhh crap

How are more people not liking this?

[Panzer]

I want progression, from this point on.

 

Steady slow progression.

 

When we dont have it, we get sudden drastic advancement which causes issues.

 

-------------------------------------------

I too would love to see how other XENOS respond to the rift and imperium, and the fact that roboute is back and exists.

 

Would love to see the terror the TAU go through.

 

Wait... One of their religious figures is real?

hes how old?

hes the son of their god?

 

uhh, does that mean their god exists?

 

uhh crap

 

Well they have their own god now ... not that they are particularly happy about it though. :teehee:

 

But seeing the T'au's reaction to a being that's even bigger and even more powerful than a Marine which is already a demi-god to humans which already are physically more capable than T'au would be fun. I'd love to see Guilliman and the T'au Empire work together though, or at least have a non-aggression pact while the forces of Chaos are knocking at the door. Guilliman doesn't really need yet another neighbor of Ultramar as enemy now that the Deathguard are there, he's spreading his forces all over the galaxy to stop  Abaddon from doing stuff and the Necron being another neighbor of Ultramar. ^^

[Xwingt65]

 

The Baal side is in so much worst condition than Terra that it really needs a Primarch to help them out.

Why, tho? The problems of the non-Terran side of the Rift are the distance between worlds, the lack of communication/coordination and the potential threat of marauding Chaotic raiders. A Primarch can maybe kind of help with that last one, but for the most part, Primarchs are just big dudes. They’re not all that singularly powerful or useful in the context of 40K.

I don’t know if you have read Spears of the Emperor? But the situation is so bleak and dire on the Bhaal side of the rift, that the council of Terra woukd have evacuated it of the troops they could, and written that entire portion of the galaxy off as a lost cause. Only Guilliman stopped it from happening.

 

Primarchs in 40k are anything but “just big dudes” they can exert far more influence than in 30k, and by their mere presence could instill a sense of hope, that would help keep the dark at bay.

[Xwingt65]

 

I want progression, from this point on.

Steady slow progression.

When we dont have it, we get sudden drastic advancement which causes issues.

-------------------------------------------

I too would love to see how other XENOS respond to the rift and imperium, and the fact that roboute is back and exists.

Would love to see the terror the TAU go through.

Wait... One of their religious figures is real?

hes how old?

hes the son of their god?

uhh, does that mean there god exists?

uhh crap

I have been waiting for Guilliman's first dealings with the Tau.

For all the power of the Imperium, the Tau make it look like a squalid, unprofessional crap shoot. I'd love a story on how Guilliman completely out maneuvers their command and then a potential meeting where they see that there is truth behind thd Imperial religion and lore.

Yeah this will never happen. Take the complete faith in the Greater Good away from Tau, would be the same as having Sisters of Battle start judging wheter the Emperor is a god.

[Panzer]

 

I'd love to see Guilliman not be directly involved with the Tau and also most other campaigns. He's one guy, he can't oversee a massive, inefficient bureaucracy and also a billion different military campaigns.

Not all campaigns but definitely one or two.

Dealing with the Tau is actually something that he'll have to do. They've out-foxed imperial commanders and have endured against multiple threats that should have easily consumed them.

 

It would take a superlative commander to defeat them, or even hurt them if not outright willing to destroy them without committing untold resources.

 

 

It's not that bad. The T'au "lost" the Damocles campaign and the imperium would've simply waltzed through their whole territory effectively wiping them out from the galaxy and the setting if there wasn't this stupid plot device of "oh crap we are needed somewhere else, let's just leave them to recover and set the gulf on fire instead". Classic GW campaign writing but for all their technology the T'au simply wouldn't be able to hold their ground in a war of attrition and it's not like the imperium is completely uncapable with just numbers on their side either.

[Robbienw]

I'd like to see Gulliman crush the Tau under his heel like a tiny bug, like the Primarchs and legions did to many more powerful races during the great crusade, but its not going to happen because Tau models sell well making GW lots of money 

[Karhedron]

On the subject of if the Primarchs should or shouldn't come back? I'd be fine with just the "cult primarchs" and guilliman being there, but GW will want to sell some of those juicy money-making centre piece models - and i'd probably rather it be a primarch come back from retirement then one of cawl's new abominations (for the record I'm mostly fine with Primaris, it's mostly Cawl's fluff I have a hard time with)

I vaguely remember hearing about someone asking the Devs last year what the plan was for bringing back more Primarchs. Their basic answer was that they don't have a long term plan. The Devs are constantly kicking ideas about. Major story points occur when they have a good idea for a model that coincides with a great idea for a storyline. This suggests there is no timetable for bringing out more Primarchs, they will do it if they have a good idea. This kinda fits with the Primarch releases we have seen so far.

 

Magnus: Campaign release

Guilliman: Campaign release

Mortarion: Released with the launch of a new army

 

If GW had a timetable for more Primarch releases, I would have expected to see something by now. Since Mortarion came out, we have had a new Dark Angel codex and (more recently) a new Space Wolves codex. These are the 2 loyalists perhaps most likely to return so releasing them with their codex would have been a solid plan. The SW codex even goes so far as to state that the Rune Priests now believe the Wolf Time has come.

 

If GW wanted to do a campaign release for another Primarch then Vigilus would have been a perfect opportunity but again, it did not happen. Granted we got a new Abaddon who is almost halfway to a Primarch in terms of power levels.

 

What all this suggests to me is GW don't have any solid timetable for further Primarch releases and are probably waiting for a "cool idea" for the next one.

[Ishagu]

Remember GW work a few years in advance.

 

Guilliman and the the campaigns he came with are a big hit, and the model sold like hot cakes. GW have seen this and will be looking to emulate it over and over again. It's a business after all.

 

Even if they had absolutely no concrete plans for multiple loyalist Primarchs, the success would have put plans in motion for more of them. With the two+ year turnaround, really we should be expecting a new one sometime soon.

[Panzer]

We also got told that they plan to give each primarch their spotlight so there will be big gaps between their releases if they release more. They want to take all the time they need to give each of them the attention they deserve.

[Halandaar]

My beef with GW doing more loyalist Primarchs is that it's even more Space Marine releases in a game which is already heavily saturated with them. If you're going to do that, then they need to be interesting, and not just a slight re-skin of their Heresy versions (i.e. what Guilliman is). 

 

The likes of Fulgrim and Angron can be interesting because they are fundamentally different in the timeline of 40k than their existing Heresy incarnations, and cross the lines between disparate model ranges (Marines and Daemons). The only loyalist Primarch that ticks that box for me is Russ, presuming he has been sufficiently Wulfen-ized over the intervening millennia. Everybody else is just the same guy in slightly different armour.

 

Overall, I'd much rather see a massive, war-engorged Ghazkull, a sneering Asdrubael Vect on an opulent dais, even a new Greater-Daemon sized Avatar of Khaine.

 

There are plenty of iconic characters in the existing 40k setting without dipping back in time to bring back more big Space Marines. I mean, i'd even rather see Pedro Kantor become a Redemptor Dreadnought than a returning Dorn.

[Ishagu]

We've had plenty of support for other factions recently at least.

Orks definitely need a few extra characters but they've had quite a few new kits. And look at GSC recently.

 

The Marine line is currently in transition and needs more releases, but also we need extra unique hooks to the chapters.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Ishagu

[Karhedron]

The likes of Fulgrim and Angron can be interesting because they are fundamentally different in the timeline of 40k than their existing Heresy incarnations, and cross the lines between disparate model ranges (Marines and Daemons). The only loyalist Primarch that ticks that box for me is Russ, presuming he has been sufficiently Wulfen-ized over the intervening millennia. Everybody else is just the same guy in slightly different armour.

Not quite Corax has undergone some serious changes in the Eye according to "Shadows of the Past". He was powerful enough to give post-ascension Lorgar a serious kicking, an event which was revealed to be the reason Lorgar has gone into seclusion.

 

Overall, I'd much rather see a massive, war-engorged Ghazkull, a sneering Asdrubael Vect on an opulent dais, even a new Greater-Daemon sized Avatar of Khaine.

I do agree here, the other races of galaxy deserve some time in the spotlight (although I would welcome more Primarchs). A GD sized Avatar (along with appropriately awesome rules) would be very welcome. The whole Aspect Warrior line really needs a revamp. Ironically, there could be a new storyline following on from "The Fracture of Beil Tan" and the rise of the Ynnari. Biel Tan was always the Craftworld most associated with the Path of the Warrior. A storyline focusing on their attempts to rebuild would give opportunities for new Aspect Warriors and an Avatar.