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Vigilus Falls, What next?(Here be spoilers)


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#1
Sete

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Abbadon successfully conquers Vigilus? What else?
Would he then be in a position to defend the planet to secure a passage thought the rift?

Would he destroy the planet to spread the Rift?
Chaos plan seems to be to cut the light of the astronomican to isolate Terra, this would facilitate a new siege.

What are you guys expecting to happen?

Edited by Sete, 24 March 2019 - 08:48 PM.


#2
PiñaColada

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I'll just copy in my post fgrom the Abaddon thread since this is a better place for it:
 

I absolutely hope Vigilus falls so we reintroduce the elements from Dark Imperium, that whole plotline feels a bit like a side track right now. 
 
I'm also a bit sad that we got a new Calgar as I hoped that Abaddon could actually get to kill off a significant character in his return and Calgar would've been a perfect candidate IMO. I realise some people would've been massively upset but I don't like that every main charcter ever is safe, isn't actual consequences the reason people love Game of Thrones? But, now that they've made a new Calgar model he won't die.
 
Maybe he gets to off someone else but then I'm sure that character didn't end up truly dying and just gets "primarisised" instead.. Let's buck the trend and move the plot forward, Vigilus ending up being Cadia 2.0 just negates the impact of Cadias fall IMO.

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#3
sfPanzer

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Wasn't there something about blackstone pillars burried deep into Vigilus? I'm sure the point of attacking Vigilus is not to hold it but to destroy it and increase the reach of the great rift. The closer the great rift gets to terra the easier it is to attack terra for him and the more trouble the Imperium has to keep their territory together.

 

I expect Vigilus to end with yet another not-Victory like every other GW campaign. How exactly that will look I have no clue. I don't think anybody expected the Damocles campaign ending with the Imperium simply leaving and setting the gulf on fire or the Cadia campaign to end with the planet being blown up due Abaddon throwing a Blackstone fortress at it.

All I know is that any kind of victory will most likely get softened by other things happening (after Damocles the T'au got their strongly depleted military force back quite quickly and the gulf isn't on fire anymore and after Cadia we got a Primarch and Primaris for the loyalists). Maybe we'll get to see another Primarch who has a way to get through the great rift so he doesn't need that Vigilus passage after all. Russ maybe.

 

What I'm wishing for though is that Chaos wins, Vigilus gets destroyed, the great rift grows, and the Imperium gains nothing as compensation for it. Simply a true loss for the Imperium and a true victory for Chaos. I don't mind more Primarchs returning but hopefully not immediately. After 2-3 more campaigns maybe.


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Disclaimer:

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So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#4
Quantum

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Why would he even want to conquer the planet? Up till now his goal was to destroy all the blackstone pylons he could find, so why even keep Vigilius intact?

 

Personally I think it will end in a sort of stalemate: both sides bloodied but not quite losing. Abaddon & Calgar trading blows but no-one making an actual kill. Vigilius becomes a Chaos stronghold but the Nachmound Gauntlet remains open, so Imperial forces can reach the Imperium Nihilius while Chaos forces can strike the Imperium Sanctus. Sectors around Vigilius become a battleground for running battles between Chaos and Imperium as they make moves and countermoves.


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"The Nova Terra Interregnum has been remembered unfairly by those few who remember it at all. True, many malcontents, provocateurs and petty lordlings flocked to its banner when it seceded. But its attempts to contain the aggressive expansion of the Ecclesiarchy were born from an honest desire to uphold those values at the hart of the Great Crusade. It is ironic that the last gasp of the Emperor's true vision was finally throttled at the hands of those who fought in His divine name, on the planet that once reminded our Lord of 'Urf, long ago...'"
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#5
Sete

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I agree that Vigilus becoming the new Cadia is unimaginative.
But unless the Imperium pushes Abbadon back what else is stopping Abbadon from actually reaching Terra?
I assume there are a few more fortified planets around. Unless we have a a sneaky 3rd book coming and chaos is pushed from Vigilus. A new Primarch maybe? Another chapter arrives to reinforce the Ultramarines? What would happen to Calgar? Dead after such a short time as Primaris? I can't see that happening aswell.

#6
MrZakalwe

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The fluff story mentioned a vision of two attacks so I'm hoping the attack on Vigilus is twinned with an attack on the other main corridor and both fall cutting the Imperium in two with the G-man on the other side from Terra.

 

In the vacuum the High Lords of Terra make a play to take back the power they lost from Bobby dividing the Imperium faction in two and starting a new civil war (albeing currently a cold one as Chaos are in the middle).

 

Reboute responds but saying 'screw this' and starts moving his half of the Imperium towards the Big E's original vision so there's a serious cultural divergence.

 

It's a bit wild and it will never happen but it would be cool as hell and divide the monolithic IMPERIUM keyword in two. 


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#7
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Like east and west Roman Empire.
I actually like that idea.
I don't think it will ever happen tho.
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#8
Ishagu

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The High Lords will not move against Guilliman in any way. The Custodes will be watching them like hawks, and a few have already been replaced by RG so I don't imagine there will be any overt power plays that could weaken the Imperium.

I can see Abaddon taking Vigilus, which would lead to some vast counter offensive? Perhaps not led by RG but another loyalist Primarch such as the Lion. Recovering Vigilus could be the exact grand story that can justify the return of another loyalist.

I don't believe Guilliman will be involved in Vigilus pt2 as I don't think Abaddon could defeat RG in open warfare. Tactically and logisticallty a main fleet commanded by RG would have the upper hand. Aside from this I don't imagine anyone could keep Abaddon away.

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#9
Marshal Loss

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I want Abaddon to win not because I'm an incredibly biased Abaddon fan (though I am), but because a failure on this front simply recreates the status quo we had before. Vigilus should not just turn into the new Cadia. I am sick of reading stories from the main studio where Chaos loses...just because.

 

GW have a chance with this release to rectify decades of wrongs. Over the last ~5(?)+ years there has been a concerted effort to reestablish Abaddon and Chaos (the former almost singlehandedly by ADB) as the main threat facing the Imperium. The Gathering Storm was done woefully and felt rushed - certainly not the grand campaign or fitting end for Cadia that many had hoped for. 8th is a new era. Have Abaddon sweep the Imperium aside on Vigilus and then take the opportunity to look elsewhere. Armageddon is an obvious candidate that has been heavily foreshadowed, but Imperium Nihilus could also be really fascinating. I'd love to see how Dante & the Imperials hold it all together when their only bridge to the larger Imperium has been cut off. Tons of potential there that would be unlike anything GW have done before. Perhaps the Imperials could take back Vigilus eventually, or the plot will someday develop to a point where holding it is meaningless. But for now, the planet should fall or at the very least be denied to the Imperium.

 

Guilliman won't rock up because GW will want to save that horse for a different race. The galaxy is a big place. He should not be everywhere; it is a big part of what makes the Primaris lore so damn laughable. I'd like to think that they've learned their lesson(s).

 

I just hope GW have the courage to make the right decision and not just go for their default "hit the Pyrrhic victory button, quick!" stance re: story writing. As GW themselves have said; Vigilus will belong to the Warmaster.


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#10
PiñaColada

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Two theatres of war is a great little twist. 

I think the issue is that we as fans have been too accepting of these somewhat lazy pyrrhic victory campaigns for too long and when GW let Cadia fall and introduced some semblance of moving the plot forward then it's difficult to close that pandoras box again.

Assume for a second that Vigilus falls. Even if that happens then I have to believe that a campaign goes back to Armageddon again, seeing as you can easily tie in both Orks & Chaos as antagonists there (because it's Ullanor & that's where Angron was banished I think).

 

They also have the whole thing where Orks are jumping into the warp looking for fights so if Chaos gets the upper hand they can always just throw in an "Orkus ex machina" where they inadvertently end up helping the Imperium by stalling the chaos fleets.

A real oddball suggestion would be if the Imperium routes the Chaos fleets and goes on the counter-offensive only to be ordered back to Terra by panicked, classified messages. ¨The void dragon of Mars has awoken and leads to an admech civil war (if they want to expand those model ranges). It would also lead to conflict uncomfortably close to Terra and might expand a bit on the strange relationship between admech and the rest of the Imperium.


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#11
Ishagu

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I agree Guilliman shouldn't make an appearance and that the galaxy is a big place.

Funny enough the lore actually explains why RG gets around so fast. The Emperor literally calms the warp wherever he goes so he can warp around quickly without delays and difficulty.

People gotta read the novels lol

Edited by Ishagu, 07 March 2019 - 12:42 PM.

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#12
Marshal Loss

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Funny enough the lore actually explains why RG gets around so fast. The Emperor literally calms the warp wherever he goes so he can warp around quickly without delays and difficulty.

People gotta read the novels lol

 

Reading the novels and thinking the justification for him managing to get around handing out Primaris like candy to everybody and their grandmother is stupid are not mutually exclusive concepts.


Edited by Marshal Loss, 07 March 2019 - 12:48 PM.

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#13
Marshal Rohr

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Vigilus is going to become the Allgate from AoS. It allows Archaon to strike out at any realm, and Vigilus will do the same for the Imperium, allowing Abaddon to strike at Nihilus (where they've been conquering lots of territory) and Imperium Normal. This is essentially perfect for the 'ONE HUNDRED YEARS LATER' time skip the story took past Cadia. Everyone got Primaris, and now you can cut the two halfs off from each other again.


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#14
The_Bloody

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Maybe we'll get to see another Primarch who has a way to get through the great rift so he doesn't need that Vigilus passage after all. 

 

Did somebody say... Tuchulcha?



#15
Brother Casman

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What I would like to see is "Vigilus Falls to the Warmaster". Abaddon can then fortify the Nachmund Gauntlet, or do whatever. After that, I would shift the story focus to the Imperium Nihilus and explore truly "wild space". Let this half of the Imperium contract to a few scattered bastions. Without the dominance of the Imperium, we can then explore whatever may have been lurking in the shadows - new armies, new races, new threats. Occasionally, the Imperium Sanctus (on the Terran side of the rift) can send reinforcements, convoys running the Gauntlet, a mad scramble to get new gear through and establish new bastions. They won't be able to do it all the time, though, since the existing threats are still there.

I think this would open up the creative space quite nicely and give us all a great sandbox to play in.
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#16
sfPanzer

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Maybe we'll get to see another Primarch who has a way to get through the great rift so he doesn't need that Vigilus passage after all. 

 

Did somebody say... Tuchulcha?

 

 

No, I said Russ. :P


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#17
RapatoR

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Like east and west Roman Empire.
I actually like that idea.
I don't think it will ever happen tho.

 

I mean, the RG is pretty heavily inspired by the roman emperor Diocletian, a man who stabilized the Empire, implemented extensive reforms, reduced size of the legions to 1000 men, to prevent military rebellions (as one of the reasons), ruled with three other co-emperors in form of so-called Tetrarchy and split the empire into two parts - Western and Eastern. I mean, the parallels are pretty eye-gouging, even if in 40k, the splitting of the Imperium is not RG's doing.(Also in 40k, the capital seems to be located in the "Eastern" part of  the Imperium, rather than in "Western" which has fallen and si playground for "barbarians", but that's beside the point.

 

But since now we have chap named Belisarius running around (which is probably inspired by the Byzantine general of the same name, who for a short time reconquered parts of the Western Empire and even Rome itself), the "East-West" conflict would be unlikely if we would solely rely on historical parallels. However I doubt the GW would slavishly try to repeat Roman history, so anything is possible.

 

Concerning the discussion above me: How funny/ironic would it be, if the Abaddon would become the one who holds the gate, and the Imperium the forced to send crusades through that gate?


Edited by RapatoR, 07 March 2019 - 12:58 PM.

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#18
Leif Bearclaw

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What I'm wishing for though is that Chaos wins, Vigilus gets destroyed, the great rift grows, and the Imperium gains nothing as compensation for it. Simply a true loss for the Imperium and a true victory for Chaos. I don't mind more Primarchs returning but hopefully not immediately. After 2-3 more campaigns maybe.

 

See, I just don't get this. The Imperium always loses these big events. And I'm just plain tired of it (and no 'the Imperium's meant to lose, it's grimdark' is not a justification, it's grimderp stupidity at its finest). Damocles? It's Imperial worlds that burn, Imperial forces made to look like chumps by the Tau and Tau recover from their 'setback' instantly. Fenris? Exactly the same. Oh noes, Magnus didn't destroy Fenris, but he censored.gifed it up, destroyed other Imperial worlds, and got his ritual off to bring Sortiarus into real space. The Wolves are gutted, but the Sons don't seem to be damaged in the slightest. Cadia? How was that anything other than a complete victory for Chaos? Oh dear, Abby lost a Blackstone, but achieved exactly what he wanted and tore the galaxy the mother of all Space Holes in the process (arguably the single greatest win in the setting, but that apparently doesn't 'count'). Indomitus Crusade? What did that actually achieve beyond deliver Primaris to wherever the model designers need them? The galaxy's still beyond screwed, the barbarian hordes weren't thrown back, at best they took a weekend break at the seaside. The fragile cohesion and logistics of the Imperium is so shot by the rift (and the Nids, Necrons, Orks etc. which never seem to obstruct each other in any meaningful way), I have no idea how it's even meant to have persisted for the century long time skip. If these are Imperial 'victories' we need a new classification, because just 'pyrrhic' doesn't seem adequate to describe them any more. The only 'failures' Chaos seems to have had recently are not preventing Gulliman's resurrection and losing on the moon (which would've caused possibly fatal damage to the setting if they'd won there).

 

It's way past time Chaos and Abby had something go truly wrong for them. With all the retconning around the Black Crusades recently, has Abby actually ever truly lost? (Genuine question here, in all the recent fluff I'm aware of, he either outright wins or gets his 'just as planned!' sneaky success).


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#19
sfPanzer

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What I'm wishing for though is that Chaos wins, Vigilus gets destroyed, the great rift grows, and the Imperium gains nothing as compensation for it. Simply a true loss for the Imperium and a true victory for Chaos. I don't mind more Primarchs returning but hopefully not immediately. After 2-3 more campaigns maybe.

 

See, I just don't get this. The Imperium always loses these big events. And I'm just plain tired of it (and no 'the Imperium's meant to lose, it's grimdark' is not a justification, it's grimderp stupidity at its finest). Damocles? It's Imperial worlds that burn, Imperial forces made to look like chumps by the Tau and Tau recover from their 'setback' instantly. Fenris? Exactly the same. Oh noes, Magnus didn't destroy Fenris, but he censored.gifed it up, destroyed other Imperial worlds, and got his ritual off to bring Sortiarus into real space. The Wolves are gutted, but the Sons don't seem to be damaged in the slightest. Cadia? How was that anything other than a complete victory for Chaos? Oh dear, Abby lost a Blackstone, but achieved exactly what he wanted and tore the galaxy the mother of all Space Holes in the process (arguably the single greatest win in the setting, but that apparently doesn't 'count'). Indomitus Crusade? What did that actually achieve beyond deliver Primaris to wherever the model designers need them? The galaxy's still beyond screwed, the barbarian hordes weren't thrown back, at best they took a weekend break at the seaside. The fragile cohesion and logistics of the Imperium is so shot by the rift (and the Nids, Necrons, Orks etc. which never seem to obstruct each other in any meaningful way), I have no idea how it's even meant to have persisted for the century long time skip. If these are Imperial 'victories' we need a new classification, because just 'pyrrhic' doesn't seem adequate to describe them any more. The only 'failures' Chaos seems to have had recently are not preventing Gulliman's resurrection and losing on the moon (which would've caused possibly fatal damage to the setting if they'd won there).

 

It's way past time Chaos and Abby had something go truly wrong for them. With all the retconning around the Black Crusades recently, has Abby actually ever truly lost? (Genuine question here, in all the recent fluff I'm aware of, he either outright wins or gets his 'just as planned!' sneaky success).

 

 

Yeah no I heavily disagree. However going into detail and explaining my view on all those things seems to go a bit into offtopic area as it's all past stuff and this thread is about future stuff.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#20
Marshal Loss

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Sorry, that logic doesn't hold up at all Leif. Chaos doesn't generally get true victories. The trend in all of those examples is "Pyrrhic victory" or "Stalemate". Every. Single. Time.

 

  • Damocles: Stalemate.
  • Fenris: Magnus loses the war on Fenris, a single no-name character dies and then the Crimson King accomplishes his master plan that the good guys didn't know about but doesn't directly have an impact on the present (this is the default state for Chaos "victories" - they never get real wins).

 

This is a good example, really. What damage was actually done to the Space Wolves? Lasting damage? Nothing. A single named character without a model died. All of the other important chaps are still alive and running around. And through it all, Fenris stood. They took heavy casualties sure but what does that really matter in the greater scheme of things? They will always have as many Wolves as the plot demands. This is a textbook Pyrrhic victory. It isn't like the Wolves knowingly fought to stop the ritual and failed; it was yet another time where Chaos loses but just happened to have a secret plan cooking in the background. That doesn't feel like a true win, it feels like an attempt by GW to give Chaos a victory without being willing to actually do any real damage to the Imperium.

 

  • Cadia: Abaddon is made to look like an idiot in the Gathering Storm 1 and wins by blowing up the planet, which he could have done right from the beginning
  • Indomitus Crusade: Guilliman manages to turn what we are told is a lost cause into a new status quo with Primaris reinforcements being handed out literally everywhere to everybody. You even have chapters that were on the brink of extinction given new life.

 

Abaddon doesn't always win. What ADB & the BL supplement (admittedly with his guidance) have tried to place emphasis on is that Abaddon's crusade goals were not to burst through to Terra in a single attempt. It was this misconception that led many in the fanbase to label him a failure. Even in the BL supplement not all of his crusades are successes.

 

As SFPanzer said though, this sort of thing probably warrants a topic of its own.


Edited by Marshal Loss, 07 March 2019 - 01:17 PM.

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#21
sfPanzer

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It's not just chaos that suffers from those pyrrhic victories though. It's pretty much everyone. That's just how GW writes those events.


Edited by sfPanzer, 07 March 2019 - 01:09 PM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#22
Marshal Loss

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It's not just chaos that suffers from those pyrrhic victories though. It's pretty much everyone. That's just how GW writes those events.

 

Oh yeah, of course - I know that. But that's literally the point I was making. Imperium, Chaos, Xenos, none of them really get true victories. The only "true victory" on that list was Cadia and it certainly didn't feel like one reading the Gathering Storm, although you can chalk that up to woeful writing.


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#23
Sete

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I still don't believe that Vigilus is going to fall.
Chaos will be winning and then something will happen to setback Abbadons plan. I agree that if he wins he will destroy the planet. Why should he keep it when he can transverse the warp with less difficulty than the Imperials?

#24
Marshal Rohr

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As a rule of thumb, if Imperial players and Chaos players feel like their faction is never shown wiping the floor with the enemy that is an indication of even handed treatment.


  • PeteySödes, Cactus, Marshal Loss and 3 others like this

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#25
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

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It's not just chaos that suffers from those pyrrhic victories though. It's pretty much everyone. That's just how GW writes those events.

 
Oh yeah, of course - I know that. But that's literally the point I was making. Imperium, Chaos, Xenos, none of them really get true victories. The only "true victory" on that list was Cadia and it certainly didn't feel like one reading the Gathering Storm, although you can chalk that up to woeful writing.

 

Yeah I barely count Cadia as it directly lead to the return of a Primarch and the release of Primaris. Oh and the loss of Abaddons only Blackstone fortress.

Anyway, I didn't mean to disagree with you or something. Just an addition from my part before someone tries to claim it's just some chaos whining or whatever.


Edited by sfPanzer, 07 March 2019 - 01:14 PM.

  • Marshal Loss likes this

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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