Vigilus Falls, What next?(Here be spoilers)

[Toxichobbit]

Reading this thread, I can’t help but think about how the fandom’s expectations are so low, and the Studio seems to meet them consistently.

 

I don't even bother reading the background that GW puts out anymore, that's how low my expectations are. Even if I did care what was happening, I don't need to read the background because every plot is the same. Bad guys threaten area, if area is lost it will be apocalyptic to good guys, bad guys are almost going to win, something happens that causes bad guys to retreat at the last minute, some people almost die, the end.*

 

How close is that to Vigilus' storyline?

 

I wish GW would just leave major plotlines alone most of the time, only playing with them sparingly so that when something like Vigilus happens it's a big deal. Instead, concentrate on side stuff - planets that are important but can be lost, characters who can be killed, forces that can be wiped out, stuff in general that can be changed/destroyed without worrying about invalidating people's models. 40k as a setting is amazing because apocaluptic things happened and had consequences. 40k as a storyline is tripe because GW are afraid that consequencies will hurt their bottom line, but still want the apocalyptic things to happen.

 

* to stay vaguely on topic, this is also my answer to what happens after Vigilus "falls" - AKA, same , different planet.

[Lay]

I quite liked Vigilus. I had given up on GW's campaign books after the aimless story in the Warzone Fenris books, but this one was OK by comparison. Not amazing, but alright.

 

The biggest problem I have with GW's campaign books is the lackluster world building. FW's Imperial Armour books always had at least one chapter devoted to fleshing out the backdrop of the setting before the story started to focus on the actual conflict. That way you end up with a fictional history that informs how characters act and events unfold later on. It gives what is essentially a series of battles a bit more depth.

[Ishagu]

Vigilus is absolutely fine lol. Some of the complaints and hate is a bit comical.

 

It fleshes out the world, conflict, etc.

[Sete]

Vigilus is absolutely fine lol. Some of the complaints and hate is a bit comical.

 

It fleshes out the world, conflict, etc.

And most importantly Ultramarines. Give us a break.

[Ishagu]

Lol I don't let a misguided dislike for a chapter drive my opinions.

 

It's not edgy, cool or trendy to dislike them.

[Sete]

Lol I don't let a misguided dislike for a chapter drive my opinions.

 

It's not edgy, cool or trendy to dislike them.

My dislike is for your shill atitude. Every time someone says " eh it's not that great", there come ishagu with the, "oh geez I loved it.nothing wrong with it" Every.single.time. especially if it involves ultramarines.

Thats also not edgy cool or trendy. Just god damn annoying.

[Ishagu]

I didn't say I loved it lol. I said it's fine. It doesn't deserve the volume of negative criticism it has received.

 

My observation is that a lot of so called hobbyists just complain about everything. They don't like anything new, or anything which doesn't conform to their exact specifications. That's just unreasonable, and it's certainly not constructive or conducive to a positive environment for people invested in 40k.

 

I only own Vigilus 1 (I'll get 2 with my Next Chaos model purchases) but it's written well, the art is good, I like the maps and snips of lore. At no point was my reaction to hate it, and there's no real justification for anyone to. You certainly don't have to love it - It's not as good as some of thr Imperial Armour books for sure, but to really dislike or hate it? Nah that's too much.

[Toxichobbit]

I didn't say I loved it lol. I said it's fine. It doesn't deserve the volume of negative criticism it has received.

 

My observation is that a lot of so called hobbyists just complain about everything. They don't like anything new, or anything which doesn't conform to their exact specifications. That's just unreasonable, and it's certainly not constructive or conducive to a positive environment for people invested in 40k.

 

I only own Vigilus 1 (I'll get 2 with my Next Chaos model purchases) but it's written well, the art is good, I like the maps and snips of lore. At no point was my reaction to hate it, and there's no real justification for anyone to. You certainly don't have to love it - It's not as good as some of thr Imperial Armour books for sure, but to really dislike or hate it? Nah that's too much.

 

There is no way you know that people don't like anything new, unless you're actively stalking individual fraeter's profiles. Nor do you know the level of someone's dislike for something based on a few words online, unless the post is very expressive. You saying that just because someone voices a negative opinion (even if they do it regularly) that they dislike/hate vigilus or that they complain about everything, is no different to people accusing you of loving everything because you are mostly positive. You correct people when they do that to you, so please don't do it to others.

 

Also, remember a broken record sounds crap no matter whether it's a good or bad song. The same is true of endless positivity or criticism. It would benefit everyone involved to take a step back and consider a bit more moderation in their opinions and a bit more consideration for the opposing view point. Ishagu, you say that endless negativity is not constructive, but neither is endless positivity, nor endless complaining about people complaining.

 

GW need criticism to improve, just like they need praise. They need to know what's good and what's bad about what they're doing. Customer feedback is vital and on the whole, negative feedback is more useful (even negative feedback without anything constructive). While there might be the odd rotten apple who complains for the sake of it or because they have an age old beef with GW, I'm willing to bet that most people on this forum love 40k and their negativity and criticism is coming from that love, just like your positivity and praise is.

 

There's absolutely no reason for the positivity police to keep turning up and trying to invalidate people's opinions.

 

To get back on topic, I'm still of the opinion that whatever comes after Vigilus will be the same old, same old, just with different places and different faces. I hope I'm wrong, because it'd be really nice to have some real meaty storyline to get into that has some significant consequences, even if those consequences only affect one faction or a small (in galgactic terms) area of the Imperium.

[Robbienw]

Vigilus is absolutely fine lol. Some of the complaints and hate is a bit comical.

 

It fleshes out the world, conflict, etc.

It’s not hate if people criticise stuff, it’s just criticism.

 

Labelling people who’s opinion you dislike as haters is very childish.

 

You are becoming a caricature of yourself at this point :lol:

[Black Knight]

I think most are just tired of the middle path the lore takes, a lot of us can agree that they missed a trick with not killing or making one side actually take some ground. At the end of the day Vigilus wasn't lost and the Vengeful spirit was not destroyed. So close to actually making us going WOAH they went there but they buckled it at the last moment and that is even worse than doing nothing at all.

 

They should of either let Vigilus fall and made the Imperium charge in with Dante to retake it. They could of killed Calgar and used that to Primarisify him, killed Dante and done a ton of things with his body including Primarisifying/Saintifying him. Destroyed the Vengeful Spirit or had Abaddon come in on the Planet Killer and destroy that instead, so not loosing the symbol that the Spirit is.

 

So many things they could of done to make a massive spectacle that would of changed almost nothing for the Lore(Therefore not much work) but they gave us ALMOST! Nope everything is the same. A bit like the ending of Mass Effect 3, dam that was a good game until the last 5 mins.

 

That's why there is a shadow over Vigilus, most are done with no movement in the story and when they finally realise this and give us a Primarch they stick the crusading train back into neutral. All I can say is I really hope that the next Primarch(One is coming) makes a big bang, a really big BANG! The whole Lore needs it and after 50+ 40k and Horus Heresy Novels I need it.

[Race Bannon]

=] Ladies and Gentlemen, once it gets personal, then either take it to PM or keep fingers off keyboards. [=

[Jarl Caldersson]

Vigilus was 2 parts and they were going to move on to a different planet/setting. Which is what this thread should be focusing on, the next planet/setting.

[Triszin]

Vigilus had

- chaos Marines

- primaris

- Orks

- Gene stealer cults

- eldar

 

I'd like the next ones to be focused on the other factions, maybe new stuff for them.

[Panzer]

Vigilus had

- chaos Marines

- primaris

- Orks

- Gene stealer cults

- eldar

 

I'd like the next ones to be focused on the other factions, maybe new stuff for them.

 

Also SoB and AM and AdMech. Just no specialist detachment for those.

 

So next Necrons, T'au and Tyranids? Did I forget any faction? I guess it's possible even considering T'au fight Tyranids regularly and have Necrons nearby.

[Volt]

 

 

Vigilus is absolutely fine lol. Some of the complaints and hate is a bit comical.

 

It fleshes out the world, conflict, etc.

It’s not hate if people criticise stuff, it’s just criticism.

 

Labelling people who’s opinion you dislike as haters is very childish.

 

You are becoming a caricature of yourself at this point

I can predict your posts before you type them too.

 

Criticism is fine. I've never said it isn't. People are completely entitled to be indifferent about Vigilus, sticking to the topic, but it really doesn't do anything wrong enough to justify hate. Remember, it's completely optional.

 

Also worth keeping in mind that it's not thd end of the story. Part 3 is coming according to GW.

 

On the subject of killing Calgar and then making him a Primaris - that would have been pretty cool in fairness. The way it was done in the book is more of a personal sacrifice as he did it without any guarantees of success. Also it meant Abaddon had a big build up which he deserved.

 

What big buildup? Abaddon just suddenly shows up after his worthless scrub peon fails to accomplish anything of note, the scrub peon that nobody cares about doesn't even die for some reason, and then Abaddon eviscerates Calgar with casual ease and at no threat to himself and only fails to seize Vigilus because of last second Fallen/Eldar shenanigans ensuring that nothing actually happens.

 

You know how you write an actual, proper campaign? Characters die, entire forces are permanently destroyed, and worlds are permanently lost. If Vigilus was to be done right, Haarken should have died, the Chapters involved should have sustained grueling losses, and Calgar himself should have died as well to cement a kind of loss and usher in some new characters for once in a while. Vigilus then falls and the entire northern half of the Imperium is cut off and thus becomes its own thing instead of having some arbitrary tether to the south. That's good development of a setting. GW on a whole should start looking at Battletech for how to properly write events, campaigns, and plots instead of this current ridiculousness where nothing changes and all named characters with models are immortal.

[Slave to Darkness]

Yea kill off some characters, they were 'invented' to give us 'flavour examples' of the faction they are from, not something to use in every game. Wipe out a few factions, the Ultramarines would be a good place to start, (not hating on them exactly, part of that was the Word Bearer in me talking, the other parts because I'm just sick of them being rammed down my throat every time I open a book and its starting to leave a bad taste).

 

Actually, I dont even see the point in the summer campaigns, no matter how many games we play it still ends up a draw because GW wont let a faction tear the Imperium a new one. 

[Moonreaper666]

Jarran Kell had a model and was killed off. Surely there must be plenty of Imperium characters with old models/stats or not in the codexes

 

Cato Sicarius or some other famous Ultramarine should have sacrificed himself to save Calgar (It is an Ultramarine tradition to achieve victory through sacrifice). And then have the Black Legion and Word Bearers (using lots of Daemons) overwhelm and conquer Vigilus, turning it into a Daemon World and making the Gaunlet unstable. Eldar ship is decloaked and destroyed via Chaos Sorcerer

 

Guilliman intervenes and rallies a HUGE fleet supported by Eldar, Necrons AND Orks to fight the Black Legion Armada! Vengeful Spirit DESTROYS Maccrage Honour as well as Multiple Space Hulks, Eldar Capital Ships AND a Necron World Engine! Vengeful Spirit and Planet Killer are crippled and Black Legion retreats from Vigilus

 

Grey Knights sacrifice TWO Companies to destroy Vigilus and restore the Gauntlet through sheer Psyker Power!

[Triszin]

 

 

Vigilus had

- chaos Marines

- primaris

- Orks

- Gene stealer cults

- eldar

 

I'd like the next ones to be focused on the other factions, maybe new stuff for them.

Also SoB and AM and AdMech. Just no specialist detachment for those.

 

So next Necrons, T'au and Tyranids? Did I forget any faction? I guess it's possible even considering T'au fight Tyranids regularly and have Necrons nearby.

I would love to see a sob vs Tau campaign.

 

Imperial faitg vs the greater good would be a beast concept

[BitsHammer]

Jarran Kell had a model and was killed off. Surely there must be plenty of Imperium characters with old models/stats or not in the codexes

Sisters lost two Canoness going from 2nd to 3rd (one dead, the other I think is MIA but assumed dead), as well as Jacobus who originally died in 2nd edition (virus laden swamps and crazy old men with shotguns don't get along apparently). Kyrinov had a model but was removed when the mold wore out leaving only his mace as a relic for people who had the model.

 

There have been other casualties, but most of them are from not having dedicated models over anything else. The 3rd Company Imperial Fist captain from their supplement went MIA when we went to 8th edition for example.

 

Now I won't say I'm against characters dying, heck you can kill them and leave them in the codex to let us play older stories with them, or let them stand in as a count-as for our own characters. 

 

With the Primaris conversion being 60% (actually fairly high considering how low the conversion rate from regular human to Astartes is) I can see GW tossing some characters into the can and giving us new ones to replace them. Either by having the conversion process fail (say if it's done in response to being heavily wounded and the treatment was their only chance of living), or by having them fall in battle.

 

That said I've got one quibble about the Primaris: we've had how many releases for them so far and gotten a grand total of one actual character for them, and it was a character that already existed and not a new one. Even when they present a new character, it turns out to just be a generic character with new wargear options given a name and not an actual special character. I get that GW has been casting a broad net with the Primaris stuff, but I feel like we should have seen others before Calgar. 

 

As for Vigilus itself, I feel like it went a good direction. The Ultramarines didn't save the day, and the Eldar had to pull everyone's butt out of the fire instead. The way it's written likely could have been better, but considering how these things have gone in the past, the Eldar would have gotten stomped and Calgar would have given Abbadon the bane treatment only for Abbadon to come back even bigger and badder than before rather than what actually happened.

 

That said, I assume that since the last character who actually gave Abbadon a good fight was an elderly Sigismund (you know, the first Emperor's Champion, and the man who slayed multiple Heretic Astartes captains during the Siege of Terra) and Abbadon has likely only grown in skill and power since then, the fight between him and Calgar should have been a straight beat down. I'm sorry, but even making Calgar bigger and less likely to die doesn't make up for the fact that Abbadon can fight at the level of most Primarchs while Calgar can't.

[Panzer]

 

With the Primaris conversion being 60% (actually fairly high considering how low the conversion rate from regular human to Astartes is) I can see GW tossing some characters into the can and giving us new ones to replace them. Either by having the conversion process fail (say if it's done in response to being heavily wounded and the treatment was their only chance of living), or by having them fall in battle.

 

You got it backwards. The failure rate is ~60%.

[redmapa]

It seems like the main gripe with Vigilus is that everything is small, the planet itself is just a series of bare descriptions, a ton of factions were shovelled into the planet with minimal effort, almost like they were just running through a checklist, the main event was just two characters duking it out and the rest of the forces were just there for reference. It was just the huge setting of 40k reduced to two characters and little consequence despite the hype surrounding it.

 

I think Vigilus is a perfect example that the writers are just stuck in this narrative style that tells the audience how awesome something is but doesnt show it so we're stuck trying to feel engaged in something that is artificially propped up. Forgeworld does the exact opposite, all the IA and HH books never sell something but rather give you the impression of a thing, its never the full picture but ideas and images scattered throughout the book, they just show you things and you come up with whats really amazing and 40k never feels small despite them sometimes descrbing adventures or deeds of small bands of warriors.

 

Whoever is in charge of writing 40k lore needs to get their :cuss together or be replaced by the Forgeworld team, 40k deserves better treatment than uninspired mediocre drivel.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

With the Primaris conversion being 60% (actually fairly high considering how low the conversion rate from regular human to Astartes is) I can see GW tossing some characters into the can and giving us new ones to replace them. Either by having the conversion process fail (say if it's done in response to being heavily wounded and the treatment was their only chance of living), or by having them fall in battle.

 

You got it backwards. The failure rate is ~60%.

 

Still higher than the conversion rate of human to Astartes! And it still gives the dev team to kill off some characters in the lore, invent new ones and update the rest.

[Volt]

 

 

 

With the Primaris conversion being 60% (actually fairly high considering how low the conversion rate from regular human to Astartes is) I can see GW tossing some characters into the can and giving us new ones to replace them. Either by having the conversion process fail (say if it's done in response to being heavily wounded and the treatment was their only chance of living), or by having them fall in battle.

 

You got it backwards. The failure rate is ~60%.

 

Still higher than the conversion rate of human to Astartes! And it still gives the dev team to kill off some characters in the lore, invent new ones and update the rest.

 

We actually don't know what the success rate is with gene-seed acceptance due to different Chapters having different levels of reception/screening rituals.

[BitsHammer]

I thought the number was mentioned somewhere being something like 1 in 100 chosen, with Grey Knights being 1 of 1000 humans chosen.

 

You know, because blood typing doesn't seem to be a thing in the far future to ensure organ rejection isn't likely to occur....

[Bryan Blaire]

When Vigilus finally falls, we'll learn that the Imperium has discovered another method through to the Imperium Nihilus...

 

As it is, we're on to another campaign area! (Likely soon, maybe another quarter)

 

Let's accept and realize that a portion (likely a good portion) of the narrative in 40K comes because of the models being developed and ready for release - not that models have been developed because of a really good story they have written and need those models to support.

 

Also, they aren't going to potentially alter model sales because of a "satisfying narrative."

 

These things aren't going to change.

 

----------

 

Seems like the conversion rate/rate of acceptance of Astartes organs doesn't really speak to where we're off to next after the Vigilus campaign... there are places in the forum for those kinds of interesting discussions to occur.