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Vigilus Falls, What next?(Here be spoilers)


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#26
Marshal Loss

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Yeah exactly. At the end of the day, this is a setting for a tabletop wargame - giving everybody the kind of true victories that people pine for just isn't a realistic expectation. We wouldn't have a setting left to play in. We're getting some sort of story progression now, and as for whether it amounts to anything good or is simply a rehash of old templates: the ball is in GW's court.


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#27
Marshal Rohr

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Ideally, after Vigilus they should stop entirely with any kind of 'big' campaigns that impact the whole galaxy and focus on the Forge World style micro-conflicts that can contain massive armies, without being some kind of major fulcrum of history for the Galaxy. I'd rather read about and participate in a campaign where Abaddon is leading a portion of his forces at cracking open a Mechanicus Forge World in the IN than Abaddon and Guilliman slap fighting for the fate of the world.


Edited by Marshal Rohr, 07 March 2019 - 01:18 PM.

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#28
Morovir

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Bearing in mind that Cadian Honour was a early release, and so would have gone on general release after the resolution of the events on Vigilus:

 

Spoiler

 

Of course, this is all just assumption.


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#29
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we start to hear about some other worlds, where the Ministorum hold sway... setting up the sceen for the sisters return!



#30
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What I would like to see is "Vigilus Falls to the Warmaster". Abaddon can then fortify the Nachmund Gauntlet, or do whatever. After that, I would shift the story focus to the Imperium Nihilus and explore truly "wild space". Let this half of the Imperium contract to a few scattered bastions. Without the dominance of the Imperium, we can then explore whatever may have been lurking in the shadows - new armies, new races, new threats. Occasionally, the Imperium Sanctus (on the Terran side of the rift) can send reinforcements, convoys running the Gauntlet, a mad scramble to get new gear through and establish new bastions. They won't be able to do it all the time, though, since the existing threats are still there.I think this would open up the creative space quite nicely and give us all a great sandbox to play in.


This.

An orderly main imperium. A Wild West imperium. And desperate convoys like operation pedestal in WW2, desperately going between them.
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#31
Doctor Perils

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What I would like to see is "Vigilus Falls to the Warmaster". Abaddon can then fortify the Nachmund Gauntlet, or do whatever. After that, I would shift the story focus to the Imperium Nihilus and explore truly "wild space". Let this half of the Imperium contract to a few scattered bastions. Without the dominance of the Imperium, we can then explore whatever may have been lurking in the shadows - new armies, new races, new threats. Occasionally, the Imperium Sanctus (on the Terran side of the rift) can send reinforcements, convoys running the Gauntlet, a mad scramble to get new gear through and establish new bastions. They won't be able to do it all the time, though, since the existing threats are still there.I think this would open up the creative space quite nicely and give us all a great sandbox to play in.

This.

An orderly main imperium. A Wild West imperium. And desperate convoys like operation pedestal in WW2, desperately going between them.

Further this would allow us to focus more on Rogue Traders, Navigators, and possibly Explorators, as all these factions would become vital in moving from one side of the rift to the other.

Also, I can easily see Baal becoming the center of Imperium Nihilus, setting us up for a return of the Sanguinor as a divine avatar, where the Terran side actually moves back to a more secular mindset
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#32
Sandlemad

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Vigilus is going to become the Allgate from AoS. It allows Archaon to strike out at any realm, and Vigilus will do the same for the Imperium, allowing Abaddon to strike at Nihilus (where they've been conquering lots of territory) and Imperium Normal. This is essentially perfect for the 'ONE HUNDRED YEARS LATER' time skip the story took past Cadia. Everyone got Primaris, and now you can cut the two halfs off from each other again.

 

This would be excellent. The Eye is of lessened importance as a refuge or place to strike out from now that the great rift is the new hotness and Imperium Nihilus is ripe for plunder. What would distinguish Abaddon further from the daemon primarchs? Actually settling in the material realm and working from there, setting up a fortess world at the nachmund gauntlet. They might be demigods who turn the tide of battle when they show up, etc, but the Black Legion is the organised one that's establishing the beachhead and setting up a safe harbour for all the legions of the Eye. In the Imperium.

 

Think of that moment that a lot of dark ages/early medieval historical fiction included when they're discussing the northmen coming to Britain, where the Northumbrians (or whoever) realise that they're not here for plunder anymore, they're staying. That's what you milk for a sense of horror and looming dread.


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#33
Marshal Rohr

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Barbarian worshippers of Dark Gods invading civilization of civilization is the best story for any wargaming setting.


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#34
Leif Bearclaw

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Sorry, that logic doesn't hold up at all Leif. Chaos doesn't generally get true victories. The trend in all of those examples is "Pyrrhic victory" or "Stalemate". Every. Single. Time.

 

  • Damocles: Stalemate.
  • Fenris: Magnus loses the war on Fenris, a single no-name character dies and then the Crimson King accomplishes his master plan that the good guys didn't know about but doesn't directly have an impact on the present (this is the default state for Chaos "victories" - they never get real wins).

 

This is a good example, really. What damage was actually done to the Space Wolves? Lasting damage? Nothing. A single named character without a model died. All of the other important chaps are still alive and running around. And through it all, Fenris stood. They took heavy casualties sure but what does that really matter in the greater scheme of things? They will always have as many Wolves as the plot demands. This is a textbook Pyrrhic victory. It isn't like the Wolves knowingly fought to stop the ritual and failed; it was yet another time where Chaos loses but just happened to have a secret plan cooking in the background. That doesn't feel like a true win, it feels like an attempt by GW to give Chaos a victory without being willing to actually do any real damage to the Imperium.

 

  • Cadia: Abaddon is made to look like an idiot in the Gathering Storm 1 and wins by blowing up the planet, which he could have done right from the beginning
  • Indomitus Crusade: Guilliman manages to turn what we are told is a lost cause into a new status quo with Primaris reinforcements being handed out literally everywhere to everybody. You even have chapters that were on the brink of extinction given new life.

 

Abaddon doesn't always win. What ADB & the BL supplement (admittedly with his guidance) have tried to place emphasis on is that Abaddon's crusade goals were not to burst through to Terra in a single attempt. It was this misconception that led many in the fanbase to label him a failure. Even in the BL supplement not all of his crusades are successes.

 

As SFPanzer said though, this sort of thing probably warrants a topic of its own.

You might say that, but I'd argue that the Imperium loses more in each of those examples than the other side (except maybe Indomtius, but that's the mother of all pyrrhics imo). Apologies for the cliff notes summaries, but I hope they get my stance across. For these comparisons I'll ignore casualties and non-unique ship losses as much as possible because of the 'there'll always be enough for the plot' effect (although I'd also observe we generally see the Imperium hurting for resources and forces far more than its enemies, however many mook get fed to the grinder).

 

 

Damocles: Stalemate.

Sorry, but 'try to take Imperial world back from the Tau, goes badly, ends in Exterminatus' isn't really a 'stalemate' imo. The Imperium loses it's strategic world, and the Imperium are made to look like a bunch of chumps (especially the RG and WS iirc). What do the Tau lose?  Aun'va dies, but is immediately replaced by an AI so nobody notices.

 

 

Fenris: Magnus loses the war on Fenris, a single no-name character dies and then the Crimson King accomplishes his master plan that the good guys didn't know about but doesn't directly have an impact on the present (this is the default state for Chaos "victories" - they never get real wins).

What does Magnus lose? Nothing, and he gains his secret plan. What does the Imperium lose? Everything in the Fenris system gets wrecked, Midgardia's wiped out (and I'm unsure how much of Svellgard and Frostheim were left), the character they kill had been part of the fluff for the better part of 20 years. Did Magnus get a 100% success? No. Did the Imperials come off worse? I'd say absolutely yes.

 

 

That doesn't feel like a true win, it feels like an attempt by GW to give Chaos a victory without being willing to actually do any real damage to the Imperium.

I can sympathise with that sort of thing not feeling like a 'true' win. But it's still a win, and my point is the Imperium doesn't even get that.

 

 

Cadia: Abaddon is made to look like an idiot in the Gathering Storm 1 and wins by blowing up the planet, which he could have done right from the beginning

Can't say how much he's made to look like an idiot (but then, he wins, so how idiotic does that make the Imperials?). He loses a Blackstone. The Imperium loses the entire Cadian Gate (plus Creed and Kell (I know Creed isn't killed, but he hasn't popped back up yet to my knowledge)), and as a result of the Rift, a good chunk of the galaxy. Seems a pretty good trade for Abby imo.

 

 

Indomitus Crusade: Guilliman manages to turn what we are told is a lost cause into a new status quo with Primaris reinforcements being handed out literally everywhere to everybody. You even have chapters that were on the brink of extinction given new life.

So the best the Imperium can get is to go from 'absolutely screwed' to 'really bad status quo' (which may end up being pretty short lived to boot). How much territory did the Crusade fail to reclaim? Seems to be a fair bunch given both Imperium Nihilius, that's apparently still getting overrun by Chaos, plus the plethora of worlds not reclaimed or destroyed, including the loss of relatively prominent fluff world like Iax. What did Chaos lose to this 'resurgent' Imperium? What established (ie. not created by the Indomtius fluff to be killed off) characters died. What major territory did they lose?

 

The best Imperial showing of the examples? Sure, I'll give you that. But looking at the full Crusade and its aftermath, Chaos lost nothing of consequence and don't even seem to have slowed their general attack on the Imperium. They're still massively better off than they were pre 13th Crusade and Rift. Hell, if lexicanum is to believed, the Plague Wars at Ultramar didn't end because of Gulliman winning, but Mortarion having to withdraw to defend the Scourge Stars from the other Chaos Gods. Now, that's kinda cool, and definitely in character for Chaos, but does somewhat undermine any claims of true Imperial success on that front.

 

 

Abaddon doesn't always win. What ADB & the BL supplement (admittedly with his guidance) have tried to place emphasis on is that Abaddon's crusade goals were not to burst through to Terra in a single attempt. It was this misconception that led many in the fanbase to label him a failure. Even in the BL supplement not all of his crusades are successes.

You say that, but don't provide an example. When has Abby ever properly lost? The older BL supplement (was there one in 7th? I've only got the first Codex Black Legion) certainly presents all the Black Crusades as successes (with dubious reasoning imo), but the narrative was pretty explicit these were successful operations.

 

While I kinda doubt either side will get a true win out of Vigilus, I stand by the view that if one side does, it should be the Imperium.


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#35
PeteySödes

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SW codex basically comes out and says the signs and prophesies all point that the Wolftime is upon us sooooo......

 

Really though, I get the sentiment about the Imperials getting wailed on a bit. Wolves got riggedy-wrecked with not a lot of resolution as far as story goes, still more q's than a's. Plus Cadia etc. That said, everybody im sure feels that way. Im interested to see how it shakes out in the next few years now that the story is truly moving forward.

 

Also how dare you sir!

 

 

  • Fenris: Magnus loses the war on Fenris, a single no-name character dies and then the Crimson King accomplishes his master plan that the good guys didn't know about but doesn't directly have an impact on the present (this is the default state for Chaos "victories" - they never get real wins).

 

 

Egil Ironolf (RiP) was the man, apologize!



#36
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I think Abaddon taking Vigilus will please fans, as will the return of Russ to take it back lol
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#37
Marshal Rohr

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Using the Damocles and Fenris supplements is dumb, every bit of lore they added was trash. From floating defensive walls, to Fenris have populated planets in the system besides Fenris, to Wulfen, to one hundred white scars on motor cycles engaging a brigade level armored force of the Tau. Its as bad as the Indomitus and Primaris fluff.


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#38
Jarl Caldersson

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I'll just copy in my post fgrom the Abaddon thread since this is a better place for it:
 
I absolutely hope Vigilus falls so we reintroduce the elements from Dark Imperium, that whole plotline feels a bit like a side track right now. 
 
I'm also a bit sad that we got a new Calgar as I hoped that Abaddon could actually get to kill off a significant character in his return and Calgar would've been a perfect candidate IMO. I realise some people would've been massively upset but I don't like that every main charcter ever is safe, isn't actual consequences the reason people love Game of Thrones? But, now that they've made a new Calgar model he won't die.
 
Maybe he gets to off someone else but then I'm sure that character didn't end up truly dying and just gets "primarisised" instead.. Let's buck the trend and move the plot forward, Vigilus ending up being Cadia 2.0 just negates the impact of Cadias fall IMO.


I don't think Calgar is going to die. However there is artwork of BL fighting BA. So I am going to think Dante is "killed" and brought back as a Primaris. There also just happens to be a couple other older model characters on Vigilus. Ragnar for example, who could also be "killed" and made Primaris.


....and then Roboute will come, with nee Primaris (rest of wave 2) and save everyone. Primaris will be hailed as hero and roboute as emperor.

That's what everyone wants right? Roboute to be the hero of the day every :cuss time.
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#39
Marshal Rohr

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I don't want that, I want this to be Abaddon coming in hot like Nagash did in AoS being a big threat to everyone, everywhere.


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#40
Frater Antodeniel

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I prefer the idea that Vigilus fall, so that the gap in the great rift close, and that Imperium Nihilus is cut-off from the Imperium Terra side.

 

About Vigilus, the Imperium Terra and the Imperium Nihilus, GW still have a number of "basic" things to explain, like how the great rift work, does it simply block everything, or does it more likely WARP things that travel throught it.

 

I do like the idea that the Warp is an Ocean bathed in fog, the Great Rift a powerfull current cutting two part of it, while planet/systems are islands, and the Astronomican is a powerfull lighthouse that help guide the vessels that navigate the turbulent currents of the ocean. As for Imperium Nihilus, those worlds on the other side of the great rift, the current may trap those vessels that try to pass, while passages may open from limited amount of times. Plus the fog on the Nihilus side may be heavier, so that the light of the Astronomican is more difficult to see for the Navigators.


Edited by Frater Antodeniel, 07 March 2019 - 04:13 PM.

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#41
Triszin

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Vigilus falls:

 

Terran side of the rift becomes slightly more imperial truth. via cawl, marines, and updating tech.

 

Nihiulus: becomes hyper religious, Sisters of Battle ranks are swelling. as its the sisters, and astra militarum in Nihilus that are the saving grace for what few imperial strong holds remain.

- Que: Sisters of battle update

- Que: it is revealed that all of the black templars are imperium nihilus, A religious Zealot Dorn is leading the templars.

 

Nihilus survives through faith, and worship of the emperor, creating "saints" that assist it warding off the deamonic incursions, and saints that become mini beacons of the astronomicon

Terra side survives through science


Edited by Triszin, 07 March 2019 - 05:38 PM.

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#42
dice4thedicegod

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That would be great. Two distinct versions of the imperium, with different flavor codexes and plenty of friction in the fluff, without another all out civil war.

And chaos being a threat that actually gets straight forward wins (rather than just achieving Rube Goldberg style hidden plots)
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#43
bolvar

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I'll just copy in my post fgrom the Abaddon thread since this is a better place for it:
 
I absolutely hope Vigilus falls so we reintroduce the elements from Dark Imperium, that whole plotline feels a bit like a side track right now. 
 
I'm also a bit sad that we got a new Calgar as I hoped that Abaddon could actually get to kill off a significant character in his return and Calgar would've been a perfect candidate IMO. I realise some people would've been massively upset but I don't like that every main charcter ever is safe, isn't actual consequences the reason people love Game of Thrones? But, now that they've made a new Calgar model he won't die.
 
Maybe he gets to off someone else but then I'm sure that character didn't end up truly dying and just gets "primarisised" instead.. Let's buck the trend and move the plot forward, Vigilus ending up being Cadia 2.0 just negates the impact of Cadias fall IMO.


I don't think Calgar is going to die. However there is artwork of BL fighting BA. So I am going to think Dante is "killed" and brought back as a Primaris. There also just happens to be a couple other older model characters on Vigilus. Ragnar for example, who could also be "killed" and made Primaris.


....and then Roboute will come, with nee Primaris (rest of wave 2) and save everyone. Primaris will be hailed as hero and roboute as emperor.

That's what everyone wants right? Roboute to be the hero of the day every censored.gif time.

 

 

Jesus christ please no


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No. It's TEMPLARS! TEMPLARS YOU HEAR ME!?

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#44
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At this point, I don't care whether Vigilus falls or not. If it does, great. If not, I expect it.

 

But please, for the love of the Emperor, KEEP GUILLIMAN OUT OF THIS CONFLICT.

He does not need to be the hero of every major event! 


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#45
Tyriks

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Traitor's Hate/Angels Blade was a big loss for Chaos. They rerouted defenders from Baal, leaving it more vulnerable to Tyranid (which mattered not one bit), they killed a chaplain invented for the book, and made some BA fall to the Black Rage (all of whom were immediately replaced by Primaris).

In exchange, they got... Wiped out. The Crimson Slaughter actually might be an extinct entity at this point because of that campaign (they might come back but they were killed almost to a man). They didn't open a path to Terra like they wanted, they didn't even hold the system.

Secondly, if Fenris losing people on worlds that were never important before Wrath of Magnus counts as a loss, then Indomitus Crusade is a resounding Imperial victory.

Damocles is a mess, I agree with that. The Imperium should be able to steamroll an enemy that can't even warp travel just by outpacing them, but that's just a major design flaw with the Tau. That war was terribly written.

I really hope this campaign has consequences, like actual characters dying (on any side, not just Imperials). Not some guardsman introduced in Vigilus, but one or more established characters. They can keep their rules and models, just kill them in the fluff. It's absurd how easily they escape all the time.

#46
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I don't know what will happen with Vigilus, but I truly hope that chaos rolfstomps every guillimarine out there including Calgar.

 

With extra :cuss-ups and unexpected issues with the whole primaris thing that make them unstable and not reliable. A bloody pounding with contempt.


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No. It's TEMPLARS! TEMPLARS YOU HEAR ME!?

LALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!


#47
Iron Father Ferrum

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Yeah exactly. At the end of the day, this is a setting for a tabletop wargame - giving everybody the kind of true victories that people pine for just isn't a realistic expectation. We wouldn't have a setting left to play in. We're getting some sort of story progression now, and as for whether it amounts to anything good or is simply a rehash of old templates: the ball is in GW's court.


Hogwash. BattleTech has been swinging the pendulum of its factions the entirety of its life as a setting. Entire factions have been wiped put; some uniting, some fracturing into mini states. Crushing victories are won and lost in most of the major campaigns. Characters, even beloved one, die in both mundane and horrible ways. 40K *can* do this, GW just has to have the gumption to actually commit to doing it and *doing it well.*
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#48
Marshal Rohr

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I wouldn't want that kind of dynamic in 40k though, even though it works in Battletech. Imagine if Terra came under siege every few books or the Tau were wiped out. Looking no further than Brettonians and Tomb Kings can show you how crappy it can feel when your faction gets canned.


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#49
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Vigilus has little true bearing on whether Terra will be threatened in the short term, afaik. Presumably part of the Indomitus Crusade after breaking the siege at Vorlese was to break Chaos' hold at the other seven warp route points leading to Terra, and those worlds were likely subsequently fortified to a great degree, so ... you basically have 8 more Cadia-esque situations before you even get to the throneworld. 

 

Only real impact it has is the situation in the Imperium Nihilus, and evidently Abaddon and company have already been romping around there winning lots of loot, so...I guess there are some good stories involving Dante to be had.


Edited by Apothecary Vaddon, 07 March 2019 - 08:13 PM.


#50
Exilyth

Exilyth

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"Vigilus falls, nihulus dies."

- musings of the great scribe Garibus Gygaxius XVII, in "de exploratio xenos subterraneum: mausoleum terribus", also known as "adversus dominatus et divinitus".

          (Declared malleus extremis in 333M42 and banished from imperial libraries due to explicit descriptions of sorcery and warpcraft.)

 

 

How would nihilus survive without the light and guidance of the emperor? The astronomican can barely be seen through the rift as it is now - widening the rift would block it out completely! Ships would be unable to travel the warp without a navigational beacon - systems in the imperium nihilus would be isolated from each other, making them easier to conquer for chaos.

 

I must admit though: the "two empires" theory presented in this thread does sound like an interesting turn of events.

 

 

Hogwash. BattleTech has been swinging the pendulum of its factions the entirety of its life as a setting. Entire factions have been wiped put; some uniting, some fracturing into mini states. Crushing victories are won and lost in most of the major campaigns. Characters, even beloved one, die in both mundane and horrible ways. 40K *can* do this, GW just has to have the gumption to actually commit to doing it and *doing it well.*

 

Battletech is very human centric with no sentient aliens. The technology is the same for all factions (except for inner sphere vs. clams of course, but both sides have multiple factions for redundancy - and the gap lessens with recent advances in tech). When a faction in BT is destroyed, the faction as an entity ceases to exist (except for splinters), but the people mostly get integrated into whoever conquered them, e.g. mech variants will just show up under the new owner.

 

Factions in 40k tend to be incompatible biologically, technologically and culturally/socially. They would completely wipe each other out when given the chance, e.g. Tyranids just eat everything, imperials kill everyone not believing in the Emperor, chaos kill everyone for their gods, tau send auxilliaries to die for them, orks only live to crump stuff ...

 

If a faction in 40k gets destroyed, the species and tech will be gone from the universe. And factions which do not exist do not sell models - which makes it impossible to kill characters and/or destroy factions without making people angry.


Edited by Exilyth, 07 March 2019 - 08:33 PM.

WH40k: Astra Militarum: ~2500 Pts, Space Marines: ~2000 Pts, GSC: ~500 Pts

and if I had a camera, I'd post some pictures of them.





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