Vigilus Falls, What next?(Here be spoilers)

[Tyriks]

You can kill characters. Captain Tycho has been dead for ages and people still bought his model.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm not saying GW should kill factions. I'm saying GW should kill characters and give the factions some actual major victories. I want to see whole sectors change hands as one side punches through defensive lines or launches a surprise attack. We actually do get this from time to time in the novels, particularly the Gaunt's Ghosts ones, but I'd like to see these grand strategic moves represented on a larger scale.

[HandsWithLegs]

I'm really hoping the Lion shows up soon and gives Big Blue a piece of his mind. The tech he has (I cant remember the name of it off the top of my head) could help with jumping across the great rift, and with the Luther/fallen plot hook there could be some really cool stuff with them emerging on the far side of the rift and fighting for both the Imperium and chaos. I could even see the fallen legion coming into vigilus and messing things up for both factions and making it so nobody wins

[Panzer]

I wouldn't want that kind of dynamic in 40k though, even though it works in Battletech. Imagine if Terra came under siege every few books or the Tau were wiped out. Looking no further than Brettonians and Tomb Kings can show you how crappy it can feel when your faction gets canned.

That's only a problem when GW keeps having each campaign be "either nobody wins or half of the setting ends" types.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Yeah exactly. At the end of the day, this is a setting for a tabletop wargame - giving everybody the kind of true victories that people pine for just isn't a realistic expectation. We wouldn't have a setting left to play in. We're getting some sort of story progression now, and as for whether it amounts to anything good or is simply a rehash of old templates: the ball is in GW's court.

Hogwash. BattleTech has been swinging the pendulum of its factions the entirety of its life as a setting. Entire factions have been wiped put; some uniting, some fracturing into mini states. Crushing victories are won and lost in most of the major campaigns. Characters, even beloved one, die in both mundane and horrible ways. 40K *can* do this, GW just has to have the gumption to actually commit to doing it and *doing it well.*

 

 

What a ridiculous comparison and criticism of my post when, in reality, you're agreeing with me on 90% of my points made on the previous page. Not to mention the fact that Battletech and 40k are nothing alike beyond their both being sci-fi wargames. By noting that you don't want GW to kill factions you yourself inadvertently note the shortcomings of your comparison. Games Workshop have always stated that this is a setting, not a story; this has been backed up on this very forum by their own authors. Progression is one thing, seismic changes are another. Note also "the kind of true victories that people pine for". 40k has certain pillars, be they characters, worlds, etc, that really can't (or won't) be touched.

 

 

I'm not saying GW should kill factions. I'm saying GW should kill characters and give the factions some actual major victories. I want to see whole sectors change hands as one side punches through defensive lines or launches a surprise attack. We actually do get this from time to time in the novels, particularly the Gaunt's Ghosts ones, but I'd like to see these grand strategic moves represented on a larger scale.

 

 

I don't think anybody on this topic is disagreeing with you. Rohr posted as much - the Forge World approach - on an earlier page. I would enjoy an Orpheus style approach where GW create or flesh out new sandboxes with real consequences. The Battletech style, on the other hand, would not work and would undermine the importance of multiple pillars of the setting, which GW have done enough damage to on their own in the past. Gaunt's Ghosts is another example of the sandbox approach, because nothing that happens in that series really matters in the broader setting, let's be real. This is what I am referring to; when I talk about "true victories" and seismic change I think a final victory on Terra, Armageddon, etc. I have no issue with changes being made elsewhere.

 

You're spot on that GW has a problem with killing characters though, but this isn't something I think they'll improve at. 40k is far larger and more beloved than something like Battletech with more weight attached to its characters. The Tycho example given above is an oddity because he was developed from battle reports, and was not originally intended to be a part of the fiction. Fans weren't attached to him for decades as a playable character before having him taken away from them. Characters like Calgar (example) have been around since the genesis of the setting. Perhaps GW should be a bit braver and kill some off, but I can understand why they are hesitant to do so. Wouldn't mind seeing them do it if it was done well (GW has earned little faith in this regard).

 

Summary: Warhammer 40k is a setting not a story. GW should focus on creating sandboxes within said setting for us to explore. Simple.

[Lord Raven 19]

Vigilus Defiant mentioned the gellerpox is headed for terra (and ,sorry Ishagu, hopefully macragge as well).

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

 

I'll just copy in my post fgrom the Abaddon thread since this is a better place for it:

 

I absolutely hope Vigilus falls so we reintroduce the elements from Dark Imperium, that whole plotline feels a bit like a side track right now. 

 

I'm also a bit sad that we got a new Calgar as I hoped that Abaddon could actually get to kill off a significant character in his return and Calgar would've been a perfect candidate IMO. I realise some people would've been massively upset but I don't like that every main charcter ever is safe, isn't actual consequences the reason people love Game of Thrones? But, now that they've made a new Calgar model he won't die.

 

Maybe he gets to off someone else but then I'm sure that character didn't end up truly dying and just gets "primarisised" instead.. Let's buck the trend and move the plot forward, Vigilus ending up being Cadia 2.0 just negates the impact of Cadias fall IMO.

 

I don't think Calgar is going to die. However there is artwork of BL fighting BA. So I am going to think Dante is "killed" and brought back as a Primaris. There also just happens to be a couple other older model characters on Vigilus. Ragnar for example, who could also be "killed" and made Primaris.

....and then Roboute will come, with nee Primaris (rest of wave 2) and save everyone. Primaris will be hailed as hero and roboute as emperor.

That's what everyone wants right? Roboute to be the hero of the day every :cuss time.

 

Jesus christ please no

GW has recorded your vote. However BT falls under codex Marines so believes you actually meant you wanted Roboute to be the savior.

 

You answer has been filed under "make Roboute the new emperor". Thank you.

 

I hope my idea does not pass, however this is GW and their track record so far is such. I hope the Smurf get his teeth kicked by Abaddon. While he crawls away another loyalist primarch that is a better war God (pretty much any other loyalist) can come back

[NTaW]

You can kill characters. Captain Tycho has been dead for ages and people still bought his model.

I still remember when he died, it was such a shock but we all moved on. 15ish years later and he still has a model and two profiles worth of rules.

[chapter master 454]

I actually kind of agree with the idea of rotating out some characters. It does get to a point where 40k is now a soap opera of a select few characters with only a few "dying" only to reveal in the latest gossip magazine they are coming back as they were needing a break from the series.

 

Keep historic dataslates of the characters, a free thing where the models are still legal but GW starts to stop selling them and only doing limited runs of them every so often (as to stop prices rising too high). Lets move on and get new characters in. We have had talks of heroes of yore and yet these characters do not go into yore. Only REAL case of that is the salamanders chaplain Xavier and Crimson Fist Sergeant Cortez. Seriously, those two were straight up bad-asses (Cortez has some lore about him having broken each bone in his body once bar one of his toes).

 

Meanwhile, Ultramarines have the sum of emperor knows how many characters. Cassius, Tigerius and Calgar were all kind of mainstays and worked but then they got Telion (who should of been Raven Guard), Cronus (who should of been Iron Hands) and Captain of the 2nd company Cato Sicarius (who should never of been born!) while White scars only have Korsarro (without his bike...), Shrike actually had some progression to be fair (got a nice fat promotion to Chapter Master. I did love the captain angle but he was due for an upgrade) and He'Stan got thrown in because GW felt bad for offing Xavier. By all accounts, the joke "Codex: Ultramarines" is still painfully true in a lot of regards.

 

Black Templars barely get 2 or 3 (depends on if you count the Emperor's Champion) and even they are looking pretty dated (though I think Grimaldus can stay, he's kind of a badass from my memory while Helbrecht got ROASTED by Imotekh). Dark Angels and Blood Angels are fine as they have their own slew of characters thanks to not sharing a bunk with the Ultramarines but could do with some new blood coming in.

 

There is a LOT of background characters we have heard of but never seen put the front for no real reason other than they can't be bothered. I mean, we have proceeded what? 300-400 odd years now into the 41st millennium but SOMEHOW these characters remain (I mean...Cassius is apparently now the crown holder for oldest aged war-pensioner in 40k). Even the CUSTODES degrade over time, so naturally marines should in their time just die or possibly...I know this is a scary idea but what if they STEPPED DOWN? The Custodes get to, so why not marines? Not saying they go and become spies, but more like they become trainers like what Telion does but dedicated. It would be AWESOME to replace Telion with Calgar as the master of training the new scouts. Still a respected part of the chapter and council heeded as sternly as a dreadnoughts but just not calling the big shots anymore.

[bolvar]

 

 

 

I'll just copy in my post fgrom the Abaddon thread since this is a better place for it:

 

I absolutely hope Vigilus falls so we reintroduce the elements from Dark Imperium, that whole plotline feels a bit like a side track right now. 

 

I'm also a bit sad that we got a new Calgar as I hoped that Abaddon could actually get to kill off a significant character in his return and Calgar would've been a perfect candidate IMO. I realise some people would've been massively upset but I don't like that every main charcter ever is safe, isn't actual consequences the reason people love Game of Thrones? But, now that they've made a new Calgar model he won't die.

 

Maybe he gets to off someone else but then I'm sure that character didn't end up truly dying and just gets "primarisised" instead.. Let's buck the trend and move the plot forward, Vigilus ending up being Cadia 2.0 just negates the impact of Cadias fall IMO.

I don't think Calgar is going to die. However there is artwork of BL fighting BA. So I am going to think Dante is "killed" and brought back as a Primaris. There also just happens to be a couple other older model characters on Vigilus. Ragnar for example, who could also be "killed" and made Primaris.

....and then Roboute will come, with nee Primaris (rest of wave 2) and save everyone. Primaris will be hailed as hero and roboute as emperor.

That's what everyone wants right? Roboute to be the hero of the day every time.

 

Jesus christ please no

GW has recorded your vote. However BT falls under codex Marines so believes you actually meant you wanted Roboute to be the savior.

 

You answer has been filed under "make Roboute the new emperor". Thank you.

 

I hope my idea does not pass, however this is GW and their track record so far is such. I hope the Smurf get his teeth kicked by Abaddon. While he crawls away another loyalist primarch that is a better war God (pretty much any other loyalist) can come back

 

 

Let's hope that our lord and savior Guilliman arrives just in time to save Vigilus... Only to let Abbadon kick his ass, hitting him so hard that Cawl implodes and be ultimately saved by Dorn and every single son of Dorn in the galaxy in a reverse Iron Cage.

 

Then we get Codex: Last wall. Now with 0% primaris and 150% crusading sons of Dorn

[Bulwyf]

I think Vigilus should fall. Give Chaos a complete win for once. The result? Here comes Russ fresh from the Eye. He gets the Space Wolves going again and helps out RG fight off the Chaos at Terra. Chaos responds with Fulgrim showing up since we know he's already running around somewhere. The fluff keeps swapping wins that slowly brings out more primarchs on each side. We get those primarchs and new models on the table top. That is a complete win for us, the gamers.

[FlamingDeth]

"The universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed."

 

Just something printed at the beginning of all their rulebooks that I think GW is forgetting as they plot all their soap opera herohammer. Whatever they implement next in the story I want there to be bodies of people we actually know.

[D3L]

"The universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed."

 

Just something printed at the beginning of all their rulebooks that I think GW is forgetting as they plot all their soap opera herohammer. Whatever they implement next in the story I want there to be bodies of people we actually know.

 

yep, that's quote has not been true for over 3 years now, the downsizing of the setting has been accepted by the new player base, sadly

[Panzer]

Considering how few people are happy with how GW does those campaigns I really wouldn't say that people have been accepting it lol

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

"Vigilus falls, nihulus dies."

- musings of the great scribe Garibus Gygaxius XVII, in "de exploratio xenos subterraneum: mausoleum terribus", also known as "adversus dominatus et divinitus".

          (Declared malleus extremis in 333M42 and banished from imperial libraries due to explicit descriptions of sorcery and warpcraft.)

 

 

How would nihilus survive without the light and guidance of the emperor? The astronomican can barely be seen through the rift as it is now - widening the rift would block it out completely! Ships would be unable to travel the warp without a navigational beacon - systems in the imperium nihilus would be isolated from each other, making them easier to conquer for chaos.

 

I must admit though: the "two empires" theory presented in this thread does sound like an interesting turn of events.

 

 

I have a strong impression that Vigilus' importance is only because GW hypes it. It has no economic importance, because there is nearly no long distance (i.e. galaxy distance) trade - the only regular traffic on that scale are Black Ships. Its importance for navigation is only local - it is not a lighthouse for Imperium Nihilus. The Rift does not block the Astronomician, only dims it and most of IN relies on this dimmed light. So fall of Vigilus has nearly no meaning for travel in IN. It has no military importance if we think about the big picture. While travel elsewhere through the Rift is very dangerous and depends on, eeeh, "weather" in the Warp, we know that there exists 100% safe way of crossing the Rift whenever you want and wherever you want - Pariahs. If  a need for big reinforcement of one or other side of the Rift arises, all you have to do is grab those Sisters of Silence you befriended last Friday night and enjoy your ride.

I would love to see IN as a state falling apart into subsectors, the grip on Inquisition and other central institutions loosens, local empires are forged by Governors and SM chapters trying to keep what they can together in the name of the Emperor. I would love to see GW explore different ways in which every such sector tries to stay loyal and by necessity diverges from orthodoxy or to see them reject the Empire altogether. I would love to see differences between both sides of the Rift in terms of equipment and etc. (e.g. Primaris in the old Empire and only few of them in IN). But I think it''s not going to happen. The Rift did not stop Our Spiritual Liege from going wherever he wants (remember: SoS, Friday parties). It did not stop Primaris Marines from reaching every Chpater. EVERY CHAPTER. Even those crusading nearly outside of the galaxy. I mean, how? The whole IN lore is for now one big missed opportunity and i can't se how fall of Vigilus could change that.

[Lord Marshal]

Kell died in Fall of Cadia so there's definitely a - recent - precedent for it (although they seem to have a thing for using Karskin-geared standard bearers with power fists in their Guard art now?). Granted, he's a weird case because he was an extension of Creed rather than his own thing but that said, even Creed's gone MIA from the story.

 

The question is how willing GW will be to bruise Space Marines. The shrieking over a literally who Chapter Master dying to Shadowsun in Damocles was hysterical to say he was a nobody (which was only done so Shrike could get the job anyway).

[Triszin]

building on this more

 

Vigilus falls:

 

Terran side of the rift becomes slightly more imperial truth. via cawl, marines, and updating tech.

 

Nihiulus: becomes hyper religious, Sisters of Battle ranks are swelling. as its the sisters, and astra militarum in Nihilus that are the saving grace for what few imperial strong holds remain.

- Que: Sisters of battle update

- Que: minor scion tempestus/militarum update

- Que: it is revealed that all of the black templars are imperium nihilus, A religious Zealot Dorn is leading the templars.

 

 

 

Nihilus survives through faith, and worship of the emperor, creating "saints" that assist it warding off the deamonic incursions, and saints that become mini beacons of the astronomicon

Terra side survives through science

 

 

Nihilus is being attacked by dark mech

Que: dark mech on the nihilus side

 

Terran side: Ghaz new waagh targeting armegeddon, creates a need for black templar to reach proper Terran imperium. Sets Helbretch, Emperors champ (sigmund avatar), and Dorn VS Ghaz and The introduction of The Mad Primarch (angron)

 

The Rock appears missing no imperial has seen it on either side of the rift.

 

Tiamet nears completion

 

Roboute Negotiates a transport treaty with the TAU empire for passage through the nexus.

- Tau are losing there stuff, realizing a primarch is real.

- Rob agrees to assist them in fighting mortarian who is trying to claim the nexus. (and the tau are losing ground every day and losing millions of lives every week)

------------------------------------------------

 

The "Proto Primarch" gets release some how. He ends up becoming the "primarch" of the blood angels death company.

[Panzer]

 

 

Terran side of the rift becomes slightly more imperial truth. via cawl, marines, and updating tech.

 

I'd say the chances for that are becoming smaller by the day considering we're learning that the faith of the SoB is actually doing a lot to keep chaos at bay, Celestine being there and the AdMech not exactly being imperial truth either with their tech worship. Not to mention why would the side that can still see the beacon that is the god emperor himself become less religious all of a sudden? If anything they'd be the more religious ones.

[Triszin]

huh, didnt think about that.

 

The side without the astronomicon are forced to invent tech to protect themselves. would be neat.

[Sete]

Yep the martyred lady by Gav Thorpe confirms that faith and symbols have the power to keep daemons at bay, and by extension cardinal worlds keep the great rift at bay aswell.

[Tyriks]

Kell died in Fall of Cadia so there's definitely a - recent - precedent for it (although they seem to have a thing for using Karskin-geared standard bearers with power fists in their Guard art now?). Granted, he's a weird case because he was an extension of Creed rather than his own thing but that said, even Creed's gone MIA from the story.

 

The question is how willing GW will be to bruise Space Marines. The shrieking over a literally who Chapter Master dying to Shadowsun in Damocles was hysterical to say he was a nobody (which was only done so Shrike could get the job anyway).

I've never seen anyone complain that he was killed. People complain that he was killed in a way that made him look like a rookie on his first day on the job. He was so totally outclassed that it made the Raven Guard look like idiots. Space marine characters are heroes who deserve to die heroically.

[Slasher956]

Like with an assasins round through the head whilst fighting orks on their home plant?

 

[Panzer]

Nah people just can't deal with a T'au Commander who's on Chapter Master level herself outsmarting a Raven Guard Chapter Master in his own game.

[Triszin]

Nah people just can't deal with a T'au Commander who's on Chapter Master level herself outsmarting a Raven Guard Chapter Master in his own game.

I mean, the issue was the writing in damocles. I viewed the main events as happening, just how they happened as false.

"perfect and perfectly" were used to describe every other taus actions.

 

IM perfectly fine with a tau commander killing a chapter master. Just, the writing needs to be good for both sides, instead of cartoon level bafoonery.

[Sete]

White Scars on Damocles could be resumed in the following sentence:

"Gotta go faster."

 

 

Tau are outflanking? Gotta go faster!

Tau are setting up gun lines? Gotta go faster!

Tau killed RG chapter master? Gotta go faster!

 

I haven't read Vigilus book 1, so don't now the quality but I can say for sure one I loved. Siege of Vraks. If the main studio could pull these types of campaigns off, everybody would win.