Vigilus Falls, What next?(Here be spoilers)

[Panzer]

 

Nah people just can't deal with a T'au Commander who's on Chapter Master level herself outsmarting a Raven Guard Chapter Master in his own game.

I mean, the issue was the writing in damocles. I viewed the main events as happening, just how they happened as false.

"perfect and perfectly" were used to describe every other taus actions.

 

IM perfectly fine with a tau commander killing a chapter master. Just, the writing needs to be good for both sides, instead of cartoon level bafoonery.

 

 

Yeah the writing was just overall bad. I didn't enjoy anything of it except for Longstrike and Pask trading shots but only because battles between tank commanders isn't something we usually see lol

Oh and Darkstrider tracking an assassin was nice I guess.

[chapter master 454]

Tau are another group who need to get some serious character arcs sorted. Far'Sight is fine because we can ether go with "the magic sword of life stealing" or the theory of the original is long dead but many have come form to take up the mantle (since after all, Far'Sight is a nickname. Not his actual name).

 

Aun'Va got iced hilariously by a Culexus and is now Tu-Pacing around the universe. Suppose it is better than the Drukari pilot who got High Nooned by a vindicare.

 

Shadowsun needs to be moved on. She currently only remains because of the...you know exactly what so not even going to bother with that. Not the issue at hand, just another dated Special Character who needs to move into history (as she does have a fairly important place in history. She gave Shrike a promotion!).

DarkStrider is neat and can stay a while longer. I like the cut of his jib. "No Shas'O I didn't get the order to retreat and cease further attacks. Must of been some interference with the comms"

Aun'Shi is cool though he is old so maybe move him to historic as well by stating he actually decided to pack it in fully now (explained as the Empire not wanting to lose another high profile etheral).

LongStrike just needs moved to Bork'An...can we seriously stop putting the tank aces into the "poster child" faction for no emperor's sake reason. Pask is in Cadian...Wouldn't armageddon make more sense? Cronus in Ultramarines...Iron Hands. Longstrike would fit Bork'An (especially with his experimental suit).

 

As I said earlier, there needs to be a character program to begin moving older characters into a "historic" state where they are still legal and usable (free datasheets) but no longer considered part of the current story. Bring in new blood who deserves some light. Heck, would give them a great vehicle to get more primaris in which is what they want to do, instead of crowbarring the old into new.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Problem with the Tau is that aren't they supposed to be short lived, like humans maybe shorter. Except it's been 500 years since most of these characters were introduced. Humans have the rejuvenating machines but Tau do not. So in theory Tau need a whole new line of characters.

 

Then again this is all really off topic.

 

 

With Roboute and Abaddon having the same base style, it is inevitable that they have a show down. To my hatred we know Guilliman won't be killed, and Calgar just got a new model, which means Smurfs will go unscathed. However as I said earlier there is characters with older models on or soon to be on Vigilus, Ragnar for sure, someone on FB said Shrike is there, IH have no character, and Dante is probably nearby. So that means that probably every other chapter will take the hit.

 

I do not think Vigilus will fall completely, but be divided like Armageddon. Allowing all factions to have their own piece of the fight.

[Bryan Blaire]

I would love to see IN as a state falling apart into subsectors, the grip on Inquisition and other central institutions loosens, local empires are forged by Governors and SM chapters trying to keep what they can together in the name of the Emperor. I would love to see GW explore different ways in which every such sector tries to stay loyal and by necessity diverges from orthodoxy or to see them reject the Empire altogether.

So you want to see the Imperium Nihilus be... how the Imperium is?

 

“...[T]he exact number of worlds within the Imperium is not precisely known. Given the immense distances, poor communications, and the volatile nature of the galaxy itself, any attempt at a census would be obsolete before it was finished. To ease the difficulties of governing such a sprawling empire, the Imperium is divided into five segmentums, which in turn are broken down into numerous sectors and sub-sectors. Some Imperial worlds are clustered around relatively stable warp translation points, often branching out from key hub planets to form tightly knit alliances of trade and mutual protection, such as the Realm of Ultramar or the systems surrounding Terra. The majority of inhabited worlds, however, are separated by immense voids. Isolation and varied environments ensure a wide range of cultures and levels of technological advancement, but so long as the Imperial Tithe is paid – a charge on manpower, manufacturing and psykers levied upon every colonised planet – worlds are largely left to self-govern.”

The idea of a "grip from a central institution" is laughable, and even the Inquisition is not a single monolithic operating entity, it has its own internal elements that fight within it. There are a lot of times that impression gets lost, even in GW's own writings (which tend to be so broad as to not accurately account for it), but there's no real "central control" by an "Imperial Government" in 40K - the fringe worlds of the Imperium that aren't disappearing may only be receiving edicts from one of the High Lords a full century after it was made, and only 10 or 20 years later receive another edict only issued 25 years ago due to the flux of the Warp.

 

Even the Imperial Tithe may take decades (or longer) to enforce because the local governor decides to withhold some part of it or totally go it alone (possibly even invading nearby worlds he needs something from to ensure his people make it) as the records of non-payment filter through the local Administratum bureaucracy to a communication connection to a local hub where it might get sorted and you hope it doesn't get lost, out to the sub-sector bureau where it may not get filed as important because their planet is dealing with a food shortage or a Chaos invasion/cult uprising/etc. Once it finally gets tagged as needing to get passed on, it goes back into the various communication mechanisms, then up to the Sector managing entity (which may have its own efficiency issues), catalogued and sorted and possibly analyzed to realize that the missing Tithe isn't even the biggest issue the Sector has to focus on right now, so it has to wait a couple of years for processing, but it's in the pretty important queue, so it eventually makes it out to be communicated to the Administratum HQ on Terra. There it might get shunted to a mid-level importance queue because it's from a Sector determined to be a backwater by some cogitator or servitor or even a real live boy or girl, and it has to compete with the other reports of the same thing from other places within the queue for recognition, and there's still the off chance that some sub-sector governor or maybe even an Administratum bureaucrat hates a planetary governor and concocts a similar story about him, so since the Administratum can't know for sure, now we have to dispatch out the Forensic Accounting Inquisitor, and he might not even go to the right planet because some scribe left off a digit or a letter from the planet's name, or it's one of the thirty Midas Vs in the Imperium, etc.

 

Even the Ecclesiarchy is not a true single monolithic entity - it's all linked by the Cult of the Emperor, and that rules everything, but on different worlds, the practiced faith might look very different, and as long as it's not developed into a totally different religion, then it's accepted. The BRB once again says this:

“THE HOLY MISSION

The servants of the Ecclesiarchy are fanatical in their quest to spread their religion. Given the size of the galaxy, the random nature of warp storm isolation and the widely varied levels of cultural and technological advancement within the Imperium, the Adeptus Ministorum has found many belief systems already established on planets they visited for the first time. This was not an impediment, for the Ecclesiarchy had become adept at assimilating all manner of creeds into the Cult Imperialis – the worship of the Emperor. This might mean erecting great cathedrals to impress hardened hive-dwellers, or teaching the hunting tribes on feral worlds that the sun god they worshipped was in fact the glorious light of the Emperor. The nuance of how the people bowed before the Master of Mankind was not as important as the act itself. For many centuries the Ecclesiarchy was content to play the long game. Their strategy, over time, reined in the more barbaric customs and gradually they usurped complete religious control.”

So as we can see, they have "complete religious control," but they are formed of a multitude of belief types, as long as it is the worship of the Emperor in some acceptable form. It may be decades between local parishioners seeing a minister from one of the core belief worlds, or even the Sector governing world, but as long as they are within the bounds of acceptability, they are left alone.

 

I'd love to see GW explore this more as well (because even in BL text, it seems rare to have something other than the general type of the core ideas), but that won't stop any of that from simply being how the Imperium is.

[Panzer]

Problem with the Tau is that aren't they supposed to be short lived, like humans maybe shorter. Except it's been 500 years since most of these characters were introduced. Humans have the rejuvenating machines but Tau do not. So in theory Tau need a whole new line of characters.

 

Then again this is all really off topic.

 

 

With Roboute and Abaddon having the same base style, it is inevitable that they have a show down. To my hatred we know Guilliman won't be killed, and Calgar just got a new model, which means Smurfs will go unscathed. However as I said earlier there is characters with older models on or soon to be on Vigilus, Ragnar for sure, someone on FB said Shrike is there, IH have no character, and Dante is probably nearby. So that means that probably every other chapter will take the hit.

 

I do not think Vigilus will fall completely, but be divided like Armageddon. Allowing all factions to have their own piece of the fight.

 

Yeah they are but most characters have something going on to make them more or less immortal.

Aun'Va is dead but exists as fake hologram to please the masses.

Shadowsun and Kais are put in stasis when there's no huge battle going on.

Farsight has his lifeforce stealing sword.

(not gonna list the rest of Farsights Eight, but they all have something going on be it either having successors with the same name, being AI, being basically a Dreadnought and so on).

Only Darkstrider, Longstrike and Aun'Shi don't have an explanation for why they should still be around ... but then again that goes for most non-Marine characters in 40k so I'm not too upset about it.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

 

I would love to see IN as a state falling apart into subsectors, the grip on Inquisition and other central institutions loosens, local empires are forged by Governors and SM chapters trying to keep what they can together in the name of the Emperor. I would love to see GW explore different ways in which every such sector tries to stay loyal and by necessity diverges from orthodoxy or to see them reject the Empire altogether.

So you want to see the Imperium Nihilus be... how the Imperium is?

 

 

Please excuse me for not citing your whole post, but I don’t want to spam the thread. You are perfectly aware that even in the rulebook the grand narration about the Imperium is not told in a consistent way. We've seen the central government, whatever it is, fight against democracies, so the cultural diversity of the empire apparently has its limits and there exists a preferred model – even though it makes little sense when one thinks about other parts of fluff, some of which you cited. Also, we should add to that how different types of worlds are presented in the rulebook. One gets impression (a false one as we know from different sources) that all imperial worlds are similar, that population is similarly enslaved everywhere with agriworlds across the galaxy being literal deathcamps. There are also sufficient examples of coordination on greater scale, religious wars and so on. One should also bear in mind, that even today, centralization does not mean that office worker X of some local department in village Y consults minister on his every step or that said minister is interested what happens to the said worker X in department Y nor that he supervises that worker X. I am not trying to argue that  Imperium is a monolith nor that High Lords toy with micromanagement nor that it is possible to effectively govern the galaxy in 40k realities, because it clearly isn’t. I am simply saying that the picture is not that one sided.  

All what my previous post intended to say was, that administrative inertia, armed infighting and superficial unity should be exploited to the extreme in Imperium Nihilus and that in the present fluff there are things which instead of stressing the division and conforming to administrative realities of the old Imperium, make them superficial (and I still think that spread of Primaris marines is a good example of something contradictory to the rest of fluff).  I wanted to say that any pretence of higher control in IN should be dropped. The need for this is even greater, when we have RG smurfing around, state-building as he always did (Codex Imperialis), telling everyone what to do (Baal). I want Imperium Nihilus to STAY what Imperium is and bring it a step further.

[Aqui]

Anyone remember that Lady Malys and Vect have concerns about Khaine's Gate? And the fact its supposedly cracking? Could be another thing for the Imperium to have to deal with. Nids, GSC, Tau, Chaos, the Imperium being cut into at least two pieces, and now that (assuming GW do something with it, of course)...

[Doctor Perils]

I hadn't heard about that no - according to lexicanum

the gate has already fractured and let loose the daemons. Slaanesh vs Drukhari battlebox?

[Bryan Blaire]

You are perfectly aware that even in the rulebook the grand narration about the Imperium is not told in a consistent way. We've seen the central government, whatever it is, fight against democracies, so the cultural diversity of the empire apparently has its limits and there exists a preferred model – even though it makes little sense when one thinks about other parts of fluff, some of which you cited. Also, we should add to that how different types of worlds are presented in the rulebook. One gets impression (a false one as we know from different sources) that all imperial worlds are similar, that population is similarly enslaved everywhere with agriworlds across the galaxy being literal deathcamps. There are also sufficient examples of coordination on greater scale, religious wars and so on. One should also bear in mind, that even today, centralization does not mean that office worker X of some local department in village Y consults minister on his every step or that said minister is interested what happens to the said worker X in department Y nor that he supervises that worker X. I am not trying to argue that  Imperium is a monolith nor that High Lords toy with micromanagement nor that it is possible to effectively govern the galaxy in 40k realities, because it clearly isn’t. I am simply saying that the picture is not that one sided.  

All what my previous post intended to say was, that administrative inertia, armed infighting and superficial unity should be exploited to the extreme in Imperium Nihilus and that in the present fluff there are things which instead of stressing the division and conforming to administrative realities of the old Imperium, make them superficial (and I still think that spread of Primaris marines is a good example of something contradictory to the rest of fluff).  I wanted to say that any pretence of higher control in IN should be dropped. The need for this is even greater, when we have RG smurfing around, state-building as he always did (Codex Imperialis), telling everyone what to do (Baal). I want Imperium Nihilus to STAY what Imperium is and bring it a step further.

I definitely agree that GW needs to get away from what I see as basically short-cut writing in the Codexes, and even the BL books to a large extent, where they simply leave most of the functioning parts of a world in the background, leaving it to our assumptions/personal interpretation on how things are working. I think it's because at the end of the day, they want to write about the wars and the personal level fighting, but the grander issues are often left behind, unless it impacts the story. It doesn't seem like most BL books even show us the events leading up to the war/fighting, which in my mind would change or effect how it came to be and how they are fighting. An uprising where they converted the local high priests to a Chaos cult and assassinated the governor, but failed to convert the local IG general, should feel different to one where the sub-governor had the governor killed and had the IG in his back pocket.

 

I think you are right in that there is a standard mode of operation for planetary rule - the governorship - and GW defaults to that every time it seems like, but even the underlayer of rule, whether it be a council of the eldest of the tribes or a oligarchy of interested commerce guilders or something else, should affect how the planet functions in some way. We aren't shown that very often, and I think the stories lose a little bit because of that.

 

I'm not sure I agree that all agriworlds are death camps, I think that at least one BL book has shown us one that is almost idyllic.

 

And honestly, that's likely why we aren't shown the nitty gritty of planetary, system, sub-sector, and sector governance and situation, so GW and BL authors never feel tied down to a previous depiction, or statements in a Codex - that way they can keep the "everyone has a sandbox" concept without having to tread too closely to the "need a retcon every time" for a new Edition, etc. There's also some of their self-imposed authorship rules (believe that ADB has talked about those here before), such as not showing an innocent's suffering, no/limited overly graphic/florid depictions of gore, etc.

 

It would be nice if we got a look at how bad the overall conditions of the Imperium Nihilus were really getting though, how many inhabited worlds really have the capabilities to go it alone or with limited support, and what humanity is resorting to for survival.

[chapter master 454]

I agree with the thing we need to establish some ground level stuff here. I don't buy that every world is a hellscape and every hive so squalid it makes even our worst living conditions bliss, I don't agree that every governor is a greedy self-absorbed individual and that all planets are just not a great place to live.

 

It was always something I noticed: within the universe of 40k, War is the only place where things seem...functional to an extent and makes sense. Then you look at any sense depicting ANYTHING relating to living places it is always just walls, lights and iconography. Yea they have maps but nothing ground level. In fact the closest we have to anything resembling a reason area is the depiction of the massive causeway on Terra (can't remember the name, primarch statues flank it I believe). However somehow no single person in 40k has a car of any kind, no person owns their own home (not even governors, they just live in a palace or some other grandiose structure they don't own really), no talk of moving around planets. I get war is a constant thing in 40k and is kinda the thing of the universe...but I would enjoy just a few pieces to contrast against the death korps flattening another hive city with artillery or space marines doing heroic things against darkness. I get grim dark and enjoy it but we do need some contrast.

 

Still the most powerful thing in a novel I read for 40k was from Titanicus. The PDF guardswoman, Samstag, comes home after the most horrifying experience. She was a rank and file and on multiple occassions should of died. Just another death to the trillions in 40k but somehow...this guardswoman and her squad manage to not only survive a titan war and mechanicus mini-schism but also get a massive honour and praise for rescuing a warlord titan Princeps. However on her return finds out her husband was executed for resisting arrest over a misunderstanding on what was going on. She was out there, in the hellscape where thousands died from anything and everything while her husband was safe in the city (he was a dock worker who MOVED to the planet, she was allowed to come along as long as she served in the PDF Tertiary forces) but yet...she survived and he died.

A brilliant moment of light...smothered by the grim dark of 40k beautifully. Not over the head "it is all dark, nothing light". We got hope...she should of been happy...snatched away by a cruel twist of fate.

Also want to bring up how it seems Princeps for Reavers and Warlords were odd in that book or is it that Dan took some interesting liberties. In the book, those class of titan princeps had to be put into special caskets that mounted into the titan to connect to it where as Warhound princeps didn't get that "luxury" (as one princeps of a warhound comments) and were just "jacked in" (lack of better phrase). However the Warlord Titan model (and I believe reaver model too) both show the princeps being simply plugged in akin to what the warhound princeps were from the novel. Any side notes on that? (though again, it shows the liberties novelists have to take at times since I am not sure there was any lore relating to that matter at the time he wrote Titanicus).

[CaptainMarsh]

I hadn't heard about that no - according to lexicanum

the gate has already fractured and let loose the daemons. Slaanesh vs Drukhari battlebox?

This happened in Gathering Storm, IIRC.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

 

You are perfectly aware that even in the rulebook the grand narration about the Imperium is not told in a consistent way. We've seen the central government, whatever it is, fight against democracies, so the cultural diversity of the empire apparently has its limits and there exists a preferred model – even though it makes little sense when one thinks about other parts of fluff, some of which you cited. Also, we should add to that how different types of worlds are presented in the rulebook. One gets impression (a false one as we know from different sources) that all imperial worlds are similar, that population is similarly enslaved everywhere with agriworlds across the galaxy being literal deathcamps. There are also sufficient examples of coordination on greater scale, religious wars and so on. One should also bear in mind, that even today, centralization does not mean that office worker X of some local department in village Y consults minister on his every step or that said minister is interested what happens to the said worker X in department Y nor that he supervises that worker X. I am not trying to argue that  Imperium is a monolith nor that High Lords toy with micromanagement nor that it is possible to effectively govern the galaxy in 40k realities, because it clearly isn’t. I am simply saying that the picture is not that one sided.  

All what my previous post intended to say was, that administrative inertia, armed infighting and superficial unity should be exploited to the extreme in Imperium Nihilus and that in the present fluff there are things which instead of stressing the division and conforming to administrative realities of the old Imperium, make them superficial (and I still think that spread of Primaris marines is a good example of something contradictory to the rest of fluff).  I wanted to say that any pretence of higher control in IN should be dropped. The need for this is even greater, when we have RG smurfing around, state-building as he always did (Codex Imperialis), telling everyone what to do (Baal). I want Imperium Nihilus to STAY what Imperium is and bring it a step further.

. It doesn't seem like most BL books even show us the events leading up to the war/fighting, which in my mind would change or effect how it came to be and how they are fighting. An uprising where they converted the local high priests to a Chaos cult and assassinated the governor, but failed to convert the local IG general, should feel different to one where the sub-governor had the governor killed and had the IG in his back pocket.

 

.

 

I'm not sure I agree that all agriworlds are death camps, I think that at least one BL book has shown us one that is almost idyllic.

 

 

 

 

 

Agri-worlds - i was referring exclusively to the rulebook and how it oversimplifies things (page 33).

 

As to outbreaks of wars I think that I liked the FW's Badab War most, where we see how local rivalities, hybris, envy and greed can escalate in an unexpected way to a full scale military conflict involving a few Marines Chapters (each with different reasons for participating ). But yes, it's completely different level of narration than most BL.

 

 

 

It was always something I noticed: within the universe of 40k, War is the only place where things seem...functional to an extent and makes sense. Then you look at any sense depicting ANYTHING relating to living places it is always just walls, lights and iconography. Yea they have maps but nothing ground level. In fact the closest we have to anything resembling a reason area is the depiction of the massive causeway on Terra (can't remember the name, primarch statues flank it I believe). However somehow no single person in 40k has a car of any kind, no person owns their own home (not even governors, they just live in a palace or some other grandiose structure they don't own really), no talk of moving around planets. I get war is a constant thing in 40k and is kinda the thing of the universe...but I would enjoy just a few pieces to contrast against the death korps flattening another hive city with artillery or space marines doing heroic things against darkness. I get grim dark and enjoy it but we do need some contrast.

 

Also want to bring up how it seems Princeps for Reavers and Warlords were odd in that book or is it that Dan took some interesting liberties. In the book, those class of titan princeps had to be put into special caskets that mounted into the titan to connect to it where as Warhound princeps didn't get that "luxury" (as one princeps of a warhound comments) and were just "jacked in" (lack of better phrase). However the Warlord Titan model (and I believe reaver model too) both show the princeps being simply plugged in akin to what the warhound princeps were from the novel. Any side notes on that? (though again, it shows the liberties novelists have to take at times since I am not sure there was any lore relating to that matter at the time he wrote Titanicus).

 

Fort sure "civilians" are underepresented in the novels, even those surrounding Necromunda do not give us representative picture of a hive (leaving aside that they recently put every faction into this planet, aside from Necrons and T'au). But for most part it is simply not epic enough to make it into BL. Even the Vigilus we are discussing now has those Pauper Priences who use dissatisfaction among the population, but doesn't explore the subject in depth.

 

The Titans, well. In theory, interacting with stron Machine Spirits leaves a mark on humans. For this reason Imperial Knights are so , ekhem, knightly. Not because they are from feudal worlds, but because Knight's Machine Spirit have strongly imprinted loyalty, duty etc. The same happens with Principes and Titans. Prolonged interaction creates a bond and  impaires one's humanity. Many Warlord Principes  stay in these "tanks" because, as I understand: 1). it's an honour; 2). they are so strongly connected to their Titans that they feel awkward outside of them 3). because they are unable to interact with the society (they have problems with higher emotions and stuff like that). This is theory. And here artistic liberty kicks in. FW model is just one titan and it is perfectly possible for a Princeps to look like FW imagined, even if perhaps majority would look differently. And finally we have Titandeath, where all the theory i desribed is scrapped and we are given polyamorous lesbian Principes living in open relationships and one of them having children with a princeps from other Legio (because even being a polyamorous lesbian living in open relationships has its limits apparently). GW does not care about canon conflict.

 

 

I hadn't heard about that no - according to lexicanum

the gate has already fractured and let loose the daemons. Slaanesh vs Drukhari battlebox?

This happened in Gathering Storm, IIRC.

 

 

And they develope the story in DE codex. In order to stop the deamons they are constantly creating artificial sub-dimensions to trap them, so Chaos can't reach most of the Commoragh. However, from time to time there are minor breaches.

[Triszin]

you know, I'd be fine with Lorgar and Corvus being the next primarchs coming also.

 

Lorgar shows up with abaddon on vigilus.

 

Turns out Corax has been back for a bit assisting Robby, and the new "vangaurd" were all designed by corax.

 

 

Heck, Coraz by all rights is basically a deamon primarch. He can become shadow and control it. but the dudes a loyalist, he'd give batman nightmares

[Panzer]

Very unlikely though. GW won't lessen the impact of the Abaddon release by throwing another new Primarchs into it. One big guy at a time is a MUCH better approach for them.

[Marshal Rohr]

Originally, I had hoped the Imperium Nihilus would be a 'DIY 40k' setting. Where the studio encouraged people to tell their own stories and build armies around their own cool factions. After ADBs newest book and some of the more recent lore, its becoming clearer the IN is not meant to be that kind of sandbox, but another part of the main studio

[Beren]

 

 

Also want to bring up how it seems Princeps for Reavers and Warlords were odd in that book or is it that Dan took some interesting liberties. In the book, those class of titan princeps had to be put into special caskets that mounted into the titan to connect to it where as Warhound princeps didn't get that "luxury" (as one princeps of a warhound comments) and were just "jacked in" (lack of better phrase). However the Warlord Titan model (and I believe reaver model too) both show the princeps being simply plugged in akin to what the warhound princeps were from the novel. Any side notes on that? (though again, it shows the liberties novelists have to take at times since I am not sure there was any lore relating to that matter at the time he wrote Titanicus).

 

Fort sure "civilians" are underepresented in the novels, even those surrounding Necromunda do not give us representative picture of a hive (leaving aside that they recently put every faction into this planet, aside from Necrons and T'au). But for most part it is simply not epic enough to make it into BL. Even the Vigilus we are discussing now has those Pauper Priences who use dissatisfaction among the population, but doesn't explore the subject in depth.

 

The Titans, well. In theory, interacting with stron Machine Spirits leaves a mark on humans. For this reason Imperial Knights are so , ekhem, knightly. Not because they are from feudal worlds, but because Knight's Machine Spirit have strongly imprinted loyalty, duty etc. The same happens with Principes and Titans. Prolonged interaction creates a bond and impaires one's humanity. Many Warlord Principes stay in these "tanks" because, as I understand: 1). it's an honour; 2). they are so strongly connected to their Titans that they feel awkward outside of them 3). because they are unable to interact with the society (they have problems with higher emotions and stuff like that). This is theory. And here artistic liberty kicks in. FW model is just one titan and it is perfectly possible for a Princeps to look like FW imagined, even if perhaps majority would look differently. And finally we have Titandeath, where all the theory i desribed is scrapped and we are given polyamorous lesbian Principes living in open relationships and one of them having children with a princeps from other Legio (because even being a polyamorous lesbian living in open relationships has its limits apparently). GW does not care about canon conflict.

According to Mechanicus, at the outset of the Heresy Amniotic tanks were a relatively new and not a universally favoured development. They also allowed much greater control over the Titan, but in the millenia that followed there would have been plenty of time to develop alternatives. Xestiobiax's heretek technology also allowed better control, for example. So really there's no canon conflict at all.

[Trevak Dal]

Abaddon will narrowly defeat the Imperium but they will pull out without a complete loss.

 

Same different book. Doctor Daddy's Claw will shout "I'll get you next time Guilliman-NEXT TIME!" And so it goes.

 

I've bet money on it.

[Triszin]

so do we know of the worlds on either end of the Nachmund gauntlet?

[Felix Antipodes]

so do we know of the worlds on either end of the Nachmund gauntlet?

Vigilus on the IN side, Sangua Terra on the Terran side

[Slasher956]

Vigilus falls, a battared Calagar either pulls back to continue strenghtening the Sangua Terra planet. OR is forced to head deeper in the to the IN, where he takes over a UM successor chaptors world and raises is as a mini unltramar so we now have an ultrarmine home world in both halfs of the imperium....

[Panzer]

OR is forced to head deeper in the to the IN, where he takes over a UM successor chaptors world and raises is as a mini unltramar so we now have an ultrarmine home world in both halfs of the imperium....

Please don't even joke about that ... especially not after Dante just got the title Regent of Imperium Nihilus (even though it's just a name ... for now).

[dice4thedicegod]

With primaris, all chapters are ultramarines successors. So I guess once Dante gets the chop in ‘son of Horus versus son of sanguinius’ grudge match, then Calgary can step in as savior to the BA.

[Panzer]

With primaris, all chapters are ultramarines successors. So I guess once Dante gets the chop in ‘son of Horus versus son of sanguinius’ grudge match, then Calgary can step in as savior to the BA.

 

That's objectively wrong.

[Doctor Perils]

With primaris, all chapters are ultramarines successors.

Huh? I think the overprevalence of Ultramarines (in particular Guilliman) is a problem, but all Primaris chapters aren't Ultramarine successors

[Gederas]

With primaris, all chapters are ultramarines successors.

Huh? I think the overprevalence of Ultramarines (in particular Guilliman) is a problem, but all Primaris chapters aren't Ultramarine successors

I think they're being facetious, since that was what Gabriel Seth said regarding the Primaris during the Devastation of Baal. About how they're just Ultramarines painted red.

 

If he's not.... Well, I've got nothing.