Dark angels weak? (in small size games?)

[Hellunder]

I hope some of you veterans out there can help me out.

 

I've been playing a lot (more) of 40k since the launch of 8th edition. I only own dark angels models. Got a fair bit of deathwing, ravenwing and greenwing. Only missing inceptors, assasins and scouts at the moment (as of models that are common in lists in these forums).

 

I usually play smaller games, around 1000p, because most people I play with don't like long games.

 

So my problem is; I almost always loose. Probably 9/10 games. And I only win when a friend has a new army they're not used to. My feeling is that most armies I play against can pretty much take whatever units they want from their codex, but I'm stuck with the obvious choices, and still loose. I haven't played that many 2000 p games, but my feeling is that its easier to play a 'fun' list in bigger games than in smaller games when it comes to DA, probably because of our different wings?

 

I may not be the most strategic person, once in a while I do a couple of charges (don't know where in the fluff it says that DA are cowards that always falls back?) but it's always uphill playing with Dark angels for me.

 

So the short question is: does DA perform worse in smaller games? Should I focus on playing bigger games to make it fun? Or should I invest in an allied detachment to go alongside DA (feels wrong with all our secrecy)?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think that they are as strong as any marine codex in 1000 pts if you stick to vanilla DA. If you try to make it more DA by putting DA special units like terminators then you'll be paying extra for small gain.

1000 pts can be hard for marines because they won't have either the bodies or the toys to compete with other armies and DA are still a marine army for that matter.

If you face other marines, try to mimic their winning lists and see how does it go for you, then tweak them to your taste if they work out.

[Gederas]

In small point games, you should be doing all or nothing. All Greenwing, Ravenwing or (Emperor Forbid) Deathwing. Not a mix because that SEVERELY gimps you more than playing Marines already does.

I may not be the most strategic person, once in a while I do a couple of charges (don't know where in the fluff it says that DA are cowards that always falls back?) but it's always uphill playing with Dark angels for me.

I think this is the biggest issue for you. From what I've seen Dark Angels are the Marine army that takes the MOST thinking and strategy to work, outside of Deathwatch.

 

And to the thing in parentheses: Dark Angels are 'cowards that always falls back' because the fluff writers seem to have a hard-on for making EVERY. SINGLE. MAJOR. ENGAGEMENT Dark Angels involved in have a Fallen for some reason, so they stop what they're doing and focus on catching the Fallen.

[Berzul]

yeah, in my experience, 1000 point games force you to go with a mono-wing army. Also, they make it difficult to bring our best toys to the battlefield. I'd suggest trying greenwing for smaller games.

[ValourousHeart]

I've found the best way to improve your win ratio is to stick with the same list for a while (several months) and just keep playing games and learning from your mistakes.

 

Instead of re-writing the list each time and try to fit in a unit to overcome the issue you faced in the last game, keep taking the same units and figure out the priority list and how to overcome those issue with the units you have.

 

If you give us your list of models and what your favorite units are (the ones you always want to have on the table), we can help you build a couple of lists to try out for the next month or two.

[Hellunder]

Thank you guys for all the input!

 

As Valourous says I usually take new lists all the time. I also tend fit in a bit of ravenwing or death wing even in my small Greenwing lists. Here’s my models, a lot of fun characters:

 

Azrael

Librarian (Ezekiel)

Librarian w jump pack

Librarian w termie armour

Master/company champion

Master/lieutenant w jump pack and lightning claws

Primaris lieutenant w power sword and plasma pistol

Chaplain w magnetised jump pack

Sammael

Talonmaster

 

20 tactical marines w plasma and heavy bolters

5 intercessors

 

5 chain sword w plasma jump pack assault squad

 

7 hellblasters

 

1 Dreadnought

 

1 razorback

 

5 dw knights

5 dw termies (assault cannon)

Dw ancient

Dw apothecary

Dw champion (unpainted :(

 

6 rw bikers w 2 plasma guns

3 black knights

Dark shroud

Dark talon

 

I think that’s all! :)

[ValourousHeart]

Well, there is your problem right there, you don't have any land speeders.

Talonmaster plus 9 Land Speeders is an awesome 1000 point list, and super fun to play.

You should consider picking up a couple of squadrons (6 speeders is a good start).

 

 

 

You don't have enough Ravenwing to make the Ravenwing Formation worth your while, at this time, save the command point for something else.

The Dark Talon, Sableclaw, and Talonmaster will generally kill whatever you point them at in 1000 point games.

The Shroud will be advancing, hiding or dying.

The Black Knights are dead as soon as anything gets LOS on them, you need more of them.

Which only leaves you the 6 bikes... which can't make use of the strat unless they shoot at something someone else already shot at... and since that will be the Dark Talon, Sableclaw or Talonmaster, I think you can see why I said save the CP.

 

 

 

Focus your list on the Azreal firebase... Hellblasters, Intercessors and Tactical squads.

If you are playing friendly games, proxy* your 2 plasma guns as Black Knights, and use them as a counter assault unit to protect your firebase.

(*Until you can pick up another box of RWBK).

 

Don't spread yourself too thin, and do not go for Tri-wing.

 

You'll want about 750 to 800 of your points in the firebase, which might include your Shroud.

Then either take a counter charge unit to protect your base or take a fast mover that can get where your firebase can't reach.

[shabbadoo]

I agree with the calls for keeping things simple. Playing a small force like Deathwing is a Deathwish. There are just too few models, and that makes it easy for the enemy to concentrate on their small units and either wipe them out or render them combat ineffective. In smaller games, go with quantity. The most basic units are still solid units. Force multiplier HQ's are more useful the mroe models you field, but don't go too heavy on them to the point that you are relying too much upon their benefits. I tend to go with a Greenwing force in smaller battles, such as this:

 

Battalion Detachment (+5 Command Points)

 

HQ

125 pts. Librarian: jump pack, force sword, plasma pistol.

95 pts. Chaplain: jump pack, crozius Arcanum, plasma pistol.

 

ELITES

134 pts.Venerable Dreadnought: assault cannon, dreadnought combat weapon, storm bolter.

 

TROOPS

81 pts. (5) Tactical Marines: 3 bolters, sgt. w/ bolter; plasma cannon.

76 pts. (5) Tactical Marines: 3 bolters, sgt. w/ bolter & chainsword; plasma gun.

90 pts. (5) Tactical Marines: 3 bolters, sgt. w/ bolter; lascannon.

 

FAST ATTACK

164 pts. (10) Assault Squad: sgt. w/powerfist & meltabombs.

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

143 pts. (7) Devastator Marines: 2 plasma cannons, 2 heavy bolters.

92 pts. Whirlwind: vengeance launcher, stormbolter.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1,000 pts. (EDIT: updated points as per Chapter Approved 2018, and I fit in a bit more even! :D)

 

This 36-model force has enough bodies to take a beating and still respond, and enough varied units to accomplish various tasks. It can put out a respectable amount of firepower, and the HQs, Assault Squad (which can Combat Squad and each pair up with an HQ), and Venerable Dreadnought can rip enemy units up in melee well enough. I play forces like this in our club special game events, which are set up as mini-tournaments at small point levels (500pts. - 1,000pts.) so that there is plenty of time to get in three games at a leisurely pace in 6-8 hours, including break time for an evening meal. Very often I end up going up against more elite forces made up of 15-25 models in total, so the opponent is intimidated at the outset ("Are you sure that is only 1,000 points?" "Yep." )  The exception to that small number of enemy models to face are usually Orks or IG, but this force is very well suited to taking on even a 1,000 pt. horde that outnumbers it close to 3 to 1. And, even though the points total is small, this 36-model force actually looks (and functions!) like a real army.

[MaxB]

I do ok with 1000 point lists (given in a non-competitive setting). I think you need to start with a core of 3 troops (scouts ideally) then decide what one flavour you want to go (greenwing infanrty gunline, ravenwing). Trying to do more than one of these doesn't work imo for small games. Work out what combo of units are going to synergise (Master, lieutenant and some hellblasters. Or Master, Talonmaster, hellblasters for the same thing with mobility). Stick to 2 HQ max - most marine characters are buffing/force mulitpliers - so don't overload on these at the expense of more bodies on the board to buff.

 

General list themes I've tried that work...

3 scout squads, Master, Lieutenant, hellblasters, aggressors

3 scout squads, Samm in Sableclaw, Talonmaster, RW bikes

 

Deathwing are too expensive to run at 1000 points. 

[Hellunder]

Thanks for all the input guys! A lot of new ideas here and lists I wouldn’t normally go for.

 

I think my main strategy will be to refine some kind of green wing oriented list. I have ran Azrael castle with HB, champion and heavenfall blade lieutenant that was pretty hard to take down in melee as well. I think what I’ve been lacking in games is control of the centre of the board. A few ravenwing running round the edges haven’t really worked with the units I have. Maybe I should try trading speed for resilience and firepower..

 

Do you guys think Azrael is too expensive for small games, or does he actually make a bigger impact in smaller games?

[Berzul]

For reference, I do believe Azrael is too expensive for 1000 point games, and usually ties you down to a very castle-like build on a list, which at 1000 points means you will have very little room to add support squads for board control.

 

But, it can be done, and at 1000 points having 10 Helblasters with the 4++ save and a -1 to be hit by a Shroud, firing D3 plasma blasts, might be quite devastating. Small lists means reduced or restricted sources of fire from the enemy, so an "army wide" 4++ can make a huge diference.

 

For reference, last friday I took the following, after a lot of suggestions form other players here, for a fight against a T'au Brigade:

Azrael

Lieutenant with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword

5 Devastators with a Cherub, a HB and a ML

5 Devastators with a Cherub, a HB and a ML

 

You are talking 420 points from a 1300 points list. Left me 880 for some Deathwing (to add mobility as they could and did drop behind enemy lines), some Tacticals for objective camping (which they did, to great effect), and even a Ven Dread for fire support (who got blown up waaaaay too soon, but did manage to eat a lot of shots, keeping the rest of the guys safe for a turn).

 

This tiny fortress (not enough to be called a castle) managed o use their flakk missiles and helfire shells on the move, firing one per squad, with signums on each to offset the -1 from moving, and rerrolls to add accuracy. With that, they took out plasma pathfinders, burst cannon stealth suits, and sniper drones, from my opponents forward and support squads, turn one, with great efficiency. Which left my opponent without harassment units and character killers, and forced him to switch to a much more offensive tactic with his gunline, clearing room in his backline to allow me to drop the Deathwing behind him, clearing the rest of the infantry.

 

Despite the low model count, Azrael made all the difference in that game, as even though all I had around were ablative wounds and 2 heavy weapons, those weapons were pumping out mortal wounds every turn, and the amount of shots needed to take them out was inmense.

[Skorp]

As valarous says go for an azrael firebase but as berzul points out you need something fast that can take objectives.

 

I play at 1000 lately:

 

Azrael

Lt

3x5 Scouts with snipers

9 Hellblasters

Ancient

 

Dark Talon

 

Ive had mixed results. Scouts with heavy weapons im finding arent the best to move and grab objectives, and the dark talon does work but also isnt good at the objective game. I love the models I play with and have fun. *shrug* I'll paint some more ravenwing eventually.

[Berzul]

I'd offer this idea

 

Azrael

Lieutenant with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword

 

5 Tacticals, with Plasma and Combi Plasma

5 Tacticals, with Plasma and Combi Plasma

5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks

 

5 Terminators, with Watcher in the Dark and Cyclone Missile Launcher

 

2 Ravenwing Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas

 

5 Devastators, with a HB, a ML, and Cherub

5 Devastators, with a HB, a ML, and Cherub

 

Make a Castle around Azrael and the Lieutenant with the Devastators and the Bikes. Bikes can use the bubble for a 4++ first turn, then speed of the raven for a 4++ rest of the battle. Use their bolter to pick at screens, their meltas to take on armored units.

 

Camp objectives or advance with the troop choices, and drop the DW where needed for some board control. DWA with the cyclone missile launcher can be quite effective although expensive.

[shabbadoo]

It has slightly fewer models, but I like the variety (and tactical flexibility) in that list too.

[Berzul]

Its not the BIGGEST list, but has a purpose, includes all three wings, and packs a punch. Not saying its perfect, but could work.

 

Im currently playing this as a basis for a 1300 list and has worked pretty well.

 

Due to availability of models my 1000 version is

 

Azrael, Brilliant Strategist

Lieutenant with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword

 

5 tacticals with Combi Plasma and Plasma Cannon

5 tacticals with Combi Plasma and Plasma Cannon

5 tacticals with Combi Plasma and Plasma Cannon

 

5 deathwing knights OR 5 deathwing terminatord with an assault cannon

 

2 ravenwing attack bikes with multi meltas

 

5 devastators with cherub, HB and ML

5 devastators with cherub, HB and ML

[Skorp]

I've got most everything to try a list like that. I'm happy to hear that the attack bikes work, I just so happen to have one built and magnetized and one unbuilt I've been debating the usefulness of for a while now. 

[Berzul]

I never used to use them, until they got their points dropped, and got the Beta Bolters. Now, I love em. They carry 12 T5 wounds, can go 4++, fire 3 MM shots and 12 Bolter shots, which means they can clear screens AND blow stuff up. They work speciallly good vs T'au, where you can kill some drones with the bolters and then the heavier stuff with the Multi Meltas.

[Hellunder]

Plasma tacticals sounds fun! Have you tried them in any games Berzul?

 

I’m thinking a similar list like you suggested, but I might have to take some hellblasters due to lack of devastators. I should be able to field some of my ordinary marines as devastators though.

 

The other question though: Azrael or/and dark shroud? Is anyone playing that in small games or is it overkill? They do protect the army in different ways.

[Berzul]

Yes, I almost always bring plasma tacticals to the table. I tried the 3*5 Plasma Tacticals twice this weekend and they worked pretty well.

[sneakybamsen]

Azrael and Darkshroud is more than 300 pts, I wouldn't bring those two in games of 1K.

 

I might bring Azrael, depending on what I'd want to do, but the Shroud would stay at home unless I would be playing RW attack squadron (then Azrael would be out of the list).

[Master Sheol]

With the models you have you Can try this greenwing list

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) [53 PL, 998pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Azrael [9 PL, 180pts]

 

Ezekiel [7 PL, 135pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 87pts]: 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma

. Special Weapon Marine: Plasma gun

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 87pts]: 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma

. Special Weapon Marine: Plasma gun

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 86pts]: 3x Space Marine

. Heavy Weapon Marine: Heavy bolter

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma

 

+ Elites +

 

Dreadnought [7 PL, 120pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Ravenwing Darkshroud [7 PL, 138pts]: Heavy bolter

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators

. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

 

++ Total: [53 PL, 998pts] ++

[Hellunder]

Could be cool! Ezekiel is getting mentioned a lot, maybe it’s time to take him out for a spin!

[Hannibal]

I hope some of you veterans out there can help me out.

 

I usually play smaller games, around 1000p, because most people I play with don't like long games.

 

So my problem is; I almost always loose. Probably 9/10 games.

 

So the short question is: does DA perform worse in smaller games? Should I focus on playing bigger games to make it fun? Or should I invest in an allied detachment to go alongside DA (feels wrong with all our secrecy)?

 

Hi,

 

there has been a lot of great advice given in that thread! Nevertheless, I like to add my 2 cents:

 

1) Always play the same list at least 10 times without any major changes.

 

2) After each game, read through all rules of your army and recognize the game. Which rule did you neglect? Which rule could be useful in a given situation? That way you will learn a lot about your army / models!

 

3) Always play the scenario game. Most people just try to annihilate the opposing force which ist not the best way to play that game more often than not.

 

That being said you need a tactically flexible list to perfom in that game. I´m not a friend of castling because I think that 40k is a game of movement as well as a game of fighting / shooting.

 

Things I would consider when building an army:

 

A) A 3-men ravenwing bike squad offers speed and Dakka for a really low price.

 

B) The classic Devastator squad consisting of 5 men, heavy bolter, missle launcher and cherub is one of the most flexible units you can get. There are two stratagems that heavily enhance the power/tactical flexibility of that unit. You can also add a lascannon to get even more tactical flexibility.

 

C) I like razorbacks with twin lascannons.

 

D) IMO terminators are rubbish. The are killed almost as easily as Primaris Space Marines, though cost a lot of points and are rather slow.