Scammel Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 And it seems increasingly obvious that The Emperor is going to defeat Horus very easily. Horus has confided in Mortarion that he isn't sure he can defeat The Emperor. TBiS ends with the image of an eagle tearing out the throat of a serpent. Horus was effectively defeated in single combat by Russ. I can't remember precisely, but I recall that either Russ or the Khan think Sanguinius could do the job alone, which hardly bodes well for Horus if he has to go two rounds. This obviously leads us to the question of how The Emperor ends up incarcerated, and I suspect something similar has happened before. A small handful of characters have suggested that He was awoken, perhaps accidentally, rather than deliberately unveiling Himself - it's also been mooted that He may be a relatively recent creation, though this is contradicted by the POV of the young Emperor in Master of Mankind. We know that Perpetuals can be incapacitated, but only through the use of a weapon as powerful as an Anathame. Are there any ancient Perpetuals in 30k with intimate knowledge of Anathames, who might have Pious worldviews at odds with The Emperor's? Someone presently journeying towards Terra? I think we're being set up for the ultimate perversion of the ascension myth. What a conclusion it would be if Oll defeated The Emperor. … Has anyone else noticed this? How Horus is being de-hyped? Really interested to hear how everyone else think the endgame might play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Marshal Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Wasn't that always the case though? The Emperor was holding back because he couldn't bring himself to kill his favoured son. It was only through Horus killing Ollanius/Terminator/Custode that made him realise Horus was too far gone and he actually made to obliterate him. By that point, he'd been wounded enough that he needed interring (and now to keep the daemons at bay). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfburk Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 You'd think that seeing Sanguinius dead, and all the that transpired before, would be enough to show the Emperor what needs to be done. I sure hope that isnt the way it plays out in the novels. For me id love to see the Emperor understanding that he isnt fighting Horus, but the 4 chaos gods in that body, and their full power is what injuries him, but after a final effort he brings them down, perhaps an effort managed after the 4 chaos gods get too confident as they see their anathema on the ground and supposedly defeated for the first time. (well not this exactly but you get the picture) Anyway, Horus on his own is what they think Sanguinius -may- be able to defeat. But after Slaves to Darkness, it effectively isnt Horus i think, but a corpse buffed by the 4 chaos gods. And from what i remember Russ made a suicide attack on Horus just hoping to bleed him and see what the spear would do, hoping the spear would take him down before the counter attack came. When the counter attack came Russ was wrecked and had to be saved by his space wolves. And, off topic, but one retcon that i approve is, if Oll has to be there... that he is a perpetual. Having an Imperial Guardsmen get in the throne room, not only before all the space marines and custodes, but before Rogal freaking DORN (and not to mention why the heck would this guardsmen even get teleported to the vengeful spirit), has always baffled me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Marshal Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 And, off topic, but one retcon that i approve is, if Oll has to be there... that he is a perpetual. Having an Imperial Guardsmen get in the throne room, not only before all the space marines and custodes, but before Rogal freaking DORN (and not to mention why the heck would this guardsmen even get teleported to the vengeful spirit), has always baffled me. Because they had a very short space of time to get a strike team assembled when the Vengeful Spirit's shields went down. Presumably they grabbed anybody - Custodes, Primarchs, Marines, Army, interns, janitors - and crammed them all to the teleporter. It was already established the actual teleportation sent everybody everywhere, which is why by the time Dorn got there Horus was already dead but the Emperor got there after Sangy had his feathers plucked despite obviously being the most powerful of the lot. The Emperor carves through armies of daemons like a Christmas turkey. If Oli ended up near the Emperor's side there was no safer place for him to have landed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfburk Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 The Emperor carves through armies of daemons like a Christmas turkey. If Oli ended up near the Emperor's side there was no safer place for him to have landed. Hm, good point, i rest my case, hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Re: Horus "de-hyped"... We have NOT seen Horus post-Slaves to Darkness in action yet, beyond a few brief scenes at the end. Horus before that book was being torn apart by the Pantheon and his own remaining conscience. After Slaves to Darkness, he is as powerful as he can be, with nothing holding him back. I wouldn't be surprised if, during the Siege and the final encounter, he's far beyond anything we've seen from him so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Having a Perpetual Oll be perma-kill by Chaos Horus would be a shocking event It would also mean that Vulkan can be killed without using Fulgrite/Shard of Erebus Somebody in GW/BL said that the Novels are going to change the duel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0nolith Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Perpetuals can be perma-killed. Barthusa Narek, the loyalist Word Bearer and Eldrad teamed up to perma-kill several Cabal Prepetuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I do hope they show us Narek's inevitably unsuccessful attempt to kill Lorgar. And honestly, I don't think the Emperor is going to easily defeat Horus. We still don't have enough information to go off, post-Master of Mankind, to state with any real authority how the Emperor actually feels about/for his sons. Slaves to Darkness showed Horus as a dark mirror to the Emperor. It also makes very little sense for the Emperor to risk humanity's future just because he cares for a son. Doesn't feel very...."Emperorish" based on what we've seen. Long story short: no idea what will happen. It's going to be an interesting ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 seconded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Perpetuals can be perma-killed. Barthusa Narek, the loyalist Word Bearer and Eldrad teamed up to perma-kill several Cabal Prepetuals. I meant by sheer psychic power or Chaos energy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 You'd think that seeing Sanguinius dead, and all the that transpired before, would be enough to show the Emperor what needs to be done. I sure hope that isnt the way it plays out in the novels. For me id love to see the Emperor understanding that he isnt fighting Horus, but the 4 chaos gods in that body, and their full power is what injuries him, but after a final effort he brings them down, perhaps an effort managed after the 4 chaos gods get too confident as they see their anathema on the ground and supposedly defeated for the first time. (well not this exactly but you get the picture) Anyway, Horus on his own is what they think Sanguinius -may- be able to defeat. But after Slaves to Darkness, it effectively isnt Horus i think, but a corpse buffed by the 4 chaos gods. And from what i remember Russ made a suicide attack on Horus just hoping to bleed him and see what the spear would do, hoping the spear would take him down before the counter attack came. When the counter attack came Russ was wrecked and had to be saved by his space wolves. And, off topic, but one retcon that i approve is, if Oll has to be there... that he is a perpetual. Having an Imperial Guardsmen get in the throne room, not only before all the space marines and custodes, but before Rogal freaking DORN (and not to mention why the heck would this guardsmen even get teleported to the vengeful spirit), has always baffled me. In the duel, Russ wounds him with the spear and then has an opening to cut his head off but he falters, thinking the spear power could bring the true Horus back and finish the Heresy without more murder, for he sees him trapped inside Horus' eyes. The problem is that the wound inflicted by Russ did give strength to the true Horus to remember and start rebelling against the influence of the pantheon but Maloghurst sacrifices himself to kill the last remaining shard of true Horus that remained inside him. Who is Horus now truly is anyone's guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Oll Pious is a guardsman though. He was a soldier who had retired to Calth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jings Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 And, off topic, but one retcon that i approve is, if Oll has to be there... that he is a perpetual. Having an Imperial Guardsmen get in the throne room, not only before all the space marines and custodes, but before Rogal freaking DORN (and not to mention why the heck would this guardsmen even get teleported to the vengeful spirit), has always baffled me. Yeah, I was always ambivalent about that retcon until I actually read Legion and Know No Fear and got the point of his character - as (one of) the last ancient perpetual who had lived through almost the entirity of humanity, Horus killing him symbolises that there's no going back - all that humanity once was is gone forever. The lessons of the past all unlearned forgotten, never to be known again and repeated for millenia. With that in mind, it makes a lot more sense that this one man, one of the few that shares his knowledge of what humanity once was, defiantly standing against Horus at the height of his strength could be the catalyst that makes the Emperor overcome his "fatherly love" for Horus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 I think they're going to change up a bit of the narrative while keeping the absolute key points (i.e. Horus kills Sangy, Emps kills Horus.) The standard "it's been 10,000 years, legends form, etc." will be deployed for any changes to previous lore. Also, fully expect Horus to be completely subsumed by the 4 Chaos Gods when he fights the Emps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 I had a thought the other day, we know that Horus is 'dead' as of Slaves to Darkness so what if its not Horus that the Emperor fights? But a daemon born of the gestalt (is that the right word? If not then combined) conciouness for the Four, that combined with the Emperor being weakened slightly from the throne might make the fight even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 I will point out that there is some evidence that a shred of Horus' noble self still remains: ‘Silence,’ said Horus, still looking down at Lorgar. Fulgrim’s laughter vanished. Horus lowered his mace. For a second, Layak thought Horus looked as he had when he last stood on this world, not a shadow of power but a warrior who was greater than any man but less than a god: terrifying and noble.‘Go,’ said Horus. Lorgar did not move. Layak saw Falkus Kibre glance at Horus Aximand, puzzlement flashing over their faces. ‘If you enter my presence again, the judgment I withhold shall fall upon you.’ Still, Lorgar did not move. ‘Go!’ roared Horus, and the shout echoed out across the plateau like a peal of thunder. Horus shocks all present (his own officers included) by granting Lorgar mercy, despite the depth of his betrayal. And when he does so, his shifting visage - at least to Layak - morphs into an image of Horus as he had been. It seems plausible that this shard of Horus' true self could emerge eventually, possibly right at the end when he is close to death (very similar to the old lore). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Ah, thanks. I have not yet read that (I have a sizable to-read list and have yet to add to it) so perhaps the old Horus influences or pushes through the corrupt verison of him then at certain points, so in the Final Fight perhaps the old Horus pushes through at the end? Regardless, its not going to go how it was before. I am quite intrigued as to how it will pan out, and from whose side we will see the fight from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarineRaider Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 I really liked this book when I read it last year. It raised some questions about the Alpha Legion and repairing a decapitated Primarch but I think the end was more for Malcador and his humors. The E knows that his friend was going to be making a huge sacrifice and through the cards, the taunting and eventually words let him know the E valued him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisimo Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 I will point out that there is some evidence that a shred of Horus' noble self still remains: ‘Silence,’ said Horus, still looking down at Lorgar. Fulgrim’s laughter vanished. Horus lowered his mace. For a second, Layak thought Horus looked as he had when he last stood on this world, not a shadow of power but a warrior who was greater than any man but less than a god: terrifying and noble. ‘Go,’ said Horus. Lorgar did not move. Layak saw Falkus Kibre glance at Horus Aximand, puzzlement flashing over their faces. ‘If you enter my presence again, the judgment I withhold shall fall upon you.’ Still, Lorgar did not move. ‘Go!’ roared Horus, and the shout echoed out across the plateau like a peal of thunder. Horus shocks all present (his own officers included) by granting Lorgar mercy, despite the depth of his betrayal. And when he does so, his shifting visage - at least to Layak - morphs into an image of Horus as he had been. It seems plausible that this shard of Horus' true self could emerge eventually, possibly right at the end when he is close to death (very similar to the old lore). On the one hand, it’d be a nice touch. On the other, it’d mean that the Lion-Luther fight is pretty much the same. Long fight, some back-breaking, a mortal wound inflicted by the traitor, a moment of contrition, and then the good guy strikes a fatal blow before more-or-less succumbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 I will point out that there is some evidence that a shred of Horus' noble self still remains: ‘Silence,’ said Horus, still looking down at Lorgar. Fulgrim’s laughter vanished. Horus lowered his mace. For a second, Layak thought Horus looked as he had when he last stood on this world, not a shadow of power but a warrior who was greater than any man but less than a god: terrifying and noble. ‘Go,’ said Horus. Lorgar did not move. Layak saw Falkus Kibre glance at Horus Aximand, puzzlement flashing over their faces. ‘If you enter my presence again, the judgment I withhold shall fall upon you.’ Still, Lorgar did not move. ‘Go!’ roared Horus, and the shout echoed out across the plateau like a peal of thunder. Horus shocks all present (his own officers included) by granting Lorgar mercy, despite the depth of his betrayal. And when he does so, his shifting visage - at least to Layak - morphs into an image of Horus as he had been. It seems plausible that this shard of Horus' true self could emerge eventually, possibly right at the end when he is close to death (very similar to the old lore). On the one hand, it’d be a nice touch. On the other, it’d mean that the Lion-Luther fight is pretty much the same. Long fight, some back-breaking, a mortal wound inflicted by the traitor, a moment of contrition, and then the good guy strikes a fatal blow before more-or-less succumbing. The analogy only works if Luther is the good guy On the main point about Horus and to what extent he still exists in there (as 'honourable' Horus or otherwise) - is this really just speculation and conjecture? Wasn't it always the case that the tragedy of the final confrontation between the Emperor and Horus was enhanced by Horus returning, in some respect, to his old self at the point where the Emperor was mortally wounded and Horus's death was unavoidable? Am I missing something? This is not a new reveal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 As has been said. Emperor was pulling his punches. When he decided to fight he obliterated Horus instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 As has been said. Emperor was pulling his punches. When he decided to fight he obliterated Horus instantly. Nope, Laurie Goulding has stated that the novels will change that Quite frankly tired of Chaos having its arms tied behind it's back I want Horus to overpower the Emperor! Beat him so bad that he needed more power to beat the Warmaster! Sanguinius wasn't killed by Horus, he SACRIFICED his life to give back his power to the Emperor! Oll Pius still sacrifice himself, he really dies. But his perpetual powers are transferred to the Emperor! This sudden boost allows Emps to kill Horus! The Old Narrative DOES NOT :cussING WORK! The near-victory of Chaos has to be close like a hair's touch/breathe (forgot the rest of the analogy) The fans/readers need to feel the desperation! Abaddon should also use the Talon of Horus to kill Valdor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 ...say, is there any reason to add so many blank lines to your posts? It's honestly exhausting to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Laurie golding is also a hack and known to take pleasure in greifing the fanbase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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