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Sanguinius Full Rules for 30k


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#76
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Not worth it Skimask...not woth it.


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#77
Gorgoff

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"More misplaying, don't know why he needs buffs for user error"
I second that.
Sanguinius is a powerhouse and some players just don't seem to know why that is the case. And because of that they want to change him so that he is easier to use.
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#78
SkimaskMohawk

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Not worth it Skimask...not woth it.

 

It's worth it to me, since I learned a few new things doing the math.

First, that I was wrong about russ; he can go toe to toe with contemptors, it's the pesky 4++ that makes levis so great.

Second, is that all primarchs really just need to stay away from leviathans in the first place lol. You either get stuck grinding them out with horus, ferrus, vulkan and pert; take too much damage for the few turns you're in, or just die. 


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#79
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Leviathans are spooky stands a pretty good chance of beating a ruinstorm archdemon if it doesnt take str d. Severing cut is a monstrous rule.

On topic I think you guys are complaining a but much yeah gun being 1 shot sucks but it's an 18" melta so it should have a range nerf if its multiple shots. Secondly he gets to reroll his invul on charge has a bunch of buffs to it that make him very strong only below angron in damage output. But you are faster than angron buff your army a ton more than angron and you arent 5w 3+ like angron. Like we players can complain their primarch is litterally squisher than an average custode. Sanguinius is a beast. We shouldnt look at release russ or Magnus both of whom were nerfed comparing him to the overall pool hes in the top for me for sure. I'm not a huge fan of having to pick his weapon and in still a bit unsure I think you typically go spear but the sword is still very strong with shred rampage and will eat units of 1w models or if you bring rad nades for him itll massacre unique terminators.

#80
Omega-soul

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Only 2 other primarchs have multiple melee weapons

Guilliman have Fist and Sword

Perturabo is like Sanguinius can choose Logos or Forgebreaker - but latter is obviously superior so Pert can make for Unwieldy

Rogal Dorn have 2 mode of fighting Chainsword

Ferrus have 4 guns 

Vulkan have 2nd mode of Hammer all-around attack

Corax have 3 modes of fighting 

 

It makes - more than half primarchs total.

 

 

 

 

Sang still has "a chance"  he's pumping out 10 str 7 attacks with shred

 

It's so convinient that you included rampage and charge bonuses. Especially againts multi-wound targets (by that i mean monsters vehicles walkers, not a praetors)

 

 

 Primarch successful vehicle damage amount vs. Leviathan

 

 

That is also great you taking into account charge mode. As if I had any problems on charge. Only if ever combat in game was Sanguinius charging things and killing it in one turn.

If that was the case - I wouldn't be here.

 

 

 

and you just get more and more of them every turn. 15 points

No you missed the point it's like Far-seeing eye of Corbulo in 8th edition, but enhanced (because primarch)  - first turn he can spend 2 points, second turn - he can spend 3 points, third turn - 4 points.

Dices are not cumulative from turn to turn.

From a background standpoint - the longer game goes - more clearly event gets. First trun future is clouded, last turn - results are the most obvious.

 

 

 

 

you need to kill 20 guys

So, you have a difficulty to kill a blob of 20 marines that stands right before you? If they deep striked - that would be even more convinient to template them.

I don't know about your Meta, but in my meta killing 20 marines is quite easy task, considering high priority target.

 

 

 

More misplaying

That is quite intresting assumption from someone who have problems with 20 marines, but can't see how Sanguinius can stay a few rounds killing something significant while enemy dreadnought have some spare time to walk into said combat.

 

So if by "user error" you mean "never play with someone who have units that can kill Sangy" then yes it's error. Otherwise, I'm sorry I didn't get "Sanguinius user manual"

 

And I even didn't get to watch an Iron hand dreadnoughts "i-don't-care-about-your-damage"-combo it was those pesky Iron warriors. 

 

 Primarch successful vehicle damage amount vs. Leviathan



#81
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Either you're deliberately obtuse and don't read what Skimask wrote or just trolling. Your "propositions" are a great guide how  NOT to write rules. Everything you wrote is borderline OP and shows you have literally no experience (or just common sense) in playing the game. Generaly you think that primarch, ugh, sorry, Sanguinius should annihilate every kind of target (blobs, elites, MC, vehicles, other primarchs) because he's the GrEAteSt. By providing some dumb censored.gif battlefield situations you want to prove he's weak when cleraly he's not. You're also being rude to someone who was kind enough to engage in reasonable discussion with you and comment your insane ideas using arguments.

 

Guilliman have Fist and Sword

Perturabo is like Sanguinius can choose Logos or Forgebreaker - but latter is obviously superior so Pert can make for Unwieldy

Rogal Dorn have 2 mode of fighting Chainsword

Ferrus have 4 guns 

Vulkan have 2nd mode of Hammer all-around attack

Corax have 3 modes of fighting 

 

It makes - more than half primarchs total.

 

Most of them are 4 attacks base and EVERY one of them except Corax strikes either last due to weapon rules or at the same time vs charging leviathan. So?
 

 

That is also great you taking into account charge mode. As if I had any problems on charge. Only if ever combat in game was Sanguinius charging things and killing it in one turn.

If that was the case - I wouldn't be here.

So don't get charged or  If you know your opponent has leviathan you should avoid it. Not that difficult, especially when you fly.
 

 

No you missed the point it's like Far-seeing eye of Corbulo in 8th edition, but enhanced (because primarch)  - first turn he can spend 2 points, second turn - he can spend 3 points, third turn - 4 points.

Dices are not cumulative from turn to turn.

From a background standpoint - the longer game goes - more clearly event gets. First trun future is clouded, last turn - results are the most obvious.

 

Still broken as hell and divination does not work like that in fluff.
 

 

So, you have a difficulty to kill a blob of 20 marines that stands right before you? If they deep striked - that would be even more convinient to template them.

I don't know about your Meta, but in my meta killing 20 marines is quite easy task, considering high priority target.

 

So stop complaining that Sanguinius can be bogged down by hordes lol.

 

That is quite intresting assumption from someone who have problems with 20 marines, but can't see how Sanguinius can stay a few rounds killing something significant while enemy dreadnought have some spare time to walk into said combat.

 

So if by "user error" you mean "never play with someone who have units that can kill Sangy" then yes it's error. Otherwise, I'm sorry I didn't get "Sanguinius user manual"

 

And I even didn't get to watch an Iron hand dreadnoughts "i-don't-care-about-your-damage"-combo it was those pesky Iron warriors.

 

Few rounds killing what exactly? Means you have either chosen a target he's not suited to deal with or allowed yourslef to be charged by said unit. And (assuming you'ra a real player) you should have enough experience to know that in any tbletop game things do not always go exactly how you want/plan because your opponent has a brain and uses it to counter your strategies and using tools at his disposal to max effect. As you should.

 

Iron hand dreadnoughts "i-don't-care-about-your-damage"-combo - never heard of it. Can someone illuminate me?


Edited by rendingon1+, 21 March 2019 - 07:42 PM.

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#82
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I think this combo is about the new consul (with his dread squad) + ferrus + blessed autosimulacra combo. wich would result in a double 5+ and 6+ ignore dammage on the Dread (not counting invul)


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#83
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Mortifactor Consul + Dread Unit (Contemptors) + Ferrus + Head of the Gorgon results in a single 500+ point unit (not counting Ferrus and the cost to get the barebones of the RoW) that:

  • Has Av13 front amor
  • 5+ invulnerable
  • 5+ ignore damage
  • 5+ IWND
  • 6+ Blessed Autosimulacra

Edited by Slips, 21 March 2019 - 08:22 PM.

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#84
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Still broken as hell and divination does not work like that in fluff.

 

 

 

To be fair, that is actually exactly how it's been shown in some of the novels more recently. Not that I think an ability to reroll anything you like multiple times per turn is a good thing either.

 

What MIGHT have worked well, would have been something a bit like what Sevatar has I guess, the ability to use prescience but with a lower Ld for the purposes of doing so. OR say he can use it once a game. But Sanguinius USUALLY doesn't actually benefit from the ability to see the future at all, its random.

 

anyways.

 

Sanguinius offensive potential is honestly fine, Russ shouldn't have the -1 to hit aura frankly and he would be fine too. I think part of the issue is, people want to compare him to characters like Russ - which is pretty reasonable, considering Sanguinius is described repeatedly as being better than just about all of them in a fight. BUT the issue isn't really with sanguinius, its the fact russ is 30 points cheaper and has the same statline, a better set of weapons and a ridiculous (even post errata) aura ability.

 

Seriously, if they made Sanguinius' pistol into something like Dantes old perdition pistol (12" infernus pistol) I think people would be happy with the gun. Yes it means Sanguinius would get an extra attack if he is using the blade encarmine or moonsilver, but really that isn't a huge issue considering the former is as everyone agrees, meant to be the blender weapon and the latter is crap (except vs daemons).

I do still think he should have had hit and run, perhaps instead of the no scatter deep strike or perhaps instead of the invulnerable reroll on the turn he charges.

 

Sanguinius is very very good, but his rules fall a little short for 485 points.

  • Fix his pistol to be a pistol (with a pistols range too) - its a mild nerf to range and shots, but makes it a usable weapon in the entire game, which seems fitting for a primarch, the bonus attack when using either sword also helps make them more balanced vs the spear in a reasonable way.
  • Give him hit and run (probably instead of the invulnerable save reroll) - this is a defensive nerf, but makes him more usable and also fits with how something with wings really should fight.
  • Maybe just flat out say he has exactly the same ability as Corbulo and ONCE PER GAME can reroll a single dice. - gives him the foresight type ability that honestly I think most BA players expected, especially as its been talked up in books more recently, whilst not allowing it to be an OP ability.

Would those three things really make him OP, the first two are both a boost and a nerf, the last one is a tough to use well benefit, do you save it to  reroll a save ONCE, do you use it to reroll a charge or do you use it for rerolling an attack etc. Because his visions are unclear and clouded, he may well use it at the wrong time.


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#85
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So the only IH bonus are Autosimulacra? Meh.

 

Though not an Iron Hands player, can't wait to use it  and take sadistic joy in BA player's despair as my Contemptors rip Sanguinius apart with no damage taken in return!rolleyesclean.gif 


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#86
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So the only IH bonus are Autosimulacra? Meh.

 

Though not an Iron Hands player, can't wait to use it  and take sadistic joy in BA player's despair as my Contemptors rip Sanguinius apart with no damage taken in return!rolleyesclean.gif

 

Sanguinius saw it coming but went in anyway because he recognizes the value of a good sacrifice!


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#87
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I'm sure redingon has answered a few, but here we go.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only 2 other primarchs have multiple melee weapons

Guilliman have Fist and Sword

Perturabo is like Sanguinius can choose Logos or Forgebreaker - but latter is obviously superior so Pert can make for Unwieldy

Rogal Dorn have 2 mode of fighting Chainsword

Ferrus have 4 guns 

Vulkan have 2nd mode of Hammer all-around attack

Corax have 3 modes of fighting 

 

It makes - more than half primarchs total.

 

 

 

When I said "multiple melee weapons" I meant ones where you can mix them attacks with, like Horus. Yes, Guilliman also has two melee weapons that he's equipped with.

 

-Perturabo has one melee weapon; forgebreaker. Yes, you can not spend the points and have a different profile, but you yourself have even realized that one is a trap choice.

-Dorn has one melee weapon, that's it. Is he more flexible than sanguinius, in theory. In reality, encarmine is completely superior to storm's teeth; sundering blow depends on target, but maxed out on all bonuses sang and dorn both only kill 1 castellax. So really, sang

-Ferrus has one melee weapon, notice how I said "melee"? He only really has 2 guns at medium range, 3 guns unless hes assaulting. And they never synergize, something's going to be the odd target out.

-Vulkan only has one melee weapon. His whole gimmick is not rolling to hit; sang does either of his things, better. Telesto alone with 8 attacks will do more than the blast.

-Corax only has one melee weapon. Hey has options, sure. But those options are at the expense of other things; you can either amp up his offensive output (at the cost of him having a 5++) or enhance his defensiveness (at the cost of greater offensive output). There's a tradeoff, I think I've mentioned that before.

 

Back to my point, there's Fulgrim, RG, Horus, Russ, Sang and Pert that have multiple melee weapons to choose from either in game or list creation. One third isn't over half.

 


 

It's so convinient that you included rampage and charge bonuses. Especially againts multi-wound targets (by that i mean monsters vehicles walkers, not a praetors 

Well, he's the fastest primarch, who's rules want you to charge. I'm assuming the player piloting him is capable of doing that, as well as putting him fights where you can trigger rampage and aren't blatantly against the wrong target. Again, being the fastest primarch on the battlefield gives you a lot of control over the targets you can select. 

 

 

That is also great you taking into account charge mode. As if I had any problems on charge. Only if ever combat in game was Sanguinius charging things and killing it in one turn.

If that was the case - I wouldn't be here.

 I was assessing every primarch's average damage potential against a specific target, on equal terms. 

 

In general usage, with no scatter deepstrike, 12" move and rerolls to charge (while ignoring intervening models and terrain), sang should always be where he can be effective. Sure, opponents can force hard decisions, but most of the time he's getting the charge against something he's particularly suited for. See my earlier statement.

 

 

 

No you missed the point it's like Far-seeing eye of Corbulo in 8th edition, but enhanced (because primarch)  - first turn he can spend 2 points, second turn - he can spend 3 points, third turn - 4 points.

Dices are not cumulative from turn to turn.

From a background standpoint - the longer game goes - more clearly event gets. First trun future is clouded, last turn - results are the most obvious.

 

 

I understand what you're saying, but you don't understand that it's beyond overpowered. First turn, you only realistically need them for saves, unless your opponent massively screws up and lets you charge (hey guess what you can use one of those to fish one of your charge dice). With good placement, you can just use them for offensive output instead of any defensive necessity. And yes, I understood you don't pool them to the next turn, but I also understand that because they refresh with a greater amount every turn, there's more every turn.

 

Also note on the 8th ed mention, how many times do you get command reroll per game? You could feasibly use it 10 times a game turn if you had the command points to pump into it, but no one does because command points are used for other things. Choice on what to use a limited amount of resources on. You get 20 rerolls in a 5 turn game with your rules, straight up. Rerolls that incentivize you to use them every turn because they disappear and refill. 7 turn game 35, think about that.

 

 

So, you have a difficulty to kill a blob of 20 marines that stands right before you? If they deep striked - that would be even more convinient to template them.

I don't know about your Meta, but in my meta killing 20 marines is quite easy task, considering high priority target.

 

There's way more mitigation in shooting than melee. Line of sight and cover; Day of Revelation literally gives you cover in the open. Good deployment and movement pay off with increased survivability. And I never gave a difficulty level, simply stating that he should never get plain shot off the table. Also, just generally speaking, threat saturation is a very real thing in terms of shifting target priority. 

 

 

That is quite intresting assumption from someone who have problems with 20 marines, but can't see how Sanguinius can stay a few rounds killing something significant while enemy dreadnought have some spare time to walk into said combat.

 

So if by "user error" you mean "never play with someone who have units that can kill Sangy" then yes it's error. Otherwise, I'm sorry I didn't get "Sanguinius user manual"

 

And I even didn't get to watch an Iron hand dreadnoughts "i-don't-care-about-your-damage"-combo it was those pesky Iron warriors.

 

Yea, way to assume that a second time buddy. Shooting 20 marines with fearless to get to a primarch is a little different from a guy who averages 10/8 attacks on the charge depending on weapon killing marines in melee. The only mitigation is invul and possibly FNP in melee (depending on weapon); see my above point on shooting vs melee. So you presumably charge in with just sang (because we're not calculating unknown load outs of dudes coming in behind him) and kill 7.1 guys with encarmine on average or 6.7 with telesto, let's say its a blob of 20 guys with ccw and powerfist sergeant, they hit back doing .34 wounds from normal and 0.165 from fist, aka, no wounds. They lose combat by pretty much 7, plus 2 from the average bonus for a total of -9 to their LD, they flee, you sweep them.

 

That's without help from anyone else.

 

Now, fearless or stubborn change things up, but with a squad of anything there, you should not be locked in for three rounds of combat against marines. And if you did charge Sang solo into a stubborn blob of Iron Warriors like it seems you did, well then you're going to get held down long enough for an answer. That's called a misplay, once again.

 

Making mistakes on new units is normal, but demanding changes instead of learning the ins and outs is silly. As I said, every primarch suffers against leviathans; most primarchs get held down by stubborn and fearless masses. Don't throw the fastest guy somewhere he shouldn't be.

 

 

@Blindhamster I'm pretty against Sang getting foresight, as curze has nothing of the sort in his rules and they're both very comparable 


Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 21 March 2019 - 09:23 PM.


#88
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I'm kind of confused really sanguinius has targets hed good against like most primarchs he fights better than most to. Maybe just maybe dont charge your primarch into a leviathan or a squad of dreadnoughts with CCW? Like angron the best anti vehicle primarch doesnt want to fight a claw leviathan as he very well risks dying hes actually better vs knights. Leviathans are meant to fight monstrous creatures primarchs are essentially mcs in terms of their statlines the leviathans ideal melee target. A 1000 point investment iron hands dread squad is also a bad target for any melee unit never mind is it close to unkillable it's also going to punch you with 20 s10 ap2 attacks on av13 4 save models so shoot it with d or avoid the 6" movement squad with your jump pack t1 deepstriking army. Play to objectives the iron hands dread star cant score so kill the rest of his army which is small and capture objectives.

Also yeah russ was broken so they removed his second -1 to hit. Hes still strong but worse vs vehicles than spear sanguinius due to no armourbane hes also worse vs mcs since no instant death. He might beat sanguinius in a primarch fight only because his rules are very strong for fighting other primarchs but less useful vs other targets doesnt clear suzerain as well as any sword sanguinius and cant just walk up to a land raider or knight and really hope to do much at all unlike spear sanguinius.

You also gain a global army wide jump pack double use while getting dawnbreakers as troops. Much better than varagyr as troops and a 1 use howl of the death wolf.

If I was a ba player I'd be happy with sanguinius he looks pretty good to me, I'd be happy with the Angel's tears as well. I'm more concerned with the copy paste palatine blades (though they arent bad) and the fact crimson paladins are terrible.

Also the realest complaint is raldoron no jump pack option which is confusing but just build your own praetor maybe and call him azkaellon if you want a pimp sword had him the new divine blade.

#89
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Leaping Curze is no more stupid than Mortarion's Shadow of the Reaper. This is his super power after all.

I'm kind of tired of this - "Sanguinius should get more!". What you've got is a melee blener primarch that has :cuss ton of high quality attacks, demolisher HoW, and is super fast, not mentioning his ability to reroll invs when he charges. For your information people Sanguinius was NEVER portrayed as a great general, "just" a formidable fighter - and that's what he is.


That’s actually not true. The 7th Ed BA codex actually talks about how he was a great general, and others wouldn’t have said he shouldn’t be the warmaster if he wasn’t a great general. He may not have been as good of a tactician or logistical mastermind as some of the others, but that isn’t necessarily what makes a great general. However, rules can’t really convey great general like it can master logistics and such. If every great general had a special ability than the ones like Guilliman, Pert, Horus, and Dorn can’t be fairly portrayed.
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#90
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You forgot the Lion ;)

 

I agree that he was and must have been a great generl. He was a primarch after all and all primarchs were brilliant. Now, I don't want to take this discussion in a "who should be Warmaster instead of Horus and why", we had it 1000 times already BUT what I really meant is that as a commander Lion, Guilliman, Horus were the top when compared to others. I can't recall sources where you can find examples of strategic/tactical brillianca of Sanguinius, on the other hand there are plenty of mentions how terrific he was in melee.

 

After all it is just a decision FW rules staff takes - some primarchs give their armies quite a lot of buffs, other much less. I think Russ was also quite a general but all he does is howl once per game and that's it (?).



#91
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You forgot the Lion ;)

I agree that he was and must have been a great generl. He was a primarch after all and all primarchs were brilliant. Now, I don't want to take this discussion in a "who should be Warmaster instead of Horus and why", we had it 1000 times already BUT what I really meant is that as a commander Lion, Guilliman, Horus were the top when compared to others. I can't recall sources where you can find examples of strategic/tactical brillianca of Sanguinius, on the other hand there are plenty of mentions how terrific he was in melee.

After all it is just a decision FW rules staff takes - some primarchs give their armies quite a lot of buffs, other much less. I think Russ was also quite a general but all he does is howl once per game and that's it (?).


Litterally every primarch with the exception of angron is a great general. They also arent giving every primarch +1LD because it's boring. Sanguinius got his leadership because he was by far the most liked behind horus and thus the best candidate for the face of imperium secundus.

Russ is a good general as you said and his general ship ability is litterally a sw warlord trait. So the average praetor.

#92
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When I said "multiple melee weapons" I meant ones where you can mix them attacks with, like Horus. Yes, Guilliman also has two melee weapons that he's equipped with.

 

 

Back to my point, there's Fulgrim, RG, Horus, Russ, Sang and Pert that have multiple melee weapons to choose from either in game or list creation. One third isn't over half.

 

My point was not about weapons themselves - my point about flexibility. Those primarchs I listed - they don't need to think "oh what weapon should I stick on glue or magntize", or wondering what kind of enemy roster awaits you - horde-type or heavy armour. 

And again - that statistic was for nothing - it doesn't matter how many wounds on average Sang will make - if he can't kill it on charge (he can't on average) he wil simply die (s6 do nothing to AV13) whereas said Ferrus or Perturabo or Vulkan (especially Vulkan with s10 armourbane I5) will endure (3++) and eventually destroy it (s10 ap1)  but somehow they got lower numbers.

 

So you missing the flaw about his concept. Yes 8 attacks on charge s9 ap1 instand death rerolling invuln is great. And that is what everyone see and says he's a beast.

But totally missing the whole point - He don't get auto-charge by any mean - he is as crippled while deepstriking to the enemy as any other deep striking units. He is not faster than other jump infantry primarch - he moves same 12 inches (I would say Corax is much mobile across the table)

And then - he will be charged, he will be bogged down - he will face second turn of combat one way or another.

He is not THAT good on a charge to not think how to evade possible next round of combat.

His agressive charge is a credit - that you have to pay all the times you don't charge.

And whatever brilliant player you are - you can't choose only that kind of combats where you wipe units on charge - and that kind of situations will be pretty common.

But thing is - model at cost of 485 points can be negated simply by any AV13 walker that can make charge into Sanguinius.

And if I know that you have that primarch - I will hold those walkers closely to any vital unit you want to charge. 

 

So primarch which main speciality to be a beast in close combat at cost of 485 points may just watch as paint dry on a hull of dreadnoughts. Or watch birds in the sky. In any case - it's just too much points that do nothing  

 

Otherwise - for a 485 points Sanguinius only gives my army rerolls to charge for jump packers.   

 

Thong about 35 re-rolls - first of all, no - there will situations that you won't use all re-roll, because, for example  I keep 3 re-roll for assault phase and bam - didn't get into combat - rolls lost. Or I do get into combat and they were out of need.

On the other hand - rerolling armour saves first turn - easily can be used multiple times at once. Like 6 wounds - 3 you saved - 3 you re-rolling anyway. 

 

But the main thing for this prescience is that it doesn't work for shooting, it doesn't work when you charged. And somehow it works only for saves whereas on practice (in the books) it affects all the activity. 

And then again re-rolls only stabilising results - it's not a force multiplier. 

 

P.S. second half of my message somehow lost and I don't want to spent another half-hour describing things that obviously didn't matter in this conversation.

And no - that was 10 havoks with Kyr and apothecary that Sangy stuck in before Leviathan came to rip him of.


Edited by Omega-soul, 22 March 2019 - 01:59 AM.


#93
Purge the Daemon

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How about dont deepstike sanguinius within a foot of a leviathan? Also you can come in turn 1 with your deepstike and a leviathan xant charge you if it pods in so just stay away from the God killer dread. Like why is this an argument leviathans trash primarchs and archdaemons and mechanicum bots with the drill they can beat knights stay away from them they are OP in combat.
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#94
SkimaskMohawk

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My point was not about weapons themselves - my point about flexibility. Those primarchs I listed - they don't need to think "oh what weapon should I stick on glue or magntize", or wondering what kind of enemy roster awaits you - horde-type or heavy armour. 

And again - that statistic was for nothing - it doesn't matter how many wounds on average Sang will make - if he can't kill it on charge (he can't on average) he wil simply die (s6 do nothing to AV13) whereas said Ferrus or Perturabo or Vulkan (especially Vulkan with s10 armourbane I5) will endure (3++) and eventually destroy it (s10 ap1)  but somehow they got lower numbers.

 

Cool, they're more flexible; they do each specific job worse though 

 

And the stats are there to show that against the toughest vehicle you can fight, Sang does a hell of a job; better than most primarchs. You know what else helps, help. As in guys with him with, idk maybe melta bombs. Btw, they got lower results than sang because that's the math. One the first turn of combat on which a primarch charges, that's how many unsaved results get through. Another math fact for you; if you do happen to charge a Leviathan and not kill it or bust off its melee weapon do you know how many successful wounds it will do back? 0.3 Turn after that? 0.6 

 

It takes 3 rounds in combat on average for it to take off 1 wound, and then a 50% to do on average another 1 wound if it snips him (caveat that most people I've seen just use the drill but who knows who uses what in your area). So on average, with the snip proccing 50% of the time starting off the first successful, it takes 9 rounds of combat to for it to kill sang, oh and IWND gives him back 1 wound on average, meaning it takes 11 rounds on average. Or 5 and a half turns of nonstop melee.

 

Didn't you type something a while back in the thread, about being tied up too long for help to show up; you know, against a target Sang beats in one round? This takes 5 turns to throw the guy some melta bomb support.

 

 

 

But totally missing the whole point - He don't get auto-charge by any mean - he is as crippled while deepstriking to the enemy as any other deep striking units. He is not faster than other jump infantry primarch - he moves same 12 inches (I would say Corax is much mobile across the table)

 

He isn't as crippled; you don't scatter at all, with no further investment. You get to pick exactly where he comes down, with simple math of movement speeds to give yourself a buffer. He is faster than the other two jump pack primarchs, because he gets the reroll in the charge phase and gets to ignore intervening models and terrain while charging. Corax only gets rerolls if he joins infantry to enable fleet, but never gets to ignore stuff in the way. Corax is more mobile due to ongoing, but less fast due to sang's charge phase bonus.

 

 

And then - he will be charged, he will be bogged down - he will face second turn of combat one way or another.

 

 

After your complete control to where he comes in, coupled with the knowledge of 12" move and charge, you shouldn't be getting charged, at least not before you charge.

 

 

He is not THAT good on a charge to not think how to evade possible next round of combat.

His agressive charge is a credit - that you have to pay all the times you don't charge.

And whatever brilliant player you are - you can't choose only that kind of combats where you wipe units on charge - and that kind of situations will be pretty common

 

Well, as I showed earlier, against anything without an invul, by himself, he generates 9 points of combat res w/ spear. So against the average non-stubborn, non-fearless unit, guess what? He breaks them. Against 10 cataphractii, he breaks them*. Alone. He is that good

 

*Here's the math

Spoiler

 

The only times you shouldn't be getting the charge are after you wiped a unit out and they have something in position to react.

 

You can choose combats where you wipe on the charge most of the time. Stubborn and fearless aren't the most common outside primarch buffs/special characters. Theres the chaplain and command squad banner iirc that give fearless for the generic list, and I think that's about it. Only exception is of course, leviathans and that's rolling in with Sang solo.

 

 

 

Otherwise - for a 485 points Sanguinius only gives my army rerolls to charge for jump packers. 

 

If that's what you believe, we can trade legions and I'll have plenty of fun with him. We'll see a list of buffs for Corax or Curze soon after from you though lol.

 

 

Thong about 35 re-rolls - first of all, no - there will situations that you won't use all re-roll, because, for example  I keep 3 re-roll for assault phase and bam - didn't get into combat - rolls lost. Or I do get into combat and they were out of need.

On the other hand - rerolling armour saves first turn - easily can be used multiple times at once. Like 6 wounds - 3 you saved - 3 you re-rolling anyway. 

 Why won't I? Its a mechanic that's ripe for abuse, so I'll take full opportunity to maximise the refreshing rerolls. You're right that there might just not be an opportunity to burn so many; after all you start getting 4 and 5 in the middle of the game; sang can only miss so many times in combat lol

 

 

But the main thing for this prescience is that it doesn't work for shooting, it doesn't work when you charged. And somehow it works only for saves whereas on practice (in the books) it affects all the activity. 

And then again re-rolls only stabilising results - it's not a force multiplier. 

 

 

I'm losing you. Are you saying that his current thing is dumb because it only works for his armour and nothing else? Hate to break it to you, but that has nothing to do with his future seeing, its just his armour. And hit my boy Curze up with all the crazy foresight stuff; he was having visions of the future long before Sang.

 

 

P.S. second half of my message somehow lost and I don't want to spent another half-hour describing things that obviously didn't matter in this conversation.

And no - that was 10 havoks with Kyr and apothecary that Sangy stuck in before Leviathan came to rip him of.

 

So let me do some guessing. You had encarmine. He used Shatter Assault on you. You were by yourself. 

 

This means you lost your hammer of wrath, lost one of your bonus attacks, and lost rampage. You kill a pitiful 2.9 on the charge per average then 3.3 after that since rampage is back on.

 

I'm sorry, that's a showcase of which unit not to charge and misplaying to the extreme, if all of the above were true. 


Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 22 March 2019 - 05:33 AM.

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#95
Omega-soul

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I have a strong feeling that we play in parallel universes.

In my Universe  - I play(test)ed sanguinius with spear.

In my Universe - I tried to tie up leviathan that was 22 inches away with cataphractii

In my Universe - I used 485 points assault model (with support) to destoy  1) enemy warlod 2) vital shooting unit

 

So in my Universe, me and my opponent roll randomly - not strictly what statistic says. So his Leviathan kills my cataphracti faster than I expected - get consolidation move, then move etc. On the other side I charged with sanguinius (without support, because they dead by that point).

In my mind - glorius Sanguinius should rip and tear whole squad. But there goes shatter assault - challenge 7 attacks, I hit 4, I wound 3 - apothecary (obviously) and 2 havocs die.

And then I stand in havocs 2 full rounds - because 6 attacks s6 ap2 with spear is obviously not enough to wipe them out.

 

So in my universe - I don't get tasty chain of units that Sanguinius can eliminate 1 by 1 every turn on charge. In my universe rolls are not perfectly statictical  - and when it comes to Sanguinius with spear - he is messed up if something goes slightly wrong (and it is expected in every game). And opponent got a little better roll with Leviathan killing my cataphracti.

 

In your universe, apparently I should hide my 485 point best assault primarch somewhere on the table because spooky Leviathan.

In your universe, apparently opponents are stupid and don't know how to counter-charge, how to make screens, and how to concentrate forces playing against deep strike army.

Also, apparently in your Universe no Iron warrior uses Breacher squad.

 

 

 

 

 Against 10 cataphractii, he breaks them*
The only times you shouldn't be getting the charge are after you wiped a unit out

 

And again apparently in your Universe 10 man Cataphractii have a casual walk mid-field.

In my Universe ,10 cataphracti use Spartan, and some characters support.

 

 

 

 

 they are OP in combat.

Because Leviathan is what I regulary fight with.

It's nice to see you noticed they OP in combat. I guess you have to be the Emperor of mankind to be that much usefull on the table, not some squishy golden feather-boy primarch at 485 points.


Edited by Omega-soul, 22 March 2019 - 09:55 AM.


#96
Purge the Daemon

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I'd hope the emperor could beat one but I honestly doubt it would be quick unless they Make his sword ridiculous. Primarchs dont like leviathans they'd rather fight knights you have a better chance.

And yes you can have bad rolls what primarch do you think would have done better there? Angron so hed die to the overwatch? Or horus because he does less damage? Like sanguinius has perfectly fine damage output. Your spear never loses instant death if apothecaries are what bothers you. Or if you want to go sword rad grenades are great to out on a forgelord to join your death star.

#97
Gorgoff

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Bad rolls in one game are by no means a valid argument in a discussion if some unit is good.
No unit is good if you roll crap.
And to be honest:
" But there goes shatter assault - challenge 7 attacks, I hit 4, I wound 3 - apothecary (obviously) and 2 havocs die.

And then I stand in havocs 2 full rounds - because 6 attacks s6 ap2 with spear is obviously not enough to wipe them out."
That was your mistake and not an example for a bad unit. You just charged the wrong enemy and obviously forgot that the spear has ID.
So you made two mistakes and blame Sanguinius rules for that.
Meh.
"Also, apparently in your Universe no Iron warrior uses Breacher squad"
In my universe the BA players are clever enough not to charge a unit which nullifies your charge bonus when that is the biggest asset of the charging unit and instead shoot the Breachers with small arms fire. ;)
So no, the dice where not the reason you lost but instead your mistakes. Which is very very often the case when someone blames his dice for being naughty. Your are not the first and for sure not the last one to do that.

"In my mind - glorius Sanguinius should rip and tear whole squad"
It comes all down to that I think.
Obviously you haven't realised that 30k is a game and not a novell. Primarchs can't bet everything because it would be so boring and unfair for your opponent.
There are units you have to avoid with EVERY Primarch and everyone hase other things to be feared of. And thats a good thing.

"In your universe, apparently opponents are stupid and don't know how to counter-charge, how to make screens, and how to concentrate forces playing against deep strike army."
Which is great but what has that to do with Sanguinius rules?
The opponent can outmaneuver and outsmart you.
So what?
Are you proposing to make Sanguinius rules so good that he can smash everything and that your opponent can't do :cuss against it? Who'd play against you when it would be this way?

I can tell you how that would turn out. Just ask the Talons of the Emperor players how it feels when everybody hates your army for being op. :D
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#98
Slips

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Just a quick pop in to make sure that we keep the tone of this conversation respectful.

Otherwise, carry on.
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#99
Omega-soul

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Otherwise, carry on.

It's really hard to, as goalpost is always moving.

 

First - was me "never played"

Then -  it was a bad move

Now it's the dice that doesn't make it.

 

 

 

Bad rolls in one game are by no means a valid argument

 

And it is never was argument - it wasn't BAD dice roll - it was an example of a common case that will happen to anyone.

 

 

 

 

 You just charged the wrong enemy and obviously forgot that the spear has ID. 

 

And please keep me out of your theorising if you can't even read that Apothecary was killed in first place.

So the only nullified bonus was HoW and -1 attack.

If that's what ruins Sanguinius - I don't have any words for you.

 

But if you'll stop being too critical you'll get what I mean.

 

If dedicated assault Primarch at cost of 485 points who got just one job - wreck faces on charges -  can't impose enough damage to a squad of 10 havocs then it's something wrong.

It was 7 attacks on 3+ I got 4 (no sixes), and one MC reroll - got 5 - 2+ wound = 4 wounds, one saved to refractor field, 1 kill apothecary (ID) and 2 havocs.

 

I don't want to argue how bad that dice roll was (it wasn't bad - it's pretty normal - it's not 7 ones and twos)

I don't want to argue the strategic decisions - you were not there, you simply no nothing about it.

 

I gave you example what critical flaws that model have. And it's not just general statements like Sanguinius is vulnerable in psychic phase, or how usefull he is for the army.

It's flaw in thing that he should do very best for every 485 point. He is unreliable for that points price especially when we compare to God-shattering-amazingly-marvelous Leviathan.

 

 

 

Are you proposing to make Sanguinius rules so good that he can smash everything and that your opponent can't do :cuss against it?

 

Not at all - personally i would like to see him as valuable addition to army with strong army bonuses and less winged-Angron-berserk.

In other threads I already said spam of attacks is not particulary sanguinius speciality.

Sanguinius is typical "paladin" type of warrior, monster slayer - because main concept of Blood angels is "Beheading" and Sanguinius is the best "beheader" - whereas in current rules he rely on onslaught tactics. And if he fails to do this at charge - he probably won't make it at all. 

 

I would better have 4-5 superstrong attacks against one model, than flurry of mediocre attacks.



#100
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Trust me, as someone who plays Dorn, using sundering blow on a charge for AT MOST (when including charge bonus and maximum rampage) 4 Attacks at S9 Ap2 Shred and Instant death and only 2 such attacks but at S8 in subsequent rounds (otherwise its twice as many at S6 ap2 Shred), Sanguinius has it pretty good in terms of combat.

 

Although, to be fair, Dorn should cost at least 425 points with what he does now since his buffs.

 

And because this is a dice game, you definitely always want to be rolling more dice than less especially when their quality will be marginally different.

 

Also, I have to wonder, what would those 4-5 attacks you'd rather have look like?


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